What Do You Think Are The Most Effective Karate Styles?

[parmandjack]

I believe this question, while innocent enough, is truly an inexperienced question, although I have seen numerous inexperienced but honest attempts to answer this question from different angles...

The fact of the matter is two fold...

Today, people speak of "street-fighting" as if it is some quasi-mystical, indominable offensive/defensive "art"...

....it is not....

A "street-fighter" is what you and I were, and every other martial artist was prior to beginning training in our chosen arts.

A "street-fighter" is simply someone unskilled in fighting disciples... there is no "course" there is no "curriculum"...

Now to qualify my last statement, while a "street-fighter" is unskilled in fighting techniques, they might be a tough guy who can take a punch and could be "skilled" in the "street-fighting" techniques of pulling your hair, sucker punches, kicks to the crotch, swinging a stick ,etc... as well as outright muscles...

Many years ago, I grew up in Glasgow Scotland, one of the roughest cities in Europe, and where "street-fighting" cut its teeth. "Street-Fighting" was smashing your enemies face in with a rock, picking up a broken bottle and slashing you with it, swing a stick with nails driven through the end at any accessable part of your opponents body, slashing you with a hidden razor, etc...

...However, none of those "techniques" fall in to the area of un-defeatable, or else you and I would never have chosen the discipline of a martial art, we would all be "street-fighters"...right???

... and don't forget... any martial artist can also revert to pulling your hair or sucker punch you or otherwise use any other "technique" of the "street-fighter" if your skill level in karate, judo, kung-fu or in any other art is not up to the task of defeating your opponent... they may be bigger, stronger, faster and meaner than you, and had a few more fights than you so are not surprised and stunned the first time they take a hit ( I have seen many "martial artists"... stop dead in their tracks like a deer in the headlights, the first time they get hit)

The difference between you and the "street-fighter" is that once his bag of dirty tricks is empty, he may as well put his hands in his pockets and go home, or perhaps lie down on the ground, because if he didn't get you in the beginning with the cheap shots, then his repetoire of tools is used up, and he is now at your mercy...

This is of course, assuming that the "martial artist" in this "street-fighter" scenerio is any good to begin with....I know black belts who shouldn't be on the same training floor as some white belts...

It all depends on the person....

As for one form of karate over another.. there is no answer... and no, it does NOT come down to "full contact tournaments or full contact training etc..." regardless of what anyone here sez...

If I use full contact in an encounter with you after I finish this post, and I target specific areas of your body... I WILL kill you... that is not a question... that is a fact... how can anyone then tell you that because of "full-contact" training, this or that style is better?

The purpose of karate training is to either kill or permanently maim your opponent as quickly as possible...period...

If you attack me or my loved ones... I want you to die, not me or them... that is what real karate training is all about... not pads and tournies to rack up points and trophies for shallow strikes that got a point faster than the opponent, but that in real life application wouldn't have stopped or injured them in any way... sure ... there is sport karate these days.. but I am not talking or interested in sports karate, nor are you I believe... I am talking about real karate... real application... real mindset to do damage when necessary... and willing to take it to the final deadly outcome when and if necessary...

Putting pads on both yourself and your oppoent in a tournament only does one thing...it allows you both to flail at each other with poor technique, as both opponents know that they are protected with pads and wont really sustain any life threatening injuries... with that in mind... technique... and I mean true proper "killing" technique, goes out the window rapidly...

Traditional karate from the beginning NEVER had full contact kumite training, as true practitioners from the beginning trained in karate to kill or permanently main their adverseries... this type of training cannot be duplicated in a ring with pads... which is why traditional Shotokan karate does not practice full contact sparring etc... it DETRACTS from your skill level, it does not add to it.... and again, I do realize that there are sports karate clubs out there that practice Shotokan.. but they have bastardized the style to make it fit the sports requirements... ie: shallow punches to increase the speed to get a point, but that would not inflict any real injury, or flashing up the kata to make them look fancy for judges, but that change the imbedded techniques and reduce their real life effectiveness etc...

