What are some differences between Karate and Taekwondo?

[TrueJim]

...We'd be told that when you walk it's on two parallel lines not one foot exactly in front of another so it's the same with front, back, cat stance etc.

Even walking on two lines...doesn't it take extra leg/knee strength to keep a uniform height as you go through the poomsae? For example if I'm in a long-front-stance, and I step forward into another long-front-stance, in order to keep my head-height uniform as I step, I need to be holding all my weight on one leg with a bent knee as I step forward. On some days that even makes my knees creak a bit.

So with regard to beginners, I think to some extent the problem is that they haven't yet developed the muscle memory to keep their head-height constant throughout the step, but in some cases also their joints and muscles aren't yet strong enough to do it well. Personally, not keeping constant head-height is something I always need to keep working on.

FYI Taekwondo Sine Wave

 

[Prototype]

It was not a part of my earliest training

Glad to see we have dinosaurs in here who were actually around and are able to refute rubbish claims. You started training ITF when exactly?

 

[Tez3]

Even walking on two lines...doesn't it take extra leg/knee strength to keep a uniform height as you go through the poomsae? For example if I'm in a long-front-stance, and I step forward into another long-front-stance, in order to keep my head-height uniform as I step, I need to be holding all my weight on one leg with a bent knee as I step forward. On some days that even makes my knees creak a bit.

So with regard to beginners, I think to some extent the problem is that they haven't yet developed the muscle memory to keep their head-height constant throughout the step, but in some cases also their joints and muscles aren't yet strong enough to do it well. Personally, not keeping constant head-height is something I always need to keep working on.

FYI Taekwondo Sine Wave

In Wado our stances are shorter and more upright than Shotokan's ( that's the only other karate style I know) we have 26 or so stances lol. We have a very short one which I believe is also used in kendo and aikido called Renojidachi, we have four front stances, none of which are as deep as TKDs or TSDs.

In Shingo Ohgami's book ( my favourite reference) he says when training Junzuki you have to be careful concerning the following points Quote 1. Keep your body straight ( keep your back vertical to the floor) from the beginning to the end ( balance). 2. Keep the same height. Don't go up and down ( concentration of energy, the principle of the shortest distance). Unquote. He does say at a very advance level it's possible to use the energy of going up and down to get more power but I don't know anyone who does it, perhaps it's very, very advanced lol. Perhaps too it may work on the shorter stances we do rather than the deeper ones? I don't know, I tend to know what works for me and for students but the science type stuff is beyond me. In the book there's some amazing equations he does to show the power of strikes, goes way over my head I'm afraid. Starts off " when a force meets a surface s, the effective element of F to s is the vertical part of F, that is to say F sin" ...... and there is goes off into symbols I can't even find on my keyboard never mind my brain lol! It's a cracking book though as is the companion one on kata's.

 

[Earl Weiss]

"Grandmaster Choi had completed Tong Il, the final Pattern of the original 24 Tul by 1963"

http://www.itkd.co.nz/reference/essays/6-pattern-history.pdf

Thank You for providing the source. Sorry to say but the source is wrong depending on how you look at it and here is why. Tong Il is the Final Pattern and it appears in the 1965 Book. However , that book only contains the 20 patterns that he had created for circulation prior to that point. 4 more were created after that and did not appear in publication until the 1972 Book. Tong Il remained as the Final pattern.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I have the condensed version of the encyclopedia. I think that the "front kick with knee" was left out of it. same thing for the foot placement in the forms. Sad, because i was hoping it would have that. You get what you pay for I guess...

Sorry, My terminology error. Check Toi Gye # 21 , It's "Upward Kick " with knee, not front kick.

 

[Earl Weiss]

That the original TaeKwon-Do system from General Choi was promoted without Knee Spring/Sinewave. It was Shotokan repackaged.

Therein lies the debate. Prototype like lots of General Choi detractors claims General Choi simply repackaged Shotokan. yet they choose to ignore that the same could be said of Fuankoshi repackaging Shorin and Shorei systems, or Kano repackaging Ju Jitsu , Ueshiba repackaging etc. etc. etc.

Further it's silly to make such a critique when those such as General Choi, Fuankoshi etc. readily acknowledge and give credit to the roots of their arts.

As the OP questioned "What are the differences" . That is like asking about the differences between breeds of dogs. Some are very simiklar, some less so, yet they are distinctive.

 

[NinjaChristian]

Sorry, My terminology error. Check Toi Gye # 21 , It's "Upward Kick " with knee, not front kick.

I am talking about the knee strike where you pick up your knee and thrust it forward with your hips, as opposed to lifting it straight up as when attacking a bent over target.

 

[Azulx]

Where can I get Gen. Choi's encyclopedia?

 

[TrueJim]

...lots of General Choi detractors claims General Choi simply repackaged Shotokan. yet they choose to ignore that the same could be said of Fuankoshi repackaging Shorin and Shorei systems, or Kano repackaging Ju Jitsu, Ueshiba repackaging etc. etc. etc.

Just to pile-on: Yes. As I alluded to a couple of pages ago, Prototype has a death-grip on the obvious. His contention is neither new nor interesting. Taekwondo is largely based on Shotokan and nowadays essentially everybody acknowledges this. Perhaps in the 1950-1960s some taekwondo pioneers might have been loathe to admit this, but at this point it's just well-known, widely-acknowledged history. The early pioneers took karate, sprinkled in a bit of this and that...and out came taekwondo. Which is basically how all new martial arts have been developed throughout history.

