What can average joes accomplish realistically in sanctioned competitions?

[Bee Brian]

I think you totally overestimate muscle power in martial arts.

You say lifting weights works on your fast twitch muscle fibers. Well is it really fast? The speed of a bench press or a squat is nothing compared to the speed of a punch... A truck has no chance against a Ferrari on a racing track.

Scott Adkins claimed in a video that putting on muscle for some movies made him slower because of the extra weight. And he knows what he's talking about.

Large muscle mass also puts a burden on your cardio.

Honestly I don't think you'd last a round in a boxing fight against a decently trained opponent who's going for the ko.

Cheers

As far as speed of a punch vs speed of a barbell... At that point, it no longer becomes a matter of what type of muscle. At that point, all that matters would be your actual motor skill. And that comes from proper drilling.

I said it before and I'll say it again. Five years... If I become a better boxer while still doing my lifting routine, I'd be such a hard hitter that my sparring partners would ask me to hold back during sparring.

I've also said something here before that bears repeating. Take two guys with identical punching technique and the dude who's stronger will hit harder.

 

[Bee Brian]

And another point: A weight lifting champion has trained muscles in a certain way that is not completely unrelated to a fight but his / her nervous system is totally untrained for a fight -> Reflexes, knowing what to do, feeling for fight distance etc. all that has to be appropriately trained.

I'm only talking about raw punching power, NOT overall boxing prowess.

Of course, even Eddie Hall and Lasha Talakhadze and a prime Ronnie Coleman wouldn't do well against a Klitschko or a prime Tyson. But teach those aforementioned lifters proper punching technique, having them spend long hours drilling daily with proper punching technique and you'll get someone with a higher punching power.

I'm arguing for PUNCHING POWER, not BOXING PROWESS.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I said it before and I'll say it again. Five years... If I become a better boxer while still doing my lifting routine, I'd be such a hard hitter that my sparring partners would ask me to hold back during sparring.

A quick note- if your sparring partners are asking you to hold back, you're doing something wrong. When you're sparring you typically should not be going all out, and how strong you are shouldn't come into play 95% of the time. The other 5% is if you're choosing to do hard sparring, in which case you shouldn't be holding back (and you should be with someone who is around the same as you in terms of weight).

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I'm only talking about raw punching power, NOT overall boxing prowess.

Of course, even Eddie Hall and Lasha Talakhadze and a prime Ronnie Coleman wouldn't do well against a Klitschko or a prime Tyson. But teach those aforementioned lifters proper punching technique, having them spend long hours drilling daily with proper punching technique and you'll get someone with a higher punching power.

I'm arguing for PUNCHING POWER, not BOXING PROWESS.

Part of the equation, which I think you might be missing, is time spent in each. So theoretically, let's say you have 1 hour a day free time. (In this situation) that's all the time you've got to increase your punching power. We're going to ignore other aspects of boxing like footwork tactics etc. to avoid getting too complex with the scenario, and to focus just on punching power, not boxing prowess, but keep in mind you need to set aside time for those as well in reality.

Do you spend that hour lifting, or do you spend it practicing your boxing skill? Would you end up with more punching power if you spent 90% of your time lifting, and 10% learning punching technique, vs. 50/50 vs. 90% learning punching technique, and 10% lifting? Something else to consider-will this ratio change over time? ie: if you go in as a relatively strong man, you likely should be spending a lot more time learning technique than lifting, but as time goes on and you've gotten pretty good at punching, at what point should you shift your priorities and do some more lifting?

With your above examples, if they spend long hours drilling daily their punching technique, their time lifting will drop, so they'll lose raw strength even though their punching power will increase. Everyone has either a max limit of actual time they can spend, or 'self-control fatigue', even if each person's amount of that varies, and it's important to figure out how best to utilize that time/control-fatigue for your stated goal (in this case punching power).

 

[Bee Brian]

A quick note- if your sparring partners are asking you to hold back, you're doing something wrong. When you're sparring you typically should not be going all out, and how strong you are shouldn't come into play 95% of the time. The other 5% is if you're choosing to do hard sparring, in which case you shouldn't be holding back (and you should be with someone who is around the same as you in terms of weight).

Ohh... Okay yeah, my bad. I'd have to change the conditions of my bet.

Part of the equation, which I think you might be missing, is time spent in each. So theoretically, let's say you have 1 hour a day free time. (In this situation) that's all the time you've got to increase your punching power. We're going to ignore other aspects of boxing like footwork tactics etc. to avoid getting too complex with the scenario, and to focus just on punching power, not boxing prowess, but keep in mind you need to set aside time for those as well in reality.

Do you spend that hour lifting, or do you spend it practicing your boxing skill? Would you end up with more punching power if you spent 90% of your time lifting, and 10% learning punching technique, vs. 50/50 vs. 90% learning punching technique, and 10% lifting? Something else to consider-will this ratio change over time? ie: if you go in as a relatively strong man, you likely should be spending a lot more time learning technique than lifting, but as time goes on and you've gotten pretty good at punching, at what point should you shift your priorities and do some more lifting?