One other statement I'd like to address is this...it was mentioned by another in this string that he likes karate except for one thing... it was one dimensional and lacked any practical application for self defense in a "real street" scenario...

To respond to this I can tell you that I for one, would be the first one to drop karate training if it had no practical purpose... I can jog for physical health if thats all karate does for me... so its obvious that that statement is without merit, for one... karate would not exist today if it was true, as all the original practitioners would be dead from their action against the Samurai warlords the art was developed to defend against...who would have survived to teach it... and who would want to learn it if doesn't work and they would be killed???

As for being one dimensional? - how so? karate bunkai (application) incorporates every part of the human body as a target, and every possible part of the body that can be utilized as a striking tool... bunkai also incorporates everything from punching, kicking, and blocking to chokes, locks, throws, and take downs etc... with the subject of your attack succumbing to your will in the form of being pacified or maimed or killed, all of which depend solely on your particular frame of mind at the very instant that you apply your defensive or offensive technique...

So one dimensional??? I would have to strongly disagree...

As you can tell I am a traditional purest, a Black Belt for many years now with the SKIF (Shotokan Karate-Do International Federation), I am a direct student of Hirokazu Kanazawa Kancho, who was an original student of Gichin Funakoshi, the very person who introduced Karate-Do to Japan from Okinawa.

It is very hard these days to find a purest dojo, but if you are truly interested in learning the art form as it was from the beginning, with "No Changes" (as some people like to imply or outright suggest it has all been changed), I would highly recommend you follow up my words above and scout out an SKIF dojo.

And please remember, the colour of your belt doesn't make you better, it is your attitude and perseverance... the styles are a matter of preference... two people in totally different styles, could be exact matches against each other, it all depends on your attitude, ability, knowledge level, and perseverance.

Karate-Do means "The Way of Empty hand"... which infers that all we have in any situation in life (be it a conflict or tea drinking), is ourselves, and what God gave us... there is therefore... no better style... your art is all within you, and your willingness to take it as far as you are mentally, emotionally and physically capable of doing...

I apologize for my reply being so long, but this chain was raising a number of issues that junior practitioners could well be taken in by...

OSS...

 

[nlmantis]

I had the chance to train for a couple of days in camps with guys from Kamakura The Hague (http://www.kamakura.demon.nl/pages/bioger.html). Their style is the most effective at least in Europe as they win all the titles (also when they visit NA). It seems to work for them on the streets as well, you know what I mean. Full contact means no protection and taking your opponent out fast. I have seen a good fighter break his chin when his lowkick was blocked with the chin, and many knock-outs within seconds after starting the match. The word effective to me implies how techniques are applied to quickly take your opponent beyond the point of being able to fight back, and I am completely biased but would say I haven't seen a Karate style more effective than Kyokushin.

 

[RRouuselot]

What Do You Think Are The Most Effective Karate Styles?

We are taking an over 3,000 year old art and applying it to reality. Which traditional Karate systems do you think would hold up in a street NHB self-defense situation?


Personally in my opinion I believe the most lethal and effictive Karate styles are Kyokoshin Karate and Shoto-Kan Karate due to the full contact kumite aspects of the art it trains the artist to be aggressive and feel what real contact is.

The only thing I think is a negative about Karate and all other traiditional styles is they are one dimentional and lack ALL the tools you need in order to survive in a street situation.

But in terms of this case which traditional Karate style do you think will hold up best in the street?

3000 year old art???? Which art would that be?
As for you main question..........not to be rude but its an imature question ans shows your lack of understanding of the fighting arts.
It ALWAYS depends on the fighter and not so much the style.

 

[Gary Crawford]

The most effective Karate?I think that is a silly question.I mean no offense.I beleive the effectiveness relies on the individual student and individual instructor more than the style.

 

[wadokai_indo]

A full wado-ryu syllabus will contain techniques for all fighting distances.
even though it is karate (primarily regarded as punching and kicking) the founder (otsuka) was a well known jujitsu master before he studied under funakoshi (shotokan founder), which means that the majority of syllabus' for wado will start with striking techniques, u will progress onto grappling + throwing in higher grades.

