What Do You Think Are The Most Effective Karate Styles?

[Ippon Ken]

1 & 2) That is what has been the point of several of my questions to you.
What characteristics do you consider qualifies a style to be "Okianwan" and what doesn't?

Concerning the phrase “agree to disagree”........whenever I have seen that written on these boards it has been written as a copout by people that can’t support or convey their opinions with anything.

Well I think homeboy answered that for you when he said that he "never claimed Renshinkan was Okinawan karate". He then said that it was from the Kyan lineage. Uh-huh. That's true for a lot of modern karate. That's like saying Japanese Shito Ryu and Shotokan are "Matsumura-Ha and Miyagi-Ha". C'mon now. You live on the mainland Robert. You get to see all the McDojo in Japan, well at least in parts of Tokyo.

If I see a Shorinji Ryu or Shorin Ryu looking style that is really concentraing on long and wide stances, or a lot of really acrobatic kicking, very little tuite, few 2-person drills and lots of point sparring I'm thinking "oh Japanese karate". That's that. If it's a Richard Kim-esque style of Shorinji Ryu, then it is basically no different than Nisei Shito Ryu or Shotokan to me. We're talking about Okinawan karate which I've been training in for over 20 years, both stateside and in SE Asia. I can tell a stylist in a quick minute. Do Naihanchi Shodan and I can tell what ryu/ryuha you're from. But like I said, good karate is good karate.

To be sure you do good karate, after you get Shodan enter another dojo of a different ryu and see what similarities and differences there are. Hohan Soken use to encourage his students to do this. From there you can guage if what you do is crap or OK. To get a different angle on Japanese vs. Okinawan ryuha do both at some time in your life. Look for teachers with great reps and train. See what you think you know.

I don't need to back out of nothing bruh'. I know just as much about real Okinawan karate as you do, if not more. Quit jumping to conclusions and "somebody hold their horses"!

Peace...

 

[RRouuselot]

1)Well I think homeboy answered that for you when he said that he "never claimed Renshinkan was Okinawan karate". 2)He then said that it was from the Kyan lineage. Uh-huh. That's true for a lot of modern karate. That's like saying Japanese Shito Ryu and Shotokan are "Matsumura-Ha and Miyagi-Ha". C'mon now. You live on the mainland Robert. You get to see all the McDojo in Japan, well at least in parts of Tokyo.

3)If I see a Shorinji Ryu or Shorin Ryu looking style that is really concentraing on long and wide stances, or a lot of really acrobatic kicking, very little tuite, few 2-person drills and lots of point sparring I'm thinking "oh Japanese karate". That's that. If it's a Richard Kim-esque style of Shorinji Ryu, then it is basically no different than Nisei Shito Ryu or Shotokan to me. We're talking about Okinawan karate which 4)I've been training in for over 20 years, both stateside and in SE Asia. I can tell a stylist in a quick minute. Do Naihanchi Shodan and I can tell what ryu/ryuha you're from. But like I said, good karate is good karate.

To be sure you do good karate, after you get Shodan enter another dojo of a different ryu and see what similarities and differences there are. Hohan Soken use to encourage his students to do this. From there you can guage (I think you mean “gauge” don’t you?)if what you do is crap or OK. To get a different angle on Japanese vs. Okinawan ryuha do both at some time in your life. Look for teachers with great reps and train. See what you think you know.

I don't need to back out of nothing bruh'. 5)I know just as much about real Okinawan karate as you do, if not more. Quit jumping to conclusions and "somebody hold their horses"!

Peace...

1) No he never did...in fact I don’t think I read where ANYBODY on this thread said it was Okinawan.
2) And it was corroborated from several different sources that it was a Kyan linage.....prove it’s not if you don’t think it is.
3)Guess you don’t get out much. I have seen exactly what you just described in several dojo IN Okinawa.
4) Really? Where did you train, with whom and for how long? The only reason I bring it up is because you did. Will you grace us with this information?
5) Is that so..........?

