I had my shot and I failed

[Gerry Seymour]

You would expect him to show you a perfect demonstration and I feel this way about a trainer. Would you let a beer belly trainer tell you about crunches & diet or show you he's walking proof of his teachings?

If he has a bunch of good fighters, yes. His physique doesn't tell me much about his ability to help others develop theirs. An easy example would be someone who has a back injury and can no longer do a lot of the exercises they find help fighters.

As for a perfect demonstration, two things. Firstly, it doesn't exist. Secondly, all I need is a good enough demo for me to understand what is being asked. The first time we see anything, there's almost no chance we'll even notice all the important points. So if he can show me a decent version of what he's teaching, then help me make the necessary adjustments as I learn, that works.

I'll use myself as an example. I have crappy knees. I cannot stand with my knees bent at certain angles and bear weight (as with things like hip throws) - my knees will simply give out. I have enough skill to alter the technique in a number of ways, so I can still do a hip throw, but it's never with the leg angles students should be practicing. But students still learn a correct hip throw from me.

 

[Dirty Dog]

You would expect him to show you a perfect demonstration and I feel this way about a trainer. Would you let a beer belly trainer tell you about crunches & diet or show you he's walking proof of his teachings?

A perfect demonstration? Doesn't exist.
I am 60. I have one eye, three types of cancer, compression fractures in my spine... And that's just a partial list.
And you think I should be able to do the same workout I did at 20?
You should go back to practicing your Super Secret Deadly Dim Mak Death Touch.

 

[SgtBarnes]

A perfect demonstration? Doesn't exist.
I am 60. I have one eye, three types of cancer, compression fractures in my spine... And that's just a partial list.
And you think I should be able to do the same workout I did at 20?
You should go back to practicing your Super Secret Deadly Dim Mak Death Touch.

I'm a perfectionist

 

[TheArtofDave]

Ivan,

I'm actually happy you didn't make it. In this instance the coaches should have stated they were looking for experienced fighters for their team. It would have at least given you the option to stand back, watch, and see what you needed to do to get on the team. Secondly, if the coaches are drilling so hard they want near perfection you're better off without them.

I would suggest you try out BJJ. Train for a solid two years to see if you enjoy it. Get to rolling, and see if you can apply that knowledge. You'll get all the training and competition you desire. It's different though. You don't usually compete without training. Can't just walk in blind to something you don't know. If you do decide to take my suggestion of training in BJJ it's going to take you six months to a year depending on your progress before they will let you roll. You'll get in shape though, and they'll tell you to keep moving. Good luck, and don't get down on yourself.

 

[SgtBarnes]

If he has a bunch of good fighters, yes. His physique doesn't tell me much about his ability to help others develop theirs. An easy example would be someone who has a back injury and can no longer do a lot of the exercises they find help fighters.

As for a perfect demonstration, two things. Firstly, it doesn't exist. Secondly, all I need is a good enough demo for me to understand what is being asked. The first time we see anything, there's almost no chance we'll even notice all the important points. So if he can show me a decent version of what he's teaching, then help me make the necessary adjustments as I learn, that works.

I'll use myself as an example. I have crappy knees. I cannot stand with my knees bent at certain angles and bear weight (as with things like hip throws) - my knees will simply give out. I have enough skill to alter the technique in a number of ways, so I can still do a hip throw, but it's never with the leg angles students should be practicing. But students still learn a correct hip throw from me.

Ok I'll put it another way, has he or she walked the walk or only talked the talk?
I can't have respect for anyone who tries to teach me and looks like a bag of smashed potatoes.

 

[SgtBarnes]

A perfect demonstration? Doesn't exist.
I am 60. I have one eye, three types of cancer, compression fractures in my spine... And that's just a partial list.
And you think I should be able to do the same workout I did at 20?
You should go back to practicing your Super Secret Deadly Dim Mak Death Touch.

Oh and dirty
Cherry picking my posts and threatening a ban because you're upset is rather childish

 

[SgtBarnes]

But actually this brings another point to the table. Can you criticise the master? If his technique is not performed correctly?

 

[JowGaWolf]

You would expect him to show you a perfect demonstration

I don't expect this.. I've seen numerous times when a teacher cannot show "perfect kata" It's more important that he knows what the correct kata looks like and can correct you when you get it wrong.

Would you let a beer belly trainer tell you about crunches & diet or show you he's walking proof of his teachings?

ha ha ha yes. As long as he knows his stuff, I would. His body has nothing to do with mine. I'll put it this way, would you let a doctor with health issues treat you? I don't know about anyone else, but if he knows his stuff then I'm find with the fact that he may be overweight himself or have high blood pressure.

