What are the reasons for time-in-grade?

[Gerry Seymour]

TIG gets people out of the "cramming for the next test" mentality and into the "honing the art for the sake of honing the art" mentality for a period, a mentality that people who are highly motivated to gain rank might rarely be in if they could test again and again as soon as they wanted solely on a crisp form and competent sparring.

While I think it does create that dynamic, I don't think TIG requirement is necessarily the best way to do that. The same can be accomplished by simply making sure folks know that getting all the material doesn't mean they're almost ready to test.

 

[Flying Crane]

Easy solution: if you have a published curriculum for each level, you spread out teaching the curriculum so there is time to digest and develop an understanding of each new item before the next item is taught. By the time all items are taught and the last item has had time for digestion, that minimum time has been reached and nobody even knows it was part of the equation.

This also gives room for the instructor to adjust the rate based on a student's aptitude for the material. If the student is able to digest more quickly, then you teach the next item sooner. So the TIG issue becomes more about ensuring the material gets digested and less about an arbitrary time.

Don’t teach the whole curriculum for the next level right away, and then tell someone “well there ya go, be ready to test in three years...”. That is lazy teaching. The teacher needs to stay involved with the process along the way and work with the student on the digestion. A lazy instructor dumps all the material on the student quickly, and then thinks his job is done. Nothing left to do but collect the tuition check and the testing fees. Lazy.

 

[skribs]

Easy solution: if you have a published curriculum for each level, you spread out teaching the curriculum so there is time to digest and develop an understanding of each new item before the next item is taught. By the time all items are taught and the last item has had time for digestion, that minimum time has been reached and nobody even knows it was part of the equation.

This also gives room for the instructor to adjust the rate based on a student's aptitude for the material. If the student is able to digest more quickly, then you teach the next item sooner. So the TIG issue becomes more about ensuring the material gets digested and less about an arbitrary time.

Don’t teach the whole curriculum for the next level right away, and then tell someone “well there ya go, be ready to test in three years...”. That is lazy teaching. The teacher needs to stay involved with the process along the way and work with the student on the digestion. A lazy instructor dumps all the material on the student quickly, and then thinks his job is done. Nothing left to do but collect the tuition check and the testing fees. Lazy.

I disagree completely with this. This makes sense for the first couple of things you teach, but then the last few things feel like they are thrown in at the end. Students feel like they haven't had enough time to work on these last few things before they're thrown in.

I agree you shouldn't dump everything on them at once, but to hold off part of the curriculum until much has its own problems as well.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Stupidest damn thing I've ever seen.

Ahhh, Buka. I must disagree with you this time. Time in grade, while some flexibility may be considered, I believe serves a valuable purpose, especially for the higher black belt grades. Time in grade leading to automatic promotions in McDojos is not the topic here.

I agree with Mitlov that it takes away the "cramming for the next belt test" mentality where promotion is the overriding factor. It allows the practitioner to forget about future advancement for awhile and allows him to live in the present. As in kyudo archery where the target is forgotten, that practitioner can immerse him/herself in the experience of drawing and loosing the arrow itself. Too focused on the destination of the journey, one can easily miss all the sights (and lessons) along the way. I feel this is very true.

Time in grade, as has been mentioned, helps develop patience, an important martial attribute. It also serves to counter one's ego that he is deserving of the next belt NOW. Not willing to wait 3 years for 3rd degree? Too high a price to pay? Of that little value to you? OK, Sayanora! A mandatory waiting time allows the instructor to observe the student over some years to evaluate the student's self-introspection in regards to both his art and character. It takes time for a vintage to age and mellow and let the full notes develop.

As some may recall, I returned to karate last year after a very long lay off. I must say, in many ways my karate is much better now than twenty-five years ago. Time can do so much. (Yes, a quote from Ebb Tide, by the Righteous Brothers).

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I disagree completely with this. This makes sense for the first couple of things you teach, but then the last few things feel like they are thrown in at the end. Students feel like they haven't had enough time to work on these last few things before they're thrown in.

I agree you shouldn't dump everything on them at once, but to hold off part of the curriculum until much has its own problems as well.

The trick is to make the curriculum gradual, so that you are still learning and training the last belt (and all previous belts too) at your next level. When you start feeling like something is crammed in and you don't have enough time to learn it, that means you should be spending more time going over it in the future.

 

[JP3]

Now give me that answer as if I'm a teenager.

OK, here goes: "Because I said so, that's why."

I bet that doesn't work, though I have said that before.

I've always considered time in grade a troubling thing for just the type of situation you've described. I've been "guilty" (?) of violating that paradigm myself, once in kyu grades in TKD, HKD and Aikido... and again in dan ranks in Aikido.

For me it really is a troubling thing to say, "Hey, I know you're competent enough to be X rank, but you've only been at the material for 6 months, so we're not going to promote you until you complete the 2 years time & grade. Yes, I know you can compete witht hose others of X rank, even some who are past that, but hey, rules are rules, so we're going to hold you back."