Ipponken,

Like several others on this BBs you get insulting & defensive when you can’t prove what you claim or someone asks for more details about your posts or claims you make. If you want to be taken seriously I would suggest you starting supplying facts that can somehow be corroborated.

 

[TimoS]

Well I think homeboy answered that for you when he said that he "never claimed Renshinkan was Okinawan karate". He then said that it was from the Kyan lineage. Uh-huh.

You apparently still don't believe that Shorinji ryu Renshinkan is a karate style in Kyan lineage, at least that's how I read this.

Once again then. Here are some Kyan's students: Zenryo Shimabukuro, Joen Nakazato, Kori Hisataka, Shoshin Nagamine, Tatsuo Shimabukuro. There are more, but those are the ones I remember without checking. Here are some links that confirm this:
http://www.seibukan.org/history/kyan.html
http://www.atlantickarateclub.ca/Zanshin/V02I02/art03.html
http://www.harryskelter.plus.com/kyan.html
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/history_of_the_martial_arts/98594

Shorinji ryu Renshinkan was founded by the late Isamu Tamotsu. He was a student of (at least) Zenryo Shimabukuro and Joen Nakazato. As to which kata he learned from which of his teachers is still something that is not totally clear. However, it is a fact that the official kata set of Renshinkan are Seisan, Ananku, Wanshu, Chinto, Gojushiho, Bassai and Kushanku (also Tokumine no kun and some Sai kata that I can't remember). According to official Renshinkan history, which is confirmed by the book written by Isamu Tamotsu's widow, Zenryo Shimabukuro only taught Tamotsu two kata, the rest came from Joen Nakazato. I know that Seibukan says otherwise, so who knows ? Irrelevant anyhow, because both sensei were students of Kyan

Some links once again:
http://www.shoreikan.net/en/history.htm
http://www.seibukan.org/history/correct.html
http://www3.sympatico.ca/jeffrey.muir/jeffkdev.htm
http://www.judoinfo.com/karateranks.htm
http://www.bakerracinekarate.com/

I have practised on occasion the Seibukan versions of Wanshu and Seisan, maybe also Ananku, can't be sure of that anymore and they are very similar to what we're practising. Coincidence ? Hardly! I have not had the opportunity to see what Joen Nagazato's karate looks like, because it isn't practised here in Finland

Also, I don't know why you keep referring to Richard Kim all the time when talking about Renshinkan. Richard Kim's style has only one thing in common with what we're practising: the name Shorinji.

If you have some facts that say otherwise about anything I've said, I would definetely like to know them.

And as for claiming to be Okinawan karate, here's what I said in post #46:

Because our lineage from Kyan is Zenryo Shimabukuro and Joen Nakazato to Isamu Tamotsu (and his student Motomu Ikubo is my sensei's sensei) and although my contact with Okinawan karate is limited to few visits per year to a Seibukan dojo near where my parents live, I haven't seen too much of a difference between these two styles (but, like I said, I don't have much contact towards Okinawan karate and besides, at 1. kyu I'm still very much a beginner)

NOWHERE am I saying that Renshinkan is Okinawan, just that it is in my limited experience very similar to Shorin ryu Seibukan. Of course there are differences between them, but also there are similarities.

 

[RRouuselot]

NOWHERE am I saying that Renshinkan is Okinawan, just that it is in my limited experience very similar to Shorin ryu Seibukan. Of course there are differences between them, but also there are similarities.

I have seen differences between schools of Shorin Ryu in Okinawa. So ipponken’s argument doesn’t really hold much water.

 

[RRouuselot]

........1)You live on the mainland Robert. You get to see all the McDojo in Japan, well at least in parts of Tokyo.

If I see a Shorinji Ryu or Shorin Ryu looking style that is really concentraing on long and wide stances, or a lot of really 2)acrobatic kicking, very little 3)tuite, few 2-person drills and lots of 4)point sparring I'm thinking "oh Japanese karate".
5)I know just as much about real Okinawan karate as you do, if not more. 6)Quit jumping to conclusions and "somebody hold their horses"!