Do you think all of the gymnastics coaches out there are demonstrating perfect flips as they teach?

 

[JowGaWolf]

You would expect him to show you a perfect demonstration and I feel this way about a trainer. Would you let a beer belly trainer tell you about crunches & diet or show you he's walking proof of his teachings?

My track coach in the 9th grade had a beer gut and couldn't run 50 yards to save his life, but he know his stuff and he once ran Hurdles in college. His training made me the second fastest in the city.

I thought the same way you did "How can this fat guy teach me how to run hurdles and he can't do it himself." Turns out he did an excellent job in teaching me

 

[SgtBarnes]

My track coach in the 9th grade had a beer gut and couldn't run 50 yards to save his life, but he know his stuff and he once ran Hurdles in college. His training made me the second fastest in the state.

I would just want to be an example to my students. Different standards.

 

[JowGaWolf]

A perfect demonstration? Doesn't exist.

I don't know about that. I do a perfect imperfect demonstration. I'm always amazed at how people want perfection more than function.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I would just want to be an example to my students. Different standards.

I understand.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I do think some things are developed during a fight. Folks mentioned earlier the adaptation to the stress of the moment. That's difficult (probably not impossible) to develop without something very much like a fight. You need the adrenaline dump to have a chance to develop that control.

Of course in sparring/wrestling, you can learn how to

- recognize an opportunity,
- catch that opportunity,
- move in through a correct angle,
- apply power while your opponent is moving,
- maintain your own balance when you are moving with your opponent,

It depends on whether you may call those are part of skill developing, or skill testing.

 

[drop bear]

But actually this brings another point to the table. Can you criticise the master? If his technique is not performed correctly?

Correctly is relative. Especially in a combat sport.

 

[drop bear]

Of course in sparring/wrestling, you can learn how to

- recognize an opportunity,
- catch that opportunity,
- move in through a correct angle,
- apply power while your opponent is moving,
- maintain your own balance when you are moving with your opponent,

It depends on whether you may call those are part of skill developing, or skill testing.

The technique you perform in live training is the correct technique. And that is because it is the technique that contains all the details that makes the movement work.

And you mostly cannot get that through drilling.

So you train drills. You get an idea of what you are doing enough to spar.

Then you spar or complete and that is where you learn the actual technique.

So this is ippon seonage.

And this is ippon seonage live.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The technique you perform in live training is the correct technique. And that is because it is the technique that contains all the details that makes the movement work.

And you mostly cannot get that through drilling.

So you train drills. You get an idea of what you are doing enough to spar.

Then you spar or complete and that is where you learn the actual technique.

So this is ippon seonage.

And this is ippon seonage live.

I know what you're getting saying, but I would phrase it a bit differently.

The technique you drill is the ideal fundamental movement that contains the most essential body mechanics for making the move work under a wide variety of circumstances*.

The technique you perform in live training/sparring/fighting is that movement with potentially a large number of in-the-moment modifications to account for the fact that a skilled opponent is doing their best to counter your technique. Since that opponent has a lot of different ways they can be trying to mess you up, you end up with a lot of variations in how the technique actually plays out. As you say, it's not practical to drill all those possibilities. You just drill the essence of the movement and then learn how to modify it on the fly against resistance in sparring. (I should note that this modification becomes less necessary as the discrepancy in skill and/or athleticism between the combatants increases. A Judo Olympian could probably execute all their favorite moves against me in randori and make it look like a textbook kata demonstration.)

*(Sometimes the drill deliberately includes only a portion of the complete technique. For example in Judo it's common to drill the throws in isolation without the setups and grip fighting, or even just the first part of the throw (uchikomi) without the finish.)

 

[SgtBarnes]

Correctly is relative. Especially in a combat sport.

Nope

 

[CB Jones]

Ok I'll put it another way, has he or she walked the walk or only talked the talk?
I can't have respect for anyone who tries to teach me and looks like a bag of smashed potatoes.

You wouldn't be able to respect...Cuss D'Amato, Angelo Dundee, or Lou Duva?

They are hall of fame trainers...

 

[drop bear]

The technique you drill is the ideal fundamental movement that contains the most essential body mechanics for making the move work under a wide variety of circumstances*.

I really don't think this does. I think the fundamental core of the movement is the move live.

Which is why when people drill a move and then fail. It is because they are doing incorrect technique.

This is also why we tend to see good guys drill it is in a much more individual manner. They are reflecting the live version.

 

[drop bear]

Nope

OK. Then how do we have different techniques that still work depending on the guy doing it?