Yes, that is very true I studied Wado for a long time under one of Otsuka sensei's direct student.. At the lower levels (Kyu grades) we trained in kicking and punching (but from a higher, more mobile stances, different with Shotokan).

Then at the middle levels (early Dan grades) we learn 9 basic Katas (Pinan 1-5, Kushanku, Naihanchi, Seishan, Chinto) and the 10 Kihon Kumite (basic defenses against a fast combinations of punches and kicks), the Kihon Kumite already contains grappling (throwing and joint locking). Some of the Taoshuwaza (takedowns) most immediately relevant for Kumite is also taught at this level.

Finally at the higher level (middle Dan grades) we are exposed to Shindo Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu, and begin learning traditional Jujutsu techniques from sitting position (Idori, this is also an entry to ground fighting), techniques from standing position (Tachiai, these are throwing and locking techniques), techniques against Knife (Tantodori) and finally techniques against sword (Tachidori).

My Dojo sacrifices competition fighting for the more traditional approach, so our focus is not competition Karate but the Jujutsu portion of Wado-ryu. The tradeoff is that we are pretty much useless in competition, but we learned the Jujutsu stuff which other Dojos are lacking. So maybe it is not very fair to lump Wado-ryu with "strike-only" and/or "competition-only" Karate styles. Wado-ryu is more like Jujutsu+Karate.

Here, for more info www.geocities.com/wadokai_indonesia


Thanks to Hippy for bringing this up!

 

[RRouuselot]

A full wado-ryu syllabus will contain techniques for all fighting distances.
even though it is karate (primarily regarded as punching and kicking) the founder (otsuka) was a well known jujitsu master before he studied under funakoshi (shotokan founder), which means that the majority of syllabus' for wado will start with striking techniques, u will progress onto grappling + throwing in higher grades.

That is true for "Japanese" Karate, however, original Okinawan karate has always had grappling in it's kata.....tuite, tegumi, etc...which in most dojo are taught from the begining.

As for Otsuka Sr.....he trained for several years in jujutsu and reached 6th dan, he trained with Funakoshi's karate dojo for a whopping 14 months. Which is one of several reasons why Wado Heian kata differ from shotokan.

 

[wadokai_indo]

That is true for "Japanese" Karate, however, original Okinawan karate has always had grappling in it's kata.....tuite, tegumi, etc...which in most dojo are taught from the begining.

As for Otsuka Sr.....he trained for several years in jujutsu and reached 6th dan, he trained with Funakoshi's karate dojo for a whopping 14 months. Which is one of several reasons why Wado Heian kata differ from shotokan.

I am sorry sir, but could you please tell me where did you get the information of Otsuka sensei reached "6th Dan" in Jujutsu? The official word from Wado-ryu Renmei (www.wado-ryu.jp) is Otsuka sensei received Menkyokaiden and was designated as the 4th successor of Shindo Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu. This particular Koryu Jujutsu style does not use Dan Ranks, but the Menkyo (licensing) system, with Menkyokaiden denotes the license to teach the entire system.

In regards of why Otsuka sensei's Katas are different with Shotokan, it is because he trained not only with Funakoshi sensei but also with Mabuni Kenwa of Shito-ryu and especially with Motobu Choki. Otsuka sensei also synthesized some ideas of his own, thus resulting in a series of Katas which are different with Shotokans. By the way, we uses PINAN katas not HEIAN katas.

With friendly regards,

Ben

 

[RRouuselot]

1)I am sorry sir, but could you please tell me where did you get the information of Otsuka sensei reached "6th Dan" in Jujutsu? The official word from Wado-ryu Renmei (www.wado-ryu.jp) is Otsuka sensei received Menkyokaiden and was designated as the 4th successor of Shindo Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu. This particular Koryu Jujutsu style does not use Dan Ranks, but the Menkyo (licensing) system, with Menkyokaiden denotes the license to teach the entire system.

In regards of why Otsuka sensei's Katas are different with Shotokan, it is because 2)he trained not only with Funakoshi sensei but also with Mabuni Kenwa of Shito-ryu and especially with Motobu Choki. Otsuka sensei also synthesized some ideas of his own, thus resulting in a series of Katas which are different with Shotokans. 3)By the way, we uses PINAN katas not HEIAN katas.