1) Actually I get to see many in Okinawa as well as Osaka and Kyoto.

2) You mean like jumping up and kicking a bridge while standing on a barge that was floating under it??? That’s a stunt Kyan was famous for. :boing2:

3) tuite is a word that was coined by my teacher many years ago by taking the Okinawan word tui (tori in Japanese) and the Japanese word te and combining them together. Not many dojo in Okinawa use this word let alone in Japan. And on that note not many dojo in Okinawa practice tuite.

4) At the last 3 World Tournaments in Okinawa the only sparring was “point sparring” almost identical to the "tippy tap crap" done on the mainland of Japan.

5) Obviously you don’t or wouldn’t have to write this down for you.

6) My comments are based on your uninformed view.

 

[RRouuselot]

1)Also, I don't know why you keep referring to Richard Kim all the time when talking about Renshinkan. Richard Kim's style has only one thing in common with what we're practising: the name Shorinji.

2)If you have some facts that say otherwise about anything I've said, I would definetely like to know them.

1) Maybe he is/was a Kim student.............

2) Me too.

 

[TimoS]

lots of point sparring I'm thinking "oh Japanese karate".

One more point about this: yes, we do point sparring, but we do it full contact with armor, like in this picture or this. Here's another from the Renshinkan homepage itself or this from Ikubo sensei homepage.

 

[RRouuselot]

One more point about this: yes, we do point sparring, but we do it full contact with armor, like in this picture or this. Here's another from the Renshinkan homepage itself or this from Ikubo sensei homepage.

"Point sparring" in mainland Japan is not done full contact like in the photos you provided except for a very small handfull of dojo. The JKA/JKF do not do full contact sparring/tournaments. The sparring in the photos you put up are more like the type that is done "old style" dojo in Okinawa.....however, many dojo have gone over to to the "Japanese" style since they can enter more tournaments that way. Sad but true. I can't help but think that the art suffers from doing the "Japanese" style sparring.
Thanks for posting the photos!

 

[Ippon Ken]

"Point sparring" in mainland Japan is not done full contact like in the photos you provided except for a very small handfull of dojo. The JKA/JKF do not do full contact sparring/tournaments. The sparring in the photos you put up are more like the type that is done "old style" dojo in Okinawa.....however, many dojo have gone over to to the "Japanese" style since they can enter more tournaments that way. Sad but true. I can't help but think that the art suffers from doing the "Japanese" style sparring.
Thanks for posting the photos!

Alright. I'll admit it. You never said that Renshinkan was Okinawan, just that it derived from Kyan's karate. I misunderstood that part of your discussion.

Obviously Kyan was a noted kicker. Like Machimura he was wiry and athletic. So am I to understand that the Renshinkan is very similar to Seibukan? Cool. I learned something new. I never doubted your style, just that it was a Japanese style of karate.

Rob,
I'm sure you've seen a lot of crap karate in Japan. This includes Okinawa. FYI I trained for many years in the Philippines under the auspices of Shorin Ryu Shorinkan Okinawan Karate-do (Hanshi Shuguro Nakazato). My sensei was Ulysses Aquino. It too was a very athletic style, and we learned every kick imaginable. So I know what you speak of. We had pretty long and broad stances, and it was a very formals setting. In SD he emphasized hand techs and low kicks. In kumite we were pretty hardcore too.

Whatever. I switched to Matsumura Seito under Ron Lindsey and have been with that style for years now. I have never met a practitioner or teacher like him. He can definitely "practice what he teaches". Most of the karate I've seen was very unrealistic.. In fact Yuichi Kuda commented to Sensei Lindsey before he passed away that the only legit old school karate in the future would probably come from teachers like Suenaka, Lindsey and Ohl. Those are all shinshii outside of Japan or Okinawa. I think he was right.