It is a thing which bothered me, still does. Then again, lots of times people "think" they're ready when they're clearly not, which is a different issue entirely. Whose communication about expectations needs fixing?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I disagree completely with this. This makes sense for the first couple of things you teach, but then the last few things feel like they are thrown in at the end. Students feel like they haven't had enough time to work on these last few things before they're thrown in.

I agree you shouldn't dump everything on them at once, but to hold off part of the curriculum until much has its own problems as well.

I can provide an example of this issue. In most of NGA, most kicks are tested at green belt (3rd of 6 kyu), and are often taught shortly before the student is ready to test. Most students will never use their kicks much, partly because they really don’t get a chance to develop them before the test. They are typically only worked before each test that includes them.

 

[Flying Crane]

I disagree completely with this. This makes sense for the first couple of things you teach, but then the last few things feel like they are thrown in at the end. Students feel like they haven't had enough time to work on these last few things before they're thrown in.

I agree you shouldn't dump everything on them at once, but to hold off part of the curriculum until much has its own problems as well.

I really don’t follow you. At all.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I really don’t follow you. At all.

I think he's talking about the problem with the last few techniques (or whatever) that are taught before testing. They likely won't receive the same attention that the earlier techniques got. That's solve easily enough by leaving a gap before testing (which is essentially the same resolution as teaching it all up front, then leaving them in-grade a while to work through the material). In essence, either way, you're keeping them in-grade for a time, whether it's a formal requirement/guideline, or not. I think most good instructors take some form of this approach.

The same effect can also be had by not introducing new material right after a test. Get folks to the memorization stage, test them and promote, then let them progress that material to the next stage before they get anything new - presumably testing for that "next stage" at the next test.

 

[skribs]

I really don’t follow you. At all.

Let's say that for your test, you have to learn a series of punches, kicks, a kata, and a handful of grappling concepts. Your test is in 6 months.

Right away, I teach you the kata. So you have 6 months to learn the kata.
I wait a month and teach you the punches. So you have 5 months to learn the punches.
I wait two months and teach you the kicks. So you have 3 months to learn the kicks.
I wait another two months and teach you the grappling. So you have 1 month to learn the grappling.

So where you have 6 months to learn the kata, and even a month dedicated solely to the kata, you have only 1 month to learn the grappling.

Now, let's say the time-in-grade is a year instead of 6 months, but we use the same spacing. So you have a 7 month period where there isn't really anything new.

Unless the grappling concepts are less important, they are going to be crammed. And when a blue belt is asking a red belt "what did you need for your test?" and the test is a month away and they still haven't learned grappling, they're going to be really nervous about that part.

 

[skribs]

OK, here goes: "Because I said so, that's why."

I bet that doesn't work, though I have said that before.

I've always considered time in grade a troubling thing for just the type of situation you've described. I've been "guilty" (?) of violating that paradigm myself, once in kyu grades in TKD, HKD and Aikido... and again in dan ranks in Aikido.

For me it really is a troubling thing to say, "Hey, I know you're competent enough to be X rank, but you've only been at the material for 6 months, so we're not going to promote you until you complete the 2 years time & grade. Yes, I know you can compete witht hose others of X rank, even some who are past that, but hey, rules are rules, so we're going to hold you back."

It is a thing which bothered me, still does. Then again, lots of times people "think" they're ready when they're clearly not, which is a different issue entirely. Whose communication about expectations needs fixing?

Personally, I think anyone who demands rank because they think they deserve it, doesn't deserve it. The problem is then convincing them of this.

 

[Flying Crane]

Let's say that for your test, you have to learn a series of punches, kicks, a kata, and a handful of grappling concepts. Your test is in 6 months.

Right away, I teach you the kata. So you have 6 months to learn the kata.
I wait a month and teach you the punches. So you have 5 months to learn the punches.
I wait two months and teach you the kicks. So you have 3 months to learn the kicks.
I wait another two months and teach you the grappling. So you have 1 month to learn the grappling.

So where you have 6 months to learn the kata, and even a month dedicated solely to the kata, you have only 1 month to learn the grappling.

Now, let's say the time-in-grade is a year instead of 6 months, but we use the same spacing. So you have a 7 month period where there isn't really anything new.

Unless the grappling concepts are less important, they are going to be crammed. And when a blue belt is asking a red belt "what did you need for your test?" and the test is a month away and they still haven't learned grappling, they're going to be really nervous about that part.

Well, that is really a problem with telling someone “congratulations on your new belt, and by the way, you test again in six months.” I find issue with that kind of automatic regularity. In the end, people should test when they are ready. That means they need time to learn the material and time to digest that material, while maintaining the material that they had already learned. Once a student is taught the final item needed for the next test, he needs whatever amount of time is necessary for reasonable digestion. If that means he needs another six months or a year or two or three years for that to happen, then that is what it takes. A new kata, for example, can me “learned” (memorized) in a couple weeks to a couple months, depending on how long and complex it is. But a good digestion can take years. Really understanding how to use it all, and developing skills that are equal to that mental understanding, take time. I don’t feel promotions should be given for simple memorization. I think promotions should come when some reasonable level of understanding and skill are met.