With your above examples, if they spend long hours drilling daily their punching technique, their time lifting will drop, so they'll lose raw strength even though their punching power will increase. Everyone has either a max limit of actual time they can spend, or 'self-control fatigue', even if each person's amount of that varies, and it's important to figure out how best to utilize that time/control-fatigue for your stated goal (in this case punching power).

You speak as if it takes forever to learn punching technique.

Does it?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

You speak as if it takes forever to learn punching technique.

Does it?

Depending on your standard of good, I'd say it probably takes around 3 months to get good punching technique with a bag. And then a year or more to have good punching technique in sparring. And then longer depending on how long you're sparring/getting used to punching well with fatigue.

That's assuming you're training like 2-3 times a week, and that fluctuates a lot depending on the person, how intense they go, their trainer, and their natural talent.

 

[Ivan]

I'm undoubtedly a very naturally gifted lifter. But I'm untested in boxing. When this pandemic fixes itself, I'll join a certain boxing gym close to home.

I got my cardio fixed. I should be able to last a solid three rounds in a fight.

I officially just started lifting weights again today. So all of my body, from head to toe, is gonna be very easily packed with raw punching power. It's EASY for me to pack on strength.

Physically, I can get there. My concern is the SKILL aspect of boxing...

Let's just for a moment assume that I'm neither bad nor good in the talent department. I am almost 29 years old right now. How far, in your own rough estimation, can I get with this if I plan to compete in the amateur leagues? Let's just say that I'll be very consistent with my training, manage to stay injury-free, and I'll work hard.

In your ballpark estimation, how far can I get?

Thanks folks.

Well, for starters, I very much doubt you, or any average joe, is prepared Cardio wise. It's nothing against you personally, it's the fact that Boxing is more demanding in terms of Cardio than almost any events out there. I could make a very decent argument about how it's more intensive than swimming, marathons and other cardio related sports because of multiple reasons, but I will talk about the major issue.

• Length

The fact is, that boxing matches end under only two circumstances, apart from some outliers: either a knockout, or both fighters lasting until the end. Assuming, we are talking in terms of professional, high level bouts, that's 12 rounds of 3 gruelling minutes with an opponent who's sole aim for the next half an hour is beating the snot out of you. Even in amateur, beginner level exhibition fights, back at home I believe it was 5 rounds of 1 minute, the fighters are completely gassed by the end. The fact is, that boxing and other similar sports, are the only type of physical challenges that require you to give your all until you or your opponent drops, or for a full 36 minutes. In comparison to, say, swimming, in which the longest event (in personal experience) is a 1600m swim, you can pace yourself to stretch out your stamina for the whole event. And even when pacing yourself, it is uncommon at amateur level to swim for more than 25 minutes. The level of output required in boxing is insane, and you only get to pace yourself in a match if your opponent lets you. There is no one, anywhere in this world, who can go all out (as you would in a boxing match) and not feel like a pig in a sauna for days on end afterwards.

As for raw punching power, that only gets you so far. The best recent example I can think of, are Tyson Fury's matches vs Deontay Wilder. Granted, Deontay Wilder's punching power allowed him to get to world champion. But he was very severely outclassed twice by The Gypsy King due to Tyson's technical know-how and Deontay's lack of technique. I mean the two punches he landed on Fury in the first fight were devastating enough to knock him down, but he was dominated severely throughout the entire fight.

Lastly, I want you to think about a very important question. Assuming, and average Joe would want to compete, what would his motivation be? This is perhaps the most defining characteristic of whether you will succeed or you won't. You stated in another thread that boxing, or martial arts aren't your passion. That's fair enough. But are you boxing in an attempt to impress others? To build yourself up? Many people overlook this but belief and reason has been the driving factor in many world events - from breaking the expectations that the 4-minute mile couldn't be done, to something much more relevant to the topic.

Mike Tyson's defeat to Buster Douglas

Going into the fighter, James "Buster" Douglas was a 42-1 underdog, and people payed not to watch a fight, but what was supposed to be a stone-cold beat down - straight up murder. Unbeknownst to many, Buster spoke about why he won, and why he wasn't afraid going into the match as many fighters had been, in his situation. Buster won, because his mother who had passed away merely weeks before the fight.

"My son James, is going to beat Mike Tyson!"

I hope that answers your question. Your chances of whether you will last or you will fizzle in the world of boxing and martial arts is your why.

 

[Bee Brian]

Well, for starters, I very much doubt you, or any average joe, is prepared Cardio wise. It's nothing against you personally, it's the fact that Boxing is more demanding in terms of Cardio than almost any events out there. I could make a very decent argument about how it's more intensive than swimming, marathons and other cardio related sports because of multiple reasons, but I will talk about the major issue.

