I had my shot and I failed

[JowGaWolf]

The technique you perform in live training/sparring/fighting is that movement with potentially a large number of in-the-moment modifications to account for the fact that a skilled opponent is doing their best to counter your technique.

Yes to this

Which is why when people drill a move and then fail. It is because they are doing incorrect technique.

Yes to this. I think this comes from understanding what you are doing what Tony is talking about. If you understand the application and how it's actually applied then your form will be based on that knowledge. Making it more accurate towards a specific application of that movement.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But actually this brings another point to the table. Can you criticise the master? If his technique is not performed correctly?

Depends what you mean by that. If you mean saying, "Hey, that's not perfect. You should be perfect." Then no.

If you mean, "I see you did X in that. I thought you told us to do Y there. Is there a reason for the difference?" Then sure. Once you at least kinda know what you're doing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I would just want to be an example to my students. Different standards.

I'm guessing you're still young enough not to know that the body changes. For some folks, keeping up a high fitness level (or even low body fat level) isn't realistic.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Can you criticise the master? If his technique is not performed correctly?

Depends on if "the master" believes that he can learn something from the student. For most people that's a difficult thing for them to do. Now if you tell "the master" that his technique isn't performed correctly and then he gets in the ring with you and smashes you with that technique, then that will be a big lesson in humility.

I will use myself as an example. One day a student that I was teaching told me that I performed the technique incorrectly. I thank the student and acknowledge that the student was correct, both in the technique and in picking up my error. I always tell my students not to feel afraid of correcting me. I'm not perfect and sometimes I may have a lot of things going through my mind that throw me off my focus. Sometimes I correct myself. To me this is only natural. It probably gets worse as we age.

A student that can tell when I performed something incorrectly is a student who is paying attention. You would think that my students would lose confidence in me. But they don't. It just makes me more human and less "master" which I have never claimed.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Depends what you mean by that. If you mean saying, "Hey, that's not perfect. You should be perfect." Then no.

If you mean, "I see you did X in that. I thought you told us to do Y there. Is there a reason for the difference?" Then sure. Once you at least kinda know what you're doing.

yeah definitely don't be a butt when correcting the teacher

One thing I've been noticing in Jow Ga land. Is that there has been a shift of what is seen correct. Instead of saying something is incorrect, they are now saying that . It's not the only way to do things, but it is one way to do things. Now if it's flat out wrong then they will say that it's wrong.

It becomes very difficult to say a student is wrong when the student finds another variation of a technique and is able to land it successfully in sparring. The only thing that I hope continues for me is that people let me know when I truly do something incorrect. I rather have a friend tell me that I have a booger hanging out of my nose than to let me walk around for the entire day with it peeking out. Don't be so concerned about my embarrassment that you would rather let me continue to be wrong, than to correct me and end my embarrassment that day.

 

[SgtBarnes]

Depends on if "the master" believes that he can learn something from the student. For most people that's a difficult thing for them to do. Now if you tell "the master" that his technique isn't performed correctly and then he gets in the ring with you and smashes you with that technique, then that will be a big lesson in humility.

I will use myself as an example. One day a student that I was teaching told me that I performed the technique incorrectly. I thank the student and acknowledge that the student was correct, both in the technique and in picking up my error. I always tell my students not to feel afraid of correcting me. I'm not perfect and sometimes I may have a lot of things going through my mind that throw me off my focus. Sometimes I correct myself. To me this is only natural. It probably gets worse as we age.

A student that can tell when I performed something incorrectly is a student who is paying attention. You would think that my students would lose confidence in me. But they don't. It just makes me more human and less "master" which I have never claimed.

If a master is teaching wrong technique in a kata as an example, should that student pass a belt examination?
I have seen this in a shotokan Dojo and the instructor still passed them even although the kata he tought them was utter rubbish. Now later when these people go to another Dojo to be tested what will happen?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

yeah definitely don't be a butt when correcting the teacher

One thing I've been noticing in Jow Ga land. Is that there has been a shift of what is seen correct. Instead of saying something is incorrect, they are now saying that . It's not the only way to do things, but it is one way to do things. Now if it's flat out wrong then they will say that it's wrong.

It becomes very difficult to say a student is wrong when the student finds another variation of a technique and is able to land it successfully in sparring. The only thing that I hope continues for me is that people let me know when I truly do something incorrect. I rather have a friend tell me that I have a booger hanging out of my nose than to let me walk around for the entire day with it peeking out. Don't be so concerned about my embarrassment that you would rather let me continue to be wrong, than to correct me and end my embarrassment that day.

I think a lot of TMA in the past (and still today) get lost in the "that's wrong" approach. There are things I tell students not to do, at least during specific drills, because it takes them away from what we're trying to learn.

The student that best learned from this was a long-time karateka who trained with me for about 3 years (before going back to Germany). At the beginning, he would often ask, "Why should I do X (that I was teaching) instead of Y (thing he already knew)?" I'd answer, "Because that's what you're trying to learn to do. It's another tool in your toolbox. So, let's look at some situations where you might prefer each." We'd take a minute to talk about advantages/disadvantages of each. What was happening was that his karate instructor had tended to use the "you should" and "always do/never do" language, so he wasn't in the habit of evaluating why.

After a few months, he started answering his own question: "I know. It's something new to work with, another tool. I understand." Took almost 2 years before his questions changed to "What's the advantage of X here? And when would I be better off using Y?" - questions he often thought out and didn't need me to answer, but still liked to talk through.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If a master is teaching wrong technique in a kata as an example, should that student pass a belt examination?
I have seen this in a shotokan Dojo and the instructor still passed them even although the kata he tought them was utter rubbish. Now later when these people go to another Dojo to be tested what will happen?

