Thank you or those brief history lessons. It i always good to see some of the history given in threads
C
cas
Guest
Perhaps this link helps
http://seinenkai.com/articles/noble/noble-motobu2.html
Quote from this interview
" We talked a little about some of Choki Motobu's Japanese pupils, Hironori Ohtsuka, for example, the founder of Wado-ryu. Chosei said that Ohtsuka had not been a registered student of Choki Sensei, but he would study with him whenever he had the opportunity. Chosei agreed that occasionally you can see elements of Choki's technique in Ohtsuka's karate. Ohtsuka didn't teach Motobu's style, but he would take techniques and ideas from it and add these to his Wado-ryu. Regarding Yasuhiro Konishi, the founder of Shindo-Jinen Ryu karate, Chosei confirmed that he had been a great help to Choki Motobu in Japan, not just financially, but in promoting his cause and helping him to get his dojo established. There was also Sannosuke Uejima, a ju-jutsu instructor who had been one of Motobu's early students in the 1920s. Takeji Inaba had actually been to meet Uejima, who told him that when he had first gone to see Choki Motobu they had exchanged ideas on technique. Uejima recalled that each time he tried a move, Motobu would anticipate it, then neutralize or counter it. He seemed to do that almost instinctively, and Uejima was somewhat shocked by this. Uejima told Inaba that although many people said bad things about Choki Motobu, he really was an exceptional martial artist. "
What boggles me is this:
Ohtsuka sensei was a knowledgeable martial artist before starting karate practice. If Funakoshi sensei didn't have anything to add to his knowledge or skills why did train with/ under him in the first place?
If a teacher has nothing to teach you except for some forms without any explanation or insight in these forms why stick around (for 18 months or some years). If this was the case then surely one or two training sessions would have been enough to see there was nothing to gain?
have a good week,
Casper Baar
http://seinenkai.com/articles/noble/noble-motobu2.html
Quote from this interview
" We talked a little about some of Choki Motobu's Japanese pupils, Hironori Ohtsuka, for example, the founder of Wado-ryu. Chosei said that Ohtsuka had not been a registered student of Choki Sensei, but he would study with him whenever he had the opportunity. Chosei agreed that occasionally you can see elements of Choki's technique in Ohtsuka's karate. Ohtsuka didn't teach Motobu's style, but he would take techniques and ideas from it and add these to his Wado-ryu. Regarding Yasuhiro Konishi, the founder of Shindo-Jinen Ryu karate, Chosei confirmed that he had been a great help to Choki Motobu in Japan, not just financially, but in promoting his cause and helping him to get his dojo established. There was also Sannosuke Uejima, a ju-jutsu instructor who had been one of Motobu's early students in the 1920s. Takeji Inaba had actually been to meet Uejima, who told him that when he had first gone to see Choki Motobu they had exchanged ideas on technique. Uejima recalled that each time he tried a move, Motobu would anticipate it, then neutralize or counter it. He seemed to do that almost instinctively, and Uejima was somewhat shocked by this. Uejima told Inaba that although many people said bad things about Choki Motobu, he really was an exceptional martial artist. "
What boggles me is this:
Ohtsuka sensei was a knowledgeable martial artist before starting karate practice. If Funakoshi sensei didn't have anything to add to his knowledge or skills why did train with/ under him in the first place?
If a teacher has nothing to teach you except for some forms without any explanation or insight in these forms why stick around (for 18 months or some years). If this was the case then surely one or two training sessions would have been enough to see there was nothing to gain?
have a good week,
Casper Baar
RRouuselot
Master of Arts
Good question......maybe some Wado folks can supply an answer.cas said:
RRouuselot
Master of Arts
Actually after looking at their website http://www.synapse.ne.jp/~renshin/index.html , which is pretty kool I might add, they seem to be EXTREMELY Okinawan in their approach to Karate. Maybe one of the closest I have seen in Japan. I am very interested in meeting some of these folks! Too bad they are located in Kagoshima.TimoS said:
TimoS
Master of Arts
RRouuselot said:
I practise Renshinkan here in Finland and that's why I was confused about this statement
Because our lineage from Kyan is Zenryo Shimabukuro and Joen Nakazato to Isamu Tamotsu (and his student Motomu Ikubo is my sensei's sensei) and although my contact with Okinawan karate is limited to few visits per year to a Seibukan dojo near where my parents live, I haven't seen too much of a difference between these two styles (but, like I said, I don't have much contact towards Okinawan karate and besides, at 1. kyu I'm still very much a beginner)
RRouuselot
Master of Arts
I think the person that made that statement was either unclear in explaining what he meant or didn't research his information well.TimoS said:I practise Renshinkan here in Finland and that's why I was confused about this statement
So do you practice in the same manner with the Honbu in Kagoshima?