• Length

The fact is, that boxing matches end under only two circumstances, apart from some outliers: either a knockout, or both fighters lasting until the end. Assuming, we are talking in terms of professional, high level bouts, that's 12 rounds of 3 gruelling minutes with an opponent who's sole aim for the next half an hour is beating the snot out of you. Even in amateur, beginner level exhibition fights, back at home I believe it was 5 rounds of 1 minute, the fighters are completely gassed by the end. The fact is, that boxing and other similar sports, are the only type of physical challenges that require you to give your all until you or your opponent drops, or for a full 36 minutes. In comparison to, say, swimming, in which the longest event (in personal experience) is a 1600m swim, you can pace yourself to stretch out your stamina for the whole event. And even when pacing yourself, it is uncommon at amateur level to swim for more than 25 minutes. The level of output required in boxing is insane, and you only get to pace yourself in a match if your opponent lets you. There is no one, anywhere in this world, who can go all out (as you would in a boxing match) and not feel like a pig in a sauna for days on end afterwards.

As for raw punching power, that only gets you so far. The best recent example I can think of, are Tyson Fury's matches vs Deontay Wilder. Granted, Deontay Wilder's punching power allowed him to get to world champion. But he was very severely outclassed twice by The Gypsy King due to Tyson's technical know-how and Deontay's lack of technique. I mean the two punches he landed on Fury in the first fight were devastating enough to knock him down, but he was dominated severely throughout the entire fight.

Lastly, I want you to think about a very important question. Assuming, and average Joe would want to compete, what would his motivation be? This is perhaps the most defining characteristic of whether you will succeed or you won't. You stated in another thread that boxing, or martial arts aren't your passion. That's fair enough. But are you boxing in an attempt to impress others? To build yourself up? Many people overlook this but belief and reason has been the driving factor in many world events - from breaking the expectations that the 4-minute mile couldn't be done, to something much more relevant to the topic.

Mike Tyson's defeat to Buster Douglas

Going into the fighter, James "Buster" Douglas was a 42-1 underdog, and people payed not to watch a fight, but what was supposed to be a stone-cold beat down - straight up murder. Unbeknownst to many, Buster spoke about why he won, and why he wasn't afraid going into the match as many fighters had been, in his situation. Buster won, because his mother who had passed away merely weeks before the fight.

"My son James, is going to beat Mike Tyson!"

I hope that answers your question. Your chances of whether you will last or you will fizzle in the world of boxing and martial arts is your why.

My reason is to gain confidence in myself. That's really it.

Thanks again, kid.

 

[Buka]

Well, for starters, I very much doubt you, or any average joe, is prepared Cardio wise. It's nothing against you personally, it's the fact that Boxing is more demanding in terms of Cardio than almost any events out there. I could make a very decent argument about how it's more intensive than swimming, marathons and other cardio related sports because of multiple reasons, but I will talk about the major issue.

• Length

The fact is, that boxing matches end under only two circumstances, apart from some outliers: either a knockout, or both fighters lasting until the end. Assuming, we are talking in terms of professional, high level bouts, that's 12 rounds of 3 gruelling minutes with an opponent who's sole aim for the next half an hour is beating the snot out of you. Even in amateur, beginner level exhibition fights, back at home I believe it was 5 rounds of 1 minute, the fighters are completely gassed by the end. The fact is, that boxing and other similar sports, are the only type of physical challenges that require you to give your all until you or your opponent drops, or for a full 36 minutes. In comparison to, say, swimming, in which the longest event (in personal experience) is a 1600m swim, you can pace yourself to stretch out your stamina for the whole event. And even when pacing yourself, it is uncommon at amateur level to swim for more than 25 minutes. The level of output required in boxing is insane, and you only get to pace yourself in a match if your opponent lets you. There is no one, anywhere in this world, who can go all out (as you would in a boxing match) and not feel like a pig in a sauna for days on end afterwards.

As for raw punching power, that only gets you so far. The best recent example I can think of, are Tyson Fury's matches vs Deontay Wilder. Granted, Deontay Wilder's punching power allowed him to get to world champion. But he was very severely outclassed twice by The Gypsy King due to Tyson's technical know-how and Deontay's lack of technique. I mean the two punches he landed on Fury in the first fight were devastating enough to knock him down, but he was dominated severely throughout the entire fight.

Lastly, I want you to think about a very important question. Assuming, and average Joe would want to compete, what would his motivation be? This is perhaps the most defining characteristic of whether you will succeed or you won't. You stated in another thread that boxing, or martial arts aren't your passion. That's fair enough. But are you boxing in an attempt to impress others? To build yourself up? Many people overlook this but belief and reason has been the driving factor in many world events - from breaking the expectations that the 4-minute mile couldn't be done, to something much more relevant to the topic.

Mike Tyson's defeat to Buster Douglas

Going into the fighter, James "Buster" Douglas was a 42-1 underdog, and people payed not to watch a fight, but what was supposed to be a stone-cold beat down - straight up murder. Unbeknownst to many, Buster spoke about why he won, and why he wasn't afraid going into the match as many fighters had been, in his situation. Buster won, because his mother who had passed away merely weeks before the fight.

"My son James, is going to beat Mike Tyson!"

I hope that answers your question. Your chances of whether you will last or you will fizzle in the world of boxing and martial arts is your why.

The main reason, in my opinion, Tyson lost to Douglas, is Douglas was training harder than he ever had before. Tyson, on the other hand, was banging Japanese hookers two at a time every day leading up to that fight.

I know a bunch of people who won a ton of cash on that fight. I so wish I had listened to them.