Was it a wrong technique, or a variation in the kata?

And whether a student should pass in that situation depends how you look at both the situation and kata. To me, if the student learned what they were taught, they probably ought to pass (within reason). If the instructor taught something actually wrong (mechanics that are harmful) that's not the student's fault, but should be addressed by the instructor's peers, as best they can.

If the instructor is just teaching a significant variation in the kata, that's only problematic if the student changes schools. It's "correct" in the context of the current school, so shouldn't really bother anyone.

 

[SgtBarnes]

Was it a wrong technique, or a variation in the kata?

And whether a student should pass in that situation depends how you look at both the situation and kata. To me, if the student learned what they were taught, they probably ought to pass (within reason). If the instructor taught something actually wrong (mechanics that are harmful) that's not the student's fault, but should be addressed by the instructor's peers, as best they can.

If the instructor is just teaching a significant variation in the kata, that's only problematic if the student changes schools. It's "correct" in the context of the current school, so shouldn't really bother anyone.

the techniques were not correct & i was there with a guy who was from another club. The Organisation for the style & other styles have a strict programme of teaching. The problem will arrise when these people get tested by outside examiners. I think around senior blue or brown belt.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

the techniques were not correct & i was there with a guy who was from another club. The Organisation for the style & other styles have a strict programme of teaching. The problem will arrise when these people get tested by outside examiners. I think around senior blue or brown belt.

I'd be interested in hearing from someone in that style who is certified to be an external tester, how they view those differences.

 

[drop bear]

the techniques were not correct & i was there with a guy who was from another club. The Organisation for the style & other styles have a strict programme of teaching. The problem will arrise when these people get tested by outside examiners. I think around senior blue or brown belt.

This is image. Not function.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If a master is teaching wrong technique in a kata as an example, should that student pass a belt examination?

Being wrong doesn't mean you are always wrong. It doesn't mean that you are wrong about everything.

Edit: For me the only thing that I will call wrong is doing something that harms me instead of help me.

 

[isshinryuronin]

If you mean, "I see you did X in that. I thought you told us to do Y there. Is there a reason for the difference?" Then sure. Once you at least kinda know what you're doing.

This is the best way for a student to clarify a technique the instructor has executed - acknowledging he has seen something different, but not assuming it was a mistake. An enlightened, respectful approach.

It may have been a mistake. High belts can know many kata (even from other styles) and many techniques. At advanced years, wires may occasionally get temporarily crossed as he is concentrating on teaching or explaining.

But also, a master will play with variations by design and change a move or two in a kata. So a student who studied at one time may do the form differently from somebody who studied with the master ten years later. He may also teach one student one way to do it, and another student a different way, based on the individual's ability level or body type.

Lastly, after many, many years in the art, one realizes that certain small things don't really matter (but I wouldn't necessarily tell a student that! ) Great technique, balance, power, spirit and tactics will carry the day and overshadow most minor irregularities.

 

[Dirty Dog]

This is the best way for a student to clarify a technique the instructor has executed - acknowledging he has seen something different, but not assuming it was a mistake. An enlightened, respectful approach.

It may have been a mistake. High belts can know many kata (even from other styles) and many techniques. At advanced years, wires may occasionally get temporarily crossed as he is concentrating on teaching or explaining.

True enough. There are about 50 forms that I practice and teach.

But also, a master will play with variations by design and change a move or two in a kata. So a student who studied at one time may do the form differently from somebody who studied with the master ten years later. He may also teach one student one way to do it, and another student a different way, based on the individual's ability level or body type.

Certainly. There are stances that I have adjusted to accommodate the fact that I have one eye. Because it's nice to see your opponent. I make it a point to tell students this. When I demonstrate, I tend to do so from the other side.

 

[SgtBarnes]

Edit: For me the only thing that I will call wrong is doing something that harms me instead of help me.

Like getting a good beating because the sensei tought wrong things. It's like some of these self defense systems against knives. Mostly just rubbish and a lot of these experts have never really been in a real nasty brawl.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Like getting a good beating because the sensei tought wrong things. It's like some of these self defense systems against knives. Mostly just rubbish and a lot of these experts have never really been in a real nasty brawl.

I never had that issue. But I have seen it where the student thinks he was taught incorrectly only to discover that his failure was due to his lack of understanding and not the teacher's lack of understanding.

 

[SgtBarnes]

I never had that issue. But I have seen it where the student thinks he was taught incorrectly only to discover that his failure was due to his lack of understanding and not the teacher's lack of understanding.

yeah well ... it´s correct or it´s not. simple as that. can waffle here all day but it´s the way it is.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It's like some of these self defense systems against knives. Mostly just rubbish and a lot of these experts have never really been in a real nasty brawl.

I don't flock to those types of teachers. They are questionable to me way before I determine that they may be good to learn from. If you don't train with these type of people then you don't have that issue either.

 

[SgtBarnes]

I mean some interpratations are ok as say ...entering into an armbar or choke. a lot possibilities but if learning kata it´s correct or it´s not.

 

[SgtBarnes]

I don't flock to those types of teachers. They are questionable to me way before I determine that they may be good to learn from. If you don't train with these type of people then you don't have that issue either.

I have met a couple of real idiots believe me. The big Master....hahaha
expect everyone to kiss their @ss