Gillis was making a similar rant a few weeks ago in his Facebook group, at which time I pointed out: Alex...you won, ages ago. But some people just can't admit victory.

 

[TrueJim]

Where can I get Gen. Choi's encyclopedia?

Some freely-downloadable PDFs can be found here: The Encyclopedia of Taekwon-Do

If anybody knows of downloadable links to other editions, I'd love to know them.

 

[Prototype]

Therein lies the debate. Prototype like lots of General Choi detractors claims General Choi simply repackaged Shotokan. yet they choose to ignore that the same could be said of Fuankoshi repackaging Shorin and Shorei systems, or Kano repackaging Ju Jitsu , Ueshiba repackaging etc. etc. etc.

Further it's silly to make such a critique when those such as General Choi, Fuankoshi etc. readily acknowledge and give credit to the roots of their arts.

Funakoshi also made his own mark on Karate, for better or worse. Either he or his son implemented mawashi geri(roundhouse kick) among other things. General Choi took everything from those systems, including philosophy, and pretended it was Korean made. Choi offically declared in 1963 that all traces of Karate were eliminated. His own patterns were completed by that time, or that statement would make very little sense. Why there are only 20 patterns in the 1965 edition may have been for other reasons.

 

[TrueJim]

General Choi took everything from those systems, including philosophy, and pretended it was Korean made...

Yah! He took everything! You hear me? EVERYTHING!!! Except...the forms. And he made a lot of small changes to the stances and the techniques. And developed his own theory of power. And added Sine Wave. And made up his own Oath and Tenets. But other than that...he took EVERYTHING!

 

[Prototype]

Yah! He took everything! You hear me? EVERYTHING!!! Except...the forms.

Newsflash: The forms are from, guess again, Shotokan. They are mixed around.

And he made a lot of small changes to the stances.

No he didn't. I already refuted that, easily.

And developed his own theory of power. And added Sine Wave. And made up his own Oath and Tenets.

Not in the 50 and 60s he didn't.

 

[NinjaChristian]

Funakoshi also made his own mark on Karate, for better or worse. Either he or his son implemented mawashi geri(roundhouse kick) among other things. General Choi took everything from those systems, including philosophy, and pretended it was Korean made. Choi officially declared in 1963 that all traces of Karate were eliminated. His own patterns were completed by that time, or that statement would make very little sense. Why there are only 20 patterns in the 1965 edition may have been for other reasons.

Therein lies the debate. Prototype like lots of General Choi detractors claims General Choi simply repackaged Shotokan. yet they choose to ignore that the same could be said of Fuankoshi repackaging Shorin and Shorei systems, or Kano repackaging Ju Jitsu , Ueshiba repackaging etc. etc. etc.

Further it's silly to make such a critique when those such as General Choi, Fuankoshi etc. readily acknowledge and give credit to the roots of their arts.

As the OP questioned "What are the differences" . That is like asking about the differences between breeds of dogs. Some are very simiklar, some less so, yet they are distinctive.

If this argument must continue, please start a new thread devoted to that topic. I am sure much can be learned from your guys knowledge on the subject, but I would appreciate it if this thread was brought back to the original topic now.

 

[Prototype]

If this argument must continue, please start a new thread devoted to that topic. I am sure much can be learned from your guys knowledge on the subject, but I would appreciate it if this thread was brought back to the original topic now.

If you are led to believe that the blocks or whatever are different, why not just google it?

 

[NinjaChristian]

Which style or styles of karate are most like TKD? Which style or styles of karate are least like TKD? What makes them different from TKD, and what makes them similar?

 

[TrueJim]

...Not in the 50 and 60s he didn't.

So I guess your thesis is....that during the 1950s, before Choi had finished making all of his changes to Shotokan, he still should have been calling it Shotokan? Like, the fact that Choi was in the process of making changes isn't good enough...until he had all the changes finished, he should have kept with the "Shotokan" name.

I mean, Choi wasn't calling it taekwondo either, not until the 1960s, so your complaint can't be that Choi was calling Shotokan "taekwondo" -- because clearly he wasn't -- the term hadn't even been coined yet. Choi didn't start calling it taekwondo until he had a lot of his changes in place. But that's not good enough?

 

[NinjaChristian]

Where can I get Gen. Choi's encyclopedia?

I got my condensed version from amazon.com. The full version is a lot more expensive, but it also contains much more detail. I have(well, had, until I find it again ) the 1965 version; apparently there is a later version, but I am not sure of the differences.

 

[Prototype]

Which style or styles of karate are most like TKD? Which style or styles of karate are least like TKD? What makes them different from TKD, and what makes them similar?

Dude, there are half a dozen TKD styles. KKW/WTF is the least similiar one - they chamber their kicks completely different from Karatekas. ITF/Chang Hon is the most similiar - they chamber identically.

Here you can see the two difference ways of chambering the kicks:

KKW/WTF style (picture( - ITF Vs Kukkiwon Dollyo Chagi

ITF style (picture) roundhouse kick | Taekwondo Fighter


So: ITF identical to Shotokan (semi circle chambering). KKW (Straight chamber) not at all like Karate styles.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Glad to see we have dinosaurs in here who were actually around and are able to refute rubbish claims. You started training ITF when exactly?

1968 or 1969.
However, I'm not in any way supporting your rubbish claims. Given how new the curriculum was, I'd say it was far more likely that my earliest training - which took place on American Air Force bases, for the most part - was not up to the standards the General wanted. It's not like there were enough high-Dan instructors to go around, at that time.