Anyway, there you have it. I have yudansha ranking, and have done judo, boxing and GJJ. Sorry to Timo for being presumptuous. I know you're proud of what you do. As well you should be. It's great to see that others are dedicated to their art and selves. Safe training.

 

[TimoS]

"Point sparring" in mainland Japan is not done full contact like in the photos you provided except for a very small handfull of dojo. The JKA/JKF do not do full contact sparring/tournaments. The sparring in the photos you put up are more like the type that is done "old style" dojo in Okinawa.....however, many dojo have gone over to to the "Japanese" style since they can enter more tournaments that way. Sad but true. I can't help but think that the art suffers from doing the "Japanese" style sparring.
Thanks for posting the photos!

Well, from what I've understood is that because Renshinkan kumite is full contact with protectors, they hold their own championships. There might be other reasons behind it also, because I remember sensei telling us once about history that in the beginning people would participate in "inter-style" championships, but that Renshinkan trained people were using some unorthodox techiques that the people (and judges) from other styles didn't like :idunno: I don't know how often people from Renshinkan participate in "regular" tournaments. I heard from my friends that Matsuoi sensei encouraged us to take part in them at least once to gain some experience (I was on summer vacation when he said this)

 

[TimoS]

So am I to understand that the Renshinkan is very similar to Seibukan?

My experience in Seibukan is very limited, but from the little I've seen, I think they are quite similar, at least the way Matsuoi sensei teaches. Kata are a bit different and our stance is higher. In fact, many of the senior Seibukan practitioners here in Finland started in Renshinkan, then for some reason decided to switch styles. I wasn't around when this happened, so I've only heard some information about the split, mostly second hand. I know one guy over at e-budo who used to be in Renshinkan and is now in Seibukan, but unfortunately it seems that he doesn't post here. He could give you more information about the differences and similarities

 

[RRouuselot]

Well, from what I've understood is that because Renshinkan kumite is full contact with protectors, they hold their own championships. There might be other reasons behind it also, because I remember sensei telling us once about history that in the beginning people would participate in "inter-style" championships, but that Renshinkan trained people were using some unorthodox techiques that the people (and judges) from other styles didn't like :idunno: I don't know how often people from Renshinkan participate in "regular" tournaments. I heard from my friends that Matsuoi sensei encouraged us to take part in them at least once to gain some experience (I was on summer vacation when he said this)

Most Assoc. hold their own tournaments and "outside" styles are welcome to join if certain conditions are met....sometimes that means joining their association, (which is a royal pain in the butt in Japan....ask me in private if you want to know) sometimes it just means following their rules for the tournament.
As with your style we do full contact fighting so if we were to go to each other’s tournament I doubt it would be difficult to adjust to each other’s rules.
Many styles do not like “outside” styles to join their tournaments because of judging discrepancies. I experienced this first hand when I was a JKF judge years ago. I judged the kumite and kata and during the kumite I didn’t see much I could award a point to because of the non-contact style of fighting they do.

 

[RRouuselot]

.............Rob,
I'm sure you've seen a lot of crap karate in Japan. This includes Okinawa. FYI I trained for many years in the Philippines under the auspices of Shorin Ryu Shorinkan Okinawan Karate-do (Hanshi Shuguro Nakazato). My sensei was Ulysses Aquino. It too was a very athletic style, and we learned every kick imaginable. So I know what you speak of. We had pretty long and broad stances, and it was a very formals setting. In SD he emphasized hand techs and low kicks. In kumite we were pretty hardcore too.

Whatever. 1)I switched to Matsumura Seito under Ron Lindsey and have been with that style for years now. I have never met a practitioner or teacher like him. He can definitely "practice what he teaches". 2)Most of the karate I've seen was very unrealistic.. 3)In fact Yuichi Kuda commented to Sensei Lindsey before he passed away that the only legit old school karate in the future would probably come from teachers like Suenaka, Lindsey and Ohl. Those are all shinshii outside of Japan or Okinawa. I think he was right...........

1) I and a few others were supposed to meet Ron when he came to Tokyo a few years ago but something happend and it all fell through.