With friendly regards,

Ben

1) From a bio I read on him in Japanese....If memory serves the dan rank and menkyo were granted through the Butokukai in Kyoto....according to the article anyway. I also met him and his son at one of there demos.

2) I have yet to find anything stating he was a student of Motobu's. If he did train with him it wasn't long enough to be considered worthy of mentioning in Motobu's list of students I have seen over the last 25 years in Japanese or English out side of Wado's "official line" that is.

3) Just for your edification Heian is the word used by most dojos in Tokyo and Pinan is used by Okinawan dojo. Other than the Okinawan/Japanese pronunciation they are the same kata...at least they were until karate went to Tokyo.

 

[wadokai_indo]

I have yet to find anything stating he was a student of Motobu's. If he did train with him it wasn't long enough to be considered worthy of mentioning in Motobu's list of students I have seen over the last 25 years in Japanese or English out side of Wado's "official line" that is.

Just for your edification Heian is the word used by most dojos in Tokyo and Pinan is used by Okinawan dojo. Other than the Okinawan/Japanese pronunciation they are the same kata...at least they were until karate went to Tokyo.

Well, In that case I am very glad I that have informed to you our official "Wado Party Line".

Here are some links which describes the relationship between the legendary Motobu and Otsuka sensei:

http://www.ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_noble1_0200.htm

http://www.wadoworld.com/history/naihanchienigma/modernmasters/modernmasters.html

http://www.seinenkai.com/articles/noble/noble-funakoshi2.html


Regarding the Heian/Pinan similarities, the official Wado groups in Japan (Wadokai, Wado-ryu Renmei) always refer to them as Pinan. With all the differences that occured between Wado and Shotokan versions of these 5 Katas, it is safe to assume that they're now very different Katas which has travelled a different stream in history.

http://www.karatedo.co.jp/wado/w_goods/ev_wa/v_wado.html

Almost every Karate Kata in Wado-ryu uses original names as taught by senseis Motobu, Mabuni and off course Funakoshi, before it was changed into the current Shotokan names. For example, Tekki Shodan = Naihanchi, Hangetsu = Seishan, Gankaku = Chinto, Nijushiho = Niseishi, Empi = Wanshu.

In any case, it's nice to have a discussion with you.

Your friend in Budo,

Ben Haryo

 

[RRouuselot]

Well, In that case I am very glad I that have informed to you our official "Wado Party Line".

Here are some links which describes the relationship between the legendary Motobu and Otsuka sensei:

http://www.ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_noble1_0200.htm

http://www.wadoworld.com/history/naihanchienigma/modernmasters/modernmasters.html

http://www.seinenkai.com/articles/noble/noble-funakoshi2.html


Regarding the Heian/Pinan similarities, the official Wado groups in Japan (Wadokai, Wado-ryu Renmei) always refer to them as Pinan. With all the differences that occured between Wado and Shotokan versions of these 5 Katas, it is safe to assume that they're now very different Katas which has travelled a different stream in history.

http://www.karatedo.co.jp/wado/w_goods/ev_wa/v_wado.html

Almost every Karate Kata in Wado-ryu uses original names as taught by senseis Motobu, Mabuni and off course Funakoshi, before it was changed into the current Shotokan names. For example, Tekki Shodan = Naihanchi, Hangetsu = Seishan, Gankaku = Chinto, Nijushiho = Niseishi, Empi = Wanshu.

In any case, it's nice to have a discussion with you.

Your friend in Budo,

Ben Haryo

http://www.ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_noble1_0200.htm

This link I have seen many times before. Grahm Noble is a good writer. It’s not a bad article but doesn’t give any detail how extensively he trained with Motobu. For example I read in many articles about the relationship of Yasuhiro Konishi and Motobu and it has been documented the he was an actual student of Motobu and didn’t just pick up a few pointers or a kata.





http://www.wadoworld.com/history/na...ernmasters.html



.......the history according to wado

http://www.seinenkai.com/articles/n...funakoshi2.html



This basically says he was present during a sort of "demo" that Motobu had set up to make Funakoshi look stupid.