But that’s just me. I don’t run the world.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think he's talking about the problem with the last few techniques (or whatever) that are taught before testing. They likely won't receive the same attention that the earlier techniques got. That's solve easily enough by leaving a gap before testing (which is essentially the same resolution as teaching it all up front, then leaving them in-grade a while to work through the material). In essence, either way, you're keeping them in-grade for a time, whether it's a formal requirement/guideline, or not. I think most good instructors take some form of this approach.

The same effect can also be had by not introducing new material right after a test. Get folks to the memorization stage, test them and promote, then let them progress that material to the next stage before they get anything new - presumably testing for that "next stage" at the next test.

Yeah, I had said that by the time the last item is taught, and has time for reasonable digestion...

 

[TSDTexan]

In all honesty, the TIG exists for $$$$$.
"Dangle a carrot."

Another thing that actually would be more helpful than TIG, is proficiency certifications on an annual basis.

gotta keep your skills sharp.

 

[skribs]

In all honesty, the TIG exists for $$$$$.
"Dangle a carrot."

Another thing that actually would be more helpful than TIG, is proficiency certifications on an annual basis.

gotta keep your skills sharp.

That's funny. Because when I mentioned that we have intermediate tests between dan ranks at my school, the reason people said was $$$$ for testing fees.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In all honesty, the TIG exists for $$$$$.

That's not as universal as your statement seems to suggest. Most places I've seen TIG, the time shown is a pretty good approximation of how long it takes people to make the progress required for the next rank.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's funny. Because when I mentioned that we have intermediate tests between dan ranks at my school, the reason people said was $$$$ for testing fees.

I think sometimes folks look for what could be wrong, and assume it is, rather than also considering other motivations.

 

[Buka]

Ahhh, Buka. I must disagree with you this time. Time in grade, while some flexibility may be considered, I believe serves a valuable purpose, especially for the higher black belt grades. Time in grade leading to automatic promotions in McDojos is not the topic here.

I agree with Mitlov that it takes away the "cramming for the next belt test" mentality where promotion is the overriding factor. It allows the practitioner to forget about future advancement for awhile and allows him to live in the present. As in kyudo archery where the target is forgotten, that practitioner can immerse him/herself in the experience of drawing and loosing the arrow itself. Too focused on the destination of the journey, one can easily miss all the sights (and lessons) along the way. I feel this is very true.

Time in grade, as has been mentioned, helps develop patience, an important martial attribute. It also serves to counter one's ego that he is deserving of the next belt NOW. Not willing to wait 3 years for 3rd degree? Too high a price to pay? Of that little value to you? OK, Sayanora! A mandatory waiting time allows the instructor to observe the student over some years to evaluate the student's self-introspection in regards to both his art and character. It takes time for a vintage to age and mellow and let the full notes develop.

As some may recall, I returned to karate last year after a very long lay off. I must say, in many ways my karate is much better now than twenty-five years ago. Time can do so much. (Yes, a quote from Ebb Tide, by the Righteous Brothers).

Allow me to elaborate. I don't believe that just because somebody is at a particular rank for a specific amount of time they should be automatically promoted to the next rank. Especially Dan rankings. I mean, seriously, what the hell is up with that?

And let's say one black belt trains four days a week and works his butt off every single day. His dojo brother trains once a week and pretty much mails it in. What, an instructor is supposed to promote/evaluate them equally because they've both been Black Belts for two years?

And a common thing I have always heard in Martial lore is "Black Belt is just the beginning". Oh really now? Then why are there SO many Black belts in this country that aren't in shape, no longer train worth a damn and couldn't fight there way out of a wet paper bag with scissors in both hands? And I'm not even talking about McDojos.

 

[skribs]

Allow me to elaborate. I don't believe that just because somebody is at a particular rank for a specific amount of time they should be automatically promoted to the next rank. Especially Dan rankings. I mean, seriously, what the hell is up with that?

And let's say one black belt trains four days a week and works his butt off every single day. His dojo brother trains once a week and pretty much mails it in. What, an instructor is supposed to promote/evaluate them equally because they've both been Black Belts for two years?

And a common thing I have always heard in Martial lore is "Black Belt is just the beginning". Oh really now? Then why are there SO many Black belts in this country that aren't in shape, no longer train worth a damn and couldn't fight there way out of a wet paper bag with scissors in both hands? And I'm not even talking about McDojos.

I'm not talking about automatic advancements based on time. I'm talking about gates based on time.

 

[Buka]

I'm not talking about automatic advancements based on time. I'm talking about gates based on time.

Forgive me, I don't know what that means. A "gate".
Do you mean the opportunity to test after a particular length of time? If so, my reply stands as is.