Korean Karate Taekwondo...uh??

[MissTwisties]

I get paid only $135 a week to take care of one full time child that spend an average of 45 hours in my daycare. I do not make money at all right now with only one child in my daycare, I have more expenses than I have an income. Kids are really hard to find in our area right now. It's not an easy business, and the people who think family daycare providers are getting rich at doing this job, they couldn't be any more wrong. Yes some daycare do real well, but the average family daycare provider is doing it to be home with their own kids more than they are doing it for the money...

Now, I could be wrong but I understand that some of these child day care centers charge a couple hundred dollars a month. Furthermore, they need to be licensed, inspected and regulated. I wonder if these parents would be so all-fired anxious to have their little dears learn how to break someones' body if Martial Arts schools charged the same as daycare centers because THEY TOO needed to be licensed, inspected and regulated? Isn't that really what the parents are looking for

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Dr and Miss Twisties:

PLEASE don't go off in the wrong direction with this. I am not making ANY judgements or casting ANY aspersions, honestly! All I wanted to provide is a counterpoint from the perspective of somebody who has been approached, and resisted overtures, to teach children. Honest, I really do understand what you are saying from the standpoint of the good of the children and even possible recruitment of additional adult students (parents). None of this is lost on me. When you read other posts of mine you will see that I have a special concern for the Integrity of the KMA as it is handed off to the next generation. I don't want to see it diluted, or bastardized, or misrepresented or exploited. And unlike an actual Human Being the KMA can't, of itself, speak up and protect itself.

Right now I am a Hapkido teacher in a KMA community that is twisting Hapkido nine-ways-from-Sunday. I also teach Kum-Bup in an area where it is becoming increasingly popular to use foam bats and have the students "go-at-it". We have people coming on Nets like this and voicing positions regarding KMA history that have been PROVEN to be erroneous. PLEASE don't think that I am discounting your investment in your child's experience. Just know that I need to speak on behalf of the Korean traditions we have and their protection. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[ajs1976]

Bruce,

I know where you were coming from, but I was not sure if MissTwisties did. With my post I was just attempting to bridge the gap a little.

 

[MissTwisties]

I understand. But for your information, I am more concerned myself of what the Master and his school will teach my daughter...meaning, I have been asking MANY questions. I have visited other schools, made numerous phone calls, etc. because I wanted to find a school exactly where my daughter wouldn't just be "playing karate around". I wanted her to learn the real thing. If I want her to just "exercice" on a floor mat, she can do that at home or outside in our backyard. I want her to learn real martial arts, to be able to defend herself later in life, to learn good values such as respect of herself and others, self-esteem, courage, etc.. and I will not know after one class if this school I chosed for her will do just that. I really *hope* I didn't choose a school running like a "after hours daycare"....that would be very disapointing to me. I know they do have an after school program, I've seen it plastered on the Master's SUV in the parking lot. Most kids coming for that program are coming on vouchers, the parents do not even pay for that. I pay $85/month, so I hope they will teach her the taekwondo, and not just some "physical activity for little kids"...if you understand what I'm trying to say.

 

[terryl965]

MissTwisties' daughter is only five years old. even though she is probably a very mature 5 year old, I doubt she is ready to start learning forms, one-steps and sparring. The important part right now is that her daughter is enjoying the class.

My master has one of these pre-school classes. I think he describes it as a gym class with a Taekwondo feel. Even though the kids are not training in the traditional sense, the games that they are playing help to build skills that will help them when they progress to the next class.

Your right, some parents do leave and treat the classes like daycare, but like MissTwisties, most parents stay and watch. After class they will ask the instructor what they can do to help their child.

A number of these parents will start training. About half the adults in my class, started because they have kids that train.

Doc Clean I teach and have three son's that started learning as soon as they could walk and your comment about Can't learn forms well all my kids by the time they where 5 could do all forms up to Red Belt my oldest is 10 and he knows all the Chon-ji and the Tae Gueks along with most of the old Dai forms from the seventies Childern can and will learn if you are discipline enough to teach.
P.S. They also know there one steps!!!!!!
My Best regards
Terry Lee Stoker
4th Dan WTF

 

[ajs1976]

I said that I doubted a five year old was ready to learn the forms, not that a five your old could not learn the forms.

But if I offended anyones children by doubting their capabilities, I apologize.

 

[tsdclaflin]

Balance, balance, balance...

Too strict or too fun? There has to be balance. As most of us know, the martial arts had to adapt to American culture. Thank God the training is not like it was 40 years ago when students were beaten and abused to "toughen" them up.