"Unlike Gichin Funakoshi he was not a kata enthusiast and his uncompromising emphasis on application led him to criticise Funakoshi's karate. There is a story in "Nihon Budo Taikei" (a Japanese encyclopaedia of Budo) about a meeting between the two men at Yasuhiro Konishi's dojo in 1929. Hironori Ohtsuka was also present. Motobu had with him a strong young 4th dan judoka, and no doubt in an attempt to put Funakoshi down, he arranged a little test in which the judoka took a firm hold on his (Funakoshi's) collar and sleeve. "Now," he said to Funakoshi, "you are so proud of your basic kata, show me what value they have in this situation. Do what you wish to escape."

(I have actually seen where that dojo was as well as met Konishi's son)


It has been my contention that Ohtsuka was a student/training partner of Konishi’s and Mabuni but not really a "direct" student under Motobu. This idea is based on books written by Motobu that list his students in great detail but have never mentioned Ohtsuka in the lineage chart.......I find it odd that if he were indeed a "real" student that he not be mentioned in his teachers lineage chart as being so. So if Motobu didn't claim him as a student then there is no reason for me to think he was. Many people in Japan and elsewhere claim to be students of XXXXX master after a chance meeting or even spending a little time training with them. People have and still do this to my teacher after training at a single seminar! Basically if the teacher doesn't claim you as a student then you aren't one.

Maybe Ohtsuka did pick up a kata/some tips from Motobu himself.....I have worked out with countless people.......some rather extensively. I don’t claim to be their student and I highly doubt I will be listed in any lineage chart from their dojo.

So when I see something that has been written by Motobu saying Ohtsuka was his student then I wll believe it.

 

[wadokai_indo]

Many people in Japan and elsewhere claim to be students of XXXXX master after a chance meeting or even spending a little time training with them.

Hahahaha! Yes sir, you are very correct! This is what people call "the curse of famous instructors!" Once we became a bit famous, then people would come up and claim that they train with us (even though the "training" itself only consists of one day seminars, maybe even just a visit to the Dojo ).

Personally I think he did studied a Kata or two from Motobu sensei, and maybe sparred a bit & learn some Kumite, but not very extensive. The "Student of Mabuni/training partner of Konishi" bit I think is accurate. Otsuka sensei and Konishi were good friends, so it is very plausible that Konishi arranged some meetings/training sessions with Motobu, on which Otsuka was also present & trained some along the way.

Well, have a nice weekend!

Ben

 

[bignick]

to answer the original question...the one you like the best are willing to train the hardest in...that's probably the best answer...

as for the 3,000 year old art, i assume you're talking about taekwondo...

well...i'm sorry but taekwondo was created in the fifties...it was influenced by korea's long history of martial arts(tae kyon, soo bak) but to say that it's 3000 years old is grossly incorrect...and there is some evidence to support that it came from japan/okinawa...and there is evidence likewise that okinawa/japanese arts were influenced by korea...very few cultures/arts developed in a void...

as for asking which is the most effective for self defense...and dismissing those crazy old "traditional" styles...there's where you're making your biggest mistake...there's most likely a reason why a certain style of karate can trace it's lineage back for centuries...aka it worked, therefore people survived and passed down...

 

[wadokai_indo]

to answer the original question...the one you like the best are willing to train the hardest in...that's probably the best answer...

as for the 3,000 year old art, i assume you're talking about taekwondo...

well...i'm sorry but taekwondo was created in the fifties...it was influenced by korea's long history of martial arts(tae kyon, soo bak) but to say that it's 3000 years old is grossly incorrect...and there is some evidence to support that it came from japan/okinawa...and there is evidence likewise that okinawa/japanese arts were influenced by korea...very few cultures/arts developed in a void...

as for asking which is the most effective for self defense...and dismissing those crazy old "traditional" styles...there's where you're making your biggest mistake...there's most likely a reason why a certain style of karate can trace it's lineage back for centuries...aka it worked, therefore people survived and passed down...