(kata and sparring wise that is?)
The reason I ask is because I am interested in knowing about styles that I have not been exposed to before. It's always nice to know what others are up to. :wink2:
TimoS
Master of Arts
RRouuselot said:
There seem to be some differences between us and Kagoshima. I've never been there, of course, but I've seen the current head of style, soke Iwao Tamotsu twice here in Finland, last time in July this year. Kata look a bit different from what we've been practising. Also the order they're taught seems to be different, for us it is: Wanshu, Ananku, Seisan and in Japan Seisan, Ananku, Wanshu. I think this is because our sensei thought that Seisan is too difficult for beginners :idunno: Sparring is mostly the same, though: full contact with protectors on, although we've been told that the typical fighting distance in Japan is longer than here in Finland, but as I've never been to Japan or even in a match (so far, at least), I have to rely on hearsay on this
Oh well, maybe one day, although at 36 years I'm not sure if I even want to enter a match
RRouuselot
Master of Arts
TimoS said:There seem to be some differences between us and Kagoshima. I've never been there, of course, but I've seen the current head of style, soke Iwao Tamotsu twice here in Finland, last time in July this year. Kata look a bit different from what we've been practising. Also the order they're taught seems to be different, for us it is: Wanshu, Ananku, Seisan and in Japan Seisan, Ananku, Wanshu. I think this is because our sensei thought that Seisan is too difficult for beginners :idunno: Sparring is mostly the same, though: full contact with protectors on, although we've been told that the typical fighting distance in Japan is longer than here in Finland, but as I've never been to Japan or even in a match (so far, at least), I have to rely on hearsay on this
Since this thread is about the effectiveness of karate and it's styles......do you think what you are doing is effective? Is there any area that you would like the style to improve upon?
RRouuselot
Master of Arts
Here is another nice website that gives some insight on the relationship of Renshinkan and Mr. Kyan http://www.shoreikan.net/en/history.htm
Here is one with a linage chart http://www.shoreikan.net/en/familytree.htm
Ipponken,
Do you have anything you would like to add to this discussion to support your views about the statement you made a few posts back about Kyan and Renshinkan??????
Here is one with a linage chart http://www.shoreikan.net/en/familytree.htm
Ipponken,
Do you have anything you would like to add to this discussion to support your views about the statement you made a few posts back about Kyan and Renshinkan??????
TimoS
Master of Arts
RRouuselot said:
Especially the way we're taught here in Finland seems very effective to me. What would I like to have more.... Hmm, tough question, especially since I've only been doing this about three years, so my experience is still very limited, but let's say a bit more focus on fighting at close range. This could come with time, as I'm quite sure Matsuoi sensei knows this stuff
This is because at one of the clubs I practise, we have one guy who used to play football (not soccer) and he likes to wrestle, eventhough nobody else likes to. This guy is so bloody strong, not to mention heavy, that nothing I try seems to make any difference at all. So I would like to be able to quickly counter his grabs so I could escape One thing I forgot to mention previously about the differences between what is practised at e.g. Kagoshima and Finland is that in addition to our normal kata we practise also Pinan 1-5 and Naifanchi 1-3. Matsuoi sensei learnt these from Ikubo sensei (who he learnt them from, I don't know. I previously thought it was Shodai Soke Isamu Tamotsu, but this could be a misunderstanding on my part). Also our karate seems to me to have taken some influence from Tauramuso ryu kobujutsu, especially from the jujutsu part of the system (Ikubo sensei's pages (japanese only) can be found here), but also from the sword part
I
Ippon Ken
Guest
Is it truly from Kyan Chotoku's lineage? Why the need to add Japanese MAs elements to it then? What about the deep stances, emphasis on jiyu kumite and high kicks. I didn't say it wasn't a good Japanese style, but it's definitely nothing like the Okinawan Shorinji Ryu I've seen. In fact my curent sensei has a strong Shorinji Ryu background and the other Kyan ryuha I've seen place the most emphasis on kata and 2-man drills, with limited sparring at the kyu ranks.TimoS said:
The horse stances those girls are doing on the site looks a lot like Japanese Shito Ryu or even Shotokan. So is it really an Okinawan Ryu?
All that aside dowhatchalike and have fun. I don't doubt it is an awesome style of Japanese karate. Peace.