2) Can’t say as I disagree with that. I know some people try hard and think what they do is the real deal and that’s great. But honestly speaking over the last 20+ years I have seen a LOT of different kind of martial arts and some are real crap.

3) Nice compliment but I know more than a few people that are doing the REAL DEAL OLD SCHOOL Okinawan stuff.

 

[Jussi Häkkinen]

I know one guy over at e-budo who used to be in Renshinkan and is now in Seibukan, but unfortunately it seems that he doesn't post here.

Did someone mention me?


Hi Robert, Timo and other familiar lads.:asian:

 

[Jussi Häkkinen]

It seems that you have had an interesting (and heated) discussion about Renshinkan's history and origins.
Renshinkan does belong to Kyan Chotoku's lineage and is technically close to Seibukan, which is an Okinawan school of Shorin-ryu karate, founded by Zenryo Shimabukuro, who was a student of Kyan Chotoku. I'll now cover a couple of claims about the kata history of Renshinkan.


Claims about Renshinkan kata history:


Claim 1:Isamu Tamotsu learned 2 kata from Shimabukuro (who, according to author, did not know any other kata than Ananku and Chinto), 2 from Joen Nakazato (mentioned are "bo-jutsu" and Chinto again) and Kusanku from Yonaha Seigyu. Other kata he did learn from various Okinawan teachers.

Source: Toshu Kuken, Isamu Tamotsu, book by Sachie Tamotsu (wife of late Isamu Tamotsu).

Status: False. Yonaha Seigyu was a folk musician, not a karateka. He had studied karate under Itosu when in school. Yonaha did work as an assistant in a karate organization (headed by Zenryo Shimabukuro), but wasn't a karate master or karateka. This is a common custom in Okinawa. (Yonaha Seigyu never had karate students and is also mentioned in Mark Bishop's book Okinawan Karate - Teachers, styles and secret techniques as an Okinawan folk musician).
If Yonaha would have taught Tamotsu his Kusanku, it would have been a different version - not Chatan Yara no Kusanku, which is trained in Kyan's lineage (and in Renshinkan).


Claim 2: (Style name issue) After learning two kata from Zenryo Shimabukuro, Isamu Tamotsu trained for 3 years under Joen Nakazato, learning Wanshu, Seisan, Gojushi-ho and Bassai. That's why style was named as Shorinji-ryu, instead of Shorin-ryu.

Source: Finnish Renshinkan-sensei.

Status: False. Finnish sensei has admitted that he came up with Nakazato's part by himself.
Seibukan used the kanji for "Shorinji" in the time when Tamotsu studied karate under Zenryo Shimabukuro. It was only natural that Tamotsu-sensei continued using the name he had learned for the style.
Seibukan changed the name from Shorinji-ryu to Shorin-ryu in mid-60's. Writing form still was (and is) Sukunaihayashi.


Claim 3: Tamotsu trained under Zenryo Shimabukuro and learned the empty handed kata of Kyan, then learned Tokumine no Kun (bo-kata) from Joen Nakazato.

Sources: Iwao Tamotsu (current head of Renshinkan), interview, year 2000. Zenpo Shimabukuro (son of Zenryo Shimabukuro, current head of Seibukan, remembers Isamu Tamotsu excellently). Joen Nakazato (Student of Kyan Chotoku, bo-teacher of Isamu Tamotsu, head of Shorinji-ryu Kyudokan), book Kyudo. Lineage chart on the wall of Shihogakusha dojo of Renshinkan (photo from 1960's), Gekkan Karatedo magazine, interview of Isamu Tamotsu.

Status: True.


I think that this is enough to cover some misunderstandings that may have been created here about the history and status of Renshinkan. So, yes, Renshinkan does belong to Kyan Chotoku's lineage. Renshinkan is Japanese karate (not Okinawan karate) and the way it is practiced is rather clearly typical for Japanese karate, instead of the Okinawan, kata-centered, way.

 

[TimoS]

Did someone mention me?