Yes sir, this sounds very logical.. if the art is not effective then the practitioners won't survived long enough to transmit it!

I think this is a common logic for Karate as well as Jujutsu and any other types of martial arts!

 

[Ippon Ken]

Hahahaha! Yes sir, you are very correct! This is what people call "the curse of famous instructors!" Once we became a bit famous, then people would come up and claim that they train with us (even though the "training" itself only consists of one day seminars, maybe even just a visit to the Dojo ).

Personally I think he did studied a Kata or two from Motobu sensei, and maybe sparred a bit & learn some Kumite, but not very extensive. The "Student of Mabuni/training partner of Konishi" bit I think is accurate. Otsuka sensei and Konishi were good friends, so it is very plausible that Konishi arranged some meetings/training sessions with Motobu, on which Otsuka was also present & trained some along the way.

Well, have a nice weekend!

Ben

Ohtsuka's prowess as a Jujutsu-ka led Funakoshi to exclaim to him after seeing him demonstrate what he knew for the first time "Where did you study tode? You are obviously versed in the fighting traditions of Okinawa"?! With this Ohtsuka sensei replied "I am a Jujustu-ka". that being said I think that Ohtsuka, being a very accomplished budo-ka at a young age made him realize how much Funakoshi didn't know or wasn't able to teach him, especially after training with respected Okinawan Shishii like Motobu Choki and Mabuni Kenwa.

I think that it is safe to assume that after training with all three he saw the original Toudi of Kenwa and Motobu as superior and more realitic for fighting than the Shotokan that Funakoshi was shopping about Japan. That's why he used the Okinawan names- Seishan for Hangetsu, Naihanchi for Tekki and so on.

I always thought of Wado as the most Okinawan of the Japanese karate ryuha. I feel that Kyokushin and Wado are very good styles of karate, and the fact that Ohtsuka was a renowned jujutsu-ka, he understood the Okinawan concepts of change-body and circular movement very well. For this simple fact, the absence of grappling (tegumi or tuite) and juho in Shotokan was not lost on Ohtsuka. His JJJ experience "patched up" the holes in the strike-block-punch dominant karate of most Japanese styles, especially Shotokan.

Does Wado train kobudo or kobujutsu? I can see why Ohtsuka wanted to form his own karate organization and style. Many Okinawans had the same gripe concerning Funakoshi's karate "expertise".

Later and have a great weekend!

 

[RRouuselot]

.............Personally I think he did studied a Kata or two from Motobu sensei, and maybe sparred a bit & learn some Kumite, but not very extensive. The "Student of Mabuni/training partner of Konishi" bit I think is accurate. Otsuka sensei and Konishi were good friends, so it is very plausible that Konishi arranged some meetings/training sessions with Motobu, on which Otsuka was also present & trained some along the way.

Well, have a nice weekend!

Ben

Like I said I thought Ohtsuka being a direct student was a bit off and most likely got bits here and there from Konishi's training with Motobu and from an odd visit from Motobu himself.

As for the kumite.....here is a piece from the URL you supplied. He doesn't seem they shared the same style of kumite either.

(The person that wrote the history for this got Motobu's son's name screwed up. It's actually Chomei not Chosei as written on the Wado website)


Motobu’s Kumite – Ohtsuka’s Kumite and Naihanchi

There are some similarities between Choki Motobu’s Kumite and some of Ohtsuka Sensei’s Kumite, but the modus operandi displayed by the inheritor of Motobu's teaching, namely his son Chosei, demonstrates within the applications to Naihanchi and within the twelve Motobu Kihon Gumite a very much more straight on and immediate approach. The Kihon Gumite of Motobu are very direct and also very accessible, whereas the Ohtsuka Kumite pairs exercises appear to have greater subtlety, betraying their Jujutsu and Japanese Budo roots.