RRouuselot
Master of Arts
1. We have not seen anything to prove otherwise.....if you have some info to support your idea please share it.Ippon Ken said:
2. Japanese are known for "Japanizing" everything they get a hold of. Look at the sword making techniques they imported from Korea, religion, cameras, Cars, etc....
3. NEWS flash for ya.....Some styles in Okinawa do deep stances, most do/did jiyu kumite, and as for the high kicks....well Kyan was famous for his ability to do high kicks.
4. Maybe you haven't seen much Shorinji Ryu then......
5. Why do you doubt it? Have you ever trained with them? Ever seen them in person? Ever beat one of them? Do you always base your ideas about other arts you have limited or no exposure to?
RRouuselot
Master of Arts
Ippon Ken said:
Oh really???? And whom might he be and from whom did he get his training?
TimoS
Master of Arts
Ippon Ken said:
Yep. Like I said before, Shorinji ryu Renshinkan's lineage to Kyan goes like this:
Chotoku Kyan -> Zenryo Shimabukuro & Joen Nakazato -> Isamu Tamotsu (and from him to us like this -> Motomu Ikubo -> Yuji Matsuoi).
Deep stances ? Our normal stance is quite high. I have practised, admittedly only a few times, with Shorin ryu Seibukan people and their stance is much deeper than ours.
Yes, I've noticed that their stances are exceptionally deep. I don't know why, because at least we never use stances that are so deep. Even when doing kobudo, our stance is higher than that. Here are some old pictures from Matsuoi sensei's dojo of people practising kata. http://www.gnbukai.pp.fi/karate/karate_kuvia.htm
RRouuselot
Master of Arts
timoS
I dont know about you but I think Ipponken has either been grossly miss informed by someone(s) about many aspects of karate or he just has a bone to pick.......or both. Either way I have yet to see much much of what he writes to be supported by fact or any sort of foundation for possibility and if I were you wouldn't take the abuse and snide comments he slings too seriously.
From what I can gather from the Kagoshima website what your doing looks like interesting. If it's effective then that is all that really counts at the end of the day.
I personally get tired of troglodytes on these boards that can only back up what they write/claim with insults and snide remarks instead of facts or some sort of information that lead them to such a belief.
I dont know about you but I think Ipponken has either been grossly miss informed by someone(s) about many aspects of karate or he just has a bone to pick.......or both. Either way I have yet to see much much of what he writes to be supported by fact or any sort of foundation for possibility and if I were you wouldn't take the abuse and snide comments he slings too seriously.
From what I can gather from the Kagoshima website what your doing looks like interesting. If it's effective then that is all that really counts at the end of the day.
I personally get tired of troglodytes on these boards that can only back up what they write/claim with insults and snide remarks instead of facts or some sort of information that lead them to such a belief.
TimoS
Master of Arts
RRouuselot said:
Oh, I never take anything written online too seriously
But anyway, I am interested in his reasons. I don't want an argument, I just want a reasonable discussion and hopefully learn something from it The bad thing about these online discussions is that the tone of voice is not conveyed, so there are misunderstandings
RRouuselot
Master of Arts
Me too, but he never really gives a solid reason for why he says what he says. Too bad, the discussion would be more interesting and educational then.TimoS said:Oh, I never take anything written online too seriously
The bad thing about these online discussions is that the tone of voice is not conveyed, so there are misunderstandings
W
wadokai_indo
Guest
Maybe...At that time Otsuka sensei was very interested with Ryukyu Kenpo, and Funakoshi sensei was the only one available at the momentcas said:
Off course this is just speculation.. don't take me too seriously!
I
Ippon Ken
Guest
Nunya, but he trained under Fusei Kise who was a 6th dan in Shorinjiryu at the time (in the 1960s).RRouuselot said:
What have I posted on here that was unfounded or not true? Go back and look at what I posted and tell me I was wrong about something. If you find any discrepancies then you know I'm fallible, but 99% of what I post is cor-frickin'-rect, Bobby Bogu!
Look he does Richard Kim-ish Shorinji Ryu, the Japanese flashy variety. That's that. I'm not saying it's not a good karate ryuha, just that it's not really Okinawan anymore, so stop saying it is. Yes Seibukan has schoolboy technique in their karate and so do most Okinawan karate brands. A good adult style of Okinawan karate uses realistic stances and techs. Just like good, functional Tai Chi uses more upright stances and a lot of whipping motion. Same, same.
Anyway, you guys do you and I'll do me. Now go pay 220 yen for a skinny arsed 4 ounce coke, Rob. 'Nuff said!