Noooo, someone totally else :drinkbeer Welcome aboard Jussi

 

[TimoS]

Claim 2: (Style name issue) After learning two kata from Zenryo Shimabukuro, Isamu Tamotsu trained for 3 years under Joen Nakazato, learning Wanshu, Seisan, Gojushi-ho and Bassai. That's why style was named as Shorinji-ryu, instead of Shorin-ryu.

Source: Finnish Renshinkan-sensei.

Status: False. Finnish sensei has admitted that he came up with Nakazato's part by himself.

Thanks Jussi for that. As I've said to you, I've been wondering about especially that part, because it simply didn't make sense. But back when I wrote that last year, we were still part of Renshinkan so I didn't want to start an argument like the one on e-budo when I said that our Gojushiho in Finland is partially different from the one taught by Iwao Tamotsu Fortunately we've separated ourselves from Renshinkan nowadays, so I don't have to be so careful anymore

 

[Jussi Häkkinen]

Thanks Jussi for that. As I've said to you, I've been wondering about especially that part, because it simply didn't make sense.

My pleasure. After all, Renshinkan's history issue seems to be a Seibukan-issue as well, and I'm only pleased when I can help in separating fact and fiction.

But back when I wrote that last year, we were still part of Renshinkan so I didn't want to start an argument like the one on e-budo when I said that our Gojushiho in Finland is partially different from the one taught by Iwao Tamotsu

Heh, I understand that well. And I also understand the view of pure Renshinkanist when it comes to Finnish version, especially since the Finnish version was taught under the same name back then.

Fortunately we've separated ourselves from Renshinkan nowadays, so I don't have to be so careful anymore

Certainly makes everything more simple.

 

[Ippon Ken]

Thank you for those clarifications Hakkinen Shinshii. Your stuff is always on point and first rate.

So was I wrong again Rob? Uh-uh, bruh'. I don't think so. You tend to jump to conclusions yourself, and have many heated arguments on many forums. I think one of the most important attributes a martial artist can possess are keen powers of observation. It's funny that I totally know you, but you have no clue as to who I am. My posts are the same on all these sites, so you should have figured it out early on.

So why did your meeting with my sensei fall through? I'm sure you would have seen the REAL REAL DEAL OLD SCHOOL KARATE if you guys would have met. Oh and those bunkai for Naihanchi you had on e-budo? Stretching it is putting things mildly. When you do a cross-body armbar watch the placement of your legs, especially the one near the head. Make sure the arm is thumb towards the ceiling, and use more of a 45 degree angle and your hips. Squeeze the thighs.

My sensei was the president of Yuichi Kuda's Matsumura Kenpo org.. Kuda was also a senior student of Nakamura. Hence the kenpo moniker on his brand of Seito (a more Japanized sport version complete with Bogu sparring and whatnot). A better term for what Oyata coined would be ti or even kyushojutsu, and it's present to a greater degree in Matsumura Seito than it is in Okinawan Kenpo.

Do you use the Niahanchi dachi when doing your Naihanchi (the pigeon-toed stance)? If not then you're missing a lot in your Naihanchi training. BTW I think that Japanese Shitoryu is basically like Shotokan, and that won't change because it is. Any style that uses deep wide stances, is not a truly effective self-preservation or even "punching/boxing/striking" system. It's gendai budo, Korean "karate" or modern wushu. It's good for money, perpetuating the philosophical essence of tang/sui hand and jiyu kumite, three very minor aspects of "empty-hand" which have become its primary focus.

So you post your real name and that makes you somehow more credible and a authority on real karate? Hahaha! Whateva' man! Keep doing you and I'll do me, but quit with the persumptuous behavior. You never know who you're talking too. I do one half of the art that your kenpo derived from. Remember, the element of surprise can be your greatest weapon.

Peace or Osu or whatever you Nipponese wanna-bes say.