Close examination of Motobu’s 1926 book shows the use of deflections, simultaneous parries and strikes, closing of distances and punches acting as deflections. Also some researchers have sought to identify movements and positions found within Naihanchi kata, and indeed they are there! Returning to Motobu’s previously mentioned quote;

"Twisting to the left or right from the Naifuanchin stance will give you the stance used in a real confrontation. Twisting ones way of thinking about Naifuanchin left and right, the various meanings in each movement of the kata will also become clear."

It is not difficult to see the applications within the 1926 book. In one example we see the attacker grabbed and pulled on to a strike which comes out of the side of the body, a clear and obvious application from Naihanchi.

As mentioned before, the key differences between the Kumite devised by the two masters are in Ohtsuka’s use of principles taken from his background in Shindo Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu, as well as techniques that relate closely to traditional schools of swordsmanship. But common ground can be found in engagement distances and the closing down of the opponent by crashing through the zones and distances. Motobu also periodically demonstrates the use of his legs to destabilize or limit the manoeuvrability of his opponent, this is also found in Ohtsuka’s Kumite, but is normally associated with the Kuzushi (unbalancing) found in schools of traditional Jujutsu. Here again we can make a clear connection between principles found in the Kumite of both Masters and Naihanchi. In Wado it is understood that the operation of the Naihanchi stance promotes easy use of the knees to destabilize while allowing the torso freedom to rotate. But if this is common to Motobu and Ohtsuka, who influenced who? Or is it just a coincidence? Whatever the answer is, Naihanchi seems to have been a common denominator.

 

[RRouuselot]

Yes sir, this sounds very logical.. if the art is not effective then the practitioners won't survived long enough to transmit it!

I think this is a common logic for Karate as well as Jujutsu and any other types of martial arts!

I disagree with this statement very strongly. If you look around the days of tsukiji nage/tsukijigiri /dojo yaburi are loooooooong gone. There are so many crap styles of MAs out now it’s incredible. And because they cant be challenged in the “old way” do to the legal ramifications from the afore mentioned methods they grow and prosper. Just look at all the Mcdojos that have popped up over the years, look at all the bogus “Soke” 10th dans that are floating around..........Basically I see more crap dojos that would have been shut down using the “old way” that actually did weed out the wheat from the chaff.

 

[RRouuselot]

I always thought of Wado as the most Okinawan of the Japanese karate ryuha. I feel that Kyokushin and Wado are very good styles of karate, and the fact that Ohtsuka was a renowned jujutsu-ka, he understood the Okinawan concepts of change-body and circular movement very well. For this simple fact, the absence of grappling (tegumi or tuite) and juho in Shotokan was not lost on Ohtsuka. His JJJ experience "patched up" the holes in the strike-block-punch dominant karate of most Japanese styles, especially Shotokan.

What about Shito Ryu?

 

[wadokai_indo]

Ohtsuka's prowess as a Jujutsu-ka led Funakoshi to exclaim to him after seeing him demonstrate what he knew for the first time "Where did you study tode? You are obviously versed in the fighting traditions of Okinawa"?! With this Ohtsuka sensei replied "I am a Jujustu-ka". that being said I think that Ohtsuka, being a very accomplished budo-ka at a young age made him realize how much Funakoshi didn't know or wasn't able to teach him, especially after training with respected Okinawan Shishii like Motobu Choki and Mabuni Kenwa.

I think that it is safe to assume that after training with all three he saw the original Toudi of Kenwa and Motobu as superior and more realitic for fighting than the Shotokan that Funakoshi was shopping about Japan. That's why he used the Okinawan names- Seishan for Hangetsu, Naihanchi for Tekki and so on.

I always thought of Wado as the most Okinawan of the Japanese karate ryuha. I feel that Kyokushin and Wado are very good styles of karate, and the fact that Ohtsuka was a renowned jujutsu-ka, he understood the Okinawan concepts of change-body and circular movement very well. For this simple fact, the absence of grappling (tegumi or tuite) and juho in Shotokan was not lost on Ohtsuka. His JJJ experience "patched up" the holes in the strike-block-punch dominant karate of most Japanese styles, especially Shotokan.

Does Wado train kobudo or kobujutsu? I can see why Ohtsuka wanted to form his own karate organization and style. Many Okinawans had the same gripe concerning Funakoshi's karate "expertise".

Later and have a great weekend!

Yes sir, I agree with much of what you said here. Otsuka sensei does not train in Okinawan weapons. He received his weapons training from the Buki no Waza of Shindo Yoshin-ryu and possibly from other styles like Jiki Shinkage-ryu.

 

[Ippon Ken]

What about Shito Ryu?

What about Nisei Goju? Nope and nope! Are you talking about Kuniba's Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu? Well that is a joke and the "Ha" should be Ha-Ha! Japanese Shito is nothing like Mabuni Kenwa's Shito Ryu as taught on Okinawa. It's flippy, deeper stanced flying kick Shotokan. NOPE! It's like ShorinJi Ryu Renshinkan vs. Kyan inspired Shorinji Ryu. Wado is a style more closely related to its Okinawan cousin arts than any other Japanese ryuha.

 

[RRouuselot]

What about Nisei Goju? Nope and nope! Are you talking about Kuniba's Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu? Well that is a joke and the "Ha" should be Ha-Ha! Japanese Shito is nothing like Mabuni Kenwa's Shito Ryu as taught on Okinawa. It's flippy, deeper stanced flying kick Shotokan. NOPE! It's like ShorinJi Ryu Renshinkan vs. Kyan inspired Shorinji Ryu. Wado is a style more closely related to its Okinawan cousin arts than any other Japanese ryuha.

What about Nisei Goju? Nope and nope! Are you talking about Kuniba's Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu? Well that is a joke and the "Ha" should be Ha-Ha! Japanese Shito is nothing like Mabuni Kenwa's Shito Ryu as taught on Okinawa. It's flippy, deeper stanced flying kick Shotokan. NOPE! It's like ShorinJi Ryu Renshinkan vs. Kyan inspired Shorinji Ryu. Wado is a style more closely related to its Okinawan cousin arts than any other Japanese ryuha.

This is the second post of mine in the last 5 minutes you have jumped on.
What's with the bug up your back side?

Did I say Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu?
I don’t think I did..........and I am fairly sure if I was referring to them I would have mentioned them by name.

I think the “Japanese Shito” you are referring to is the Itosu kai style of Shito ryu located in Eastern Japan and not Mabuni’s version located in Western Japan.

Most people think of karate as being simply "karate", however, there are many styles of karate such as Goju-ryu, Kyokushinkai, Wado-ryu, Shorin-ryu, Shotokan, and Shito-ryu. To compound the matter further, there are substyles within the styles, such as Hayashi-ha, Itosukai, etc.

Shito-ryu karate is probably the most popular form in West Japan. It was founded by Kenwa Mabuni who studied under Yasutsune Itosu. Mabuni also later studied under Kanryo Higashionna and later named his style of karate the Shito style, taking the first characters of each of his teacher's names. 'Shi' is the one of the Japanese readings for the character meaning "string" which is the first of the two characters which make up the name "Itosu". "Higashi" is the first character of Master Higashionna's name, which can also be read "to" in Japanese as it is in the characters for Tokyo. Master Mabuni combined them to get "Shito" as the name of his style.

Kenwa Mabuni (1889-1952) brought his style of karate to Osaka in 1929 and concentrated on teaching it in universities in West Japan.

Another major figure in Shito-ryu karate is the present head of the Itosukai branch of Shito-ryu, Master Ryusho Sakagami born in April,1915 who founded the Itosukai in 1954.

I actually met Ryusho Sakagami years ago and have to agree that his style leaned toward the “Japanese-eque” type Karate and was not very Okinawan in appearance.

Also, given the fact that most karate dojo in Okinawa do some sort of Okinawan Kobudo as part of their training I would say the Mabuni style of Shito is more closely Okinawan since they still do Okinawan Kobudo and Wado Ryu/Kai does not. Hell, even the Itosu Kai version Shito does Okinawan Kobudo.
Also of note is that there are more than a few Shito Ryu dojo in Okinawa.....I can't say the same for Wado ryu or kai.


Here is a link on Shito Ryu:

http://www.shitoryu.org/bios/kenei/kenei.htm