Oh yeah. The best karate for self-preservation is real Okinawan karate. That ring crap means diddly except early arthritis, multiple surgeries and hope technique based on goho and forced action. Fighting for the sake of fighting before you have to fight to save your **** for real is stupid and, again, means nathan ("nothing" for you street vernacular challenged) except "kicking your own ***". Sport is highly overrated, just like any commercial enterprise. The Pedro Sauer BJJ guy who started this thread just wanted to diss karate-ka. He doesn't know any real karate styles or karate-ka so he should shut his trap and learn. Now go hug some sweaty guys like you were 8 years old all over again, and put karate out of your mind until you see some real stuff. O-B-L-I-V-I-O-U-S!!!

 

[RRouuselot]

1) So was I wrong again Rob? Uh-uh, bruh'. I don't think so. You tend to jump to conclusions yourself, and have many heated arguments on many forums. I think one of the most important attributes a martial artist can possess are keen powers of observation. It's funny that I totally know you, but you have no clue as to who I am. My posts are the same on all these sites, so you should have figured it out early on.

2) So why did your meeting with my sensei fall through? I'm sure you would have seen the REAL REAL DEAL OLD SCHOOL KARATE if you guys would have met.

3) Oh and those bunkai for Naihanchi you had on e-budo? Stretching it is putting things mildly. When you do a cross-body armbar watch the placement of your legs, especially the one near the head.

4) Make sure the arm is thumb towards the ceiling, and use more of a 45 degree angle and your hips. Squeeze the thighs.

5) A better term for what Oyata coined would be ti or even kyushojutsu, and it's present to a greater degree in Matsumura Seito than it is in Okinawan Kenpo.

6) So you post your real name and that makes you somehow more credible and a authority on real karate? Hahaha! Whateva' man! Keep doing you and I'll do me, but quit with the persumptuous behavior. You never know who you're talking too. I do one half of the art that your kenpo derived from. Remember, the element of surprise can be your greatest weapon. Peace or Osu or whatever you Nipponese wanna-bes say.

7) Oh yeah. The best karate for self-preservation is real Okinawan karate. That ring crap means diddly except early arthritis, multiple surgeries and hope technique based on goho and forced action. Fighting for the sake of fighting before you have to fight to save your **** for real is stupid and, again, means nathan ("nothing" for you street vernacular challenged) except "kicking your own ***". Sport is highly overrated, just like any commercial enterprise. The Pedro Sauer BJJ guy who started this thread just wanted to diss karate-ka. He doesn't know any real karate styles or karate-ka so he should shut his trap and learn. Now go hug some sweaty guys like you were 8 years old all over again, and put karate out of your mind until you see some real stuff. O-B-L-I-V-I-O-U-S!!!

1)Uh??? What’s up with the attitude?? When did I say you were wrong about anything?

2)Something on his end. I am not sure if he even came to Japan or not. All I know is there were some guys in Tokyo that were supposed to meet up and it got canceled.

3)Obviously you didn’t read the whole thread.

4)I am well aware of how the technique is done. Actually you want to keep the thumb more down palm up since it keeps the elbow from being able to bend. With the thumb up they can try and do a bicep curl and weaken the technique.
You should have read the whole thread and would know I said the photos were “posed” to show possible interpretations of the kata and not meant to instruct.


5)Not sure what you are going on about here.

6)?????

7)Thanks for your insightful comments.

1) I and a few others were supposed to meet Ron when he came to Tokyo a few years ago but something happened and it all fell through.

2) Can’t say as I disagree with that. I know some people try hard and think what they do is the real deal and that’s great. But honestly speaking over the last 20+ years I have seen a LOT of different kind of martial arts and some are real crap.

3) Nice compliment but I know more than a few people that are doing the REAL DEAL OLD SCHOOL Okinawan stuff.

I think if you use those keen powers of observation you talked about and re-read my post you will notice a few things.



2) Can’t say as I disagree with = I agree with you.

3) I meant that was a nice thing for him to say to/about John but there are still some folks that do the “old stuff”



Honestly I am amazed that you got so pissed off over what I wrote.