My children stopped going (I actually pulled them) from training after a "good" instructor left the school and was replaced 4 times in 8 months. In one case, a "new" instructor taught the kids class and my youngest son was afraid and in tears before the class was over. (To the credit of the school, he was not allowed to teach again.) Shame on me because I wasn't there. I will not allow that to happen again. I stayed at the school and finished out my contract and then left. I could handle the abuse, but would not subject my children to it.

There are good parents and bad parents; good schools and bad schools. MissTwisties, keep up the good work!

 

[rmclain]

What are the "Dai" forms from the 1970's? I'm not familiary with those.


R. McLain

 

[MichiganTKD]

Nobody said we had to teach children the same as adults. They are different and must be taught differently. However, one of the reasons Tae Kwon Do has undergone such a negative perception in many peoples' minds is the fact that many Instructors market it as, and it is considered by many parents, cheap daycare. Keep them occupied for 1-2 hours, doesn't matter how, until mom and dad get home.
It is perfectly alright to take some Tae Kwon Do aspects and modify them to make them palatable for kids. Kids do not have the physical or mental capability to practice TKD as originally intended, so they can do TKD Lite. Not a problem. What I have a problem with is Instructors who take a respectable martial art and dumb it down to keep junior occupied until mom comes to pick him up. That includes: using kicking targets to play tag, using headgear to play catch or ball games, using belts as body ornaments. I want to bang my head against a wall whenever I see that. Those items have a use, and that ain't it. Then we wonder why TKD is dismissed as a kid's activity.

 

[DuneViking]

Wow,

Seems like the origonal question posed in this thread was answered quite well and developed into something else altogether. Yep, Korean Karate was used to help people understand what Tae Kwon Do is and its use is fading.

Congratulations to you for asking questions and staying to watch your child!! It is obvious from your writings you are serious about having her learn. I think the previous remarks, from my humble interpretation, were intended to help you as a parent understand that there are those clubs out there that will do as illustrated. Again, bravo for being so involved! I do not think there is anything wrong with enjoying the experience, especialy with little ones. It is a rare exception that such young kids can train like adults and even moreso when they first begin. Kudos to you again.

 

[MissTwisties]

I don't see how you can call that "cheap" daycare in any way. That is almost insulting if you ask me, probably because I am a family daycare provider myself, and paying $85/month for roughly 4 hours of classes A MONTH ($21.25 for each half an hour...) is not considered cheap to me. We have to cut elsewhere to be able to send her there, along with our oldest going to soccer.

I get paid $3.00/hour (equals: $27.00 a day/ $135 for a 45 hours week..). And it's not babysitting that I'm doing. I have to follow a curriculum of activities for the kids, prepare meals and snacks, pay for special additional training/CPR/First Aid/equipment/food/bills/renovation or improvements of the house, etc.

I can say one thing for sure; If after a few weeks/months that my daughter is in this TKD school and I don't see any type of real TKD training, and if it's mostly just "fun and running around", she will probably be out of there. I didn't send her to the playground, I sent her to TKD school. It's ok to have fun at her age, yes, as long as she is also learning the TKD techniques.

 

[terryl965]

Wow,

Seems like the origonal question posed in this thread was answered quite well and developed into something else altogether. Yep, Korean Karate was used to help people understand what Tae Kwon Do is and its use is fading.

Congratulations to you for asking questions and staying to watch your child!! It is obvious from your writings you are serious about having her learn. I think the previous remarks, from my humble interpretation, were intended to help you as a parent understand that there are those clubs out there that will do as illustrated. Again, bravo for being so involved! I do not think there is anything wrong with enjoying the experience, especialy with little ones. It is a rare exception that such young kids can train like adults and even moreso when they first begin. Kudos to you again.

Very well put Dune Viking.I'll give you a point.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Michigan TKD:

"......What I have a problem with is Instructors who take a respectable martial art and dumb it down to keep junior occupied until mom comes to pick him up....."

For my part I don't stop there. The "dumbing-down" that you mention can happen on a lot of levels. For instance, there is the romantic view of KMA steming from fables of Hwa Rang warriors. There are the "tough guy" schools that figure all the kids need is a little "toughening-up". There are the Phys Ed nuts who present martial arts as nothing more than exotic gymnastics. And, as you say, there are the folks who represent MA as good time-structuring for kids caught between daily phases. If someone wants to keep the bills paid and their doors open, they might begin to pander to what the kids view the MA to be. For instance I have been getting a lot of "KILL BILL" questions about my sword classes. When the NINJA TURTLES and the POWER RANGERS came out the kids wanted to be just like THEM. I don't want to see KMA become another venue for pop-culture as I consider this also a form of "dumbing-down". FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[terryl965]

I don't see how you can call that "cheap" daycare in any way. That is almost insulting if you ask me, probably because I am a family daycare provider myself, and paying $85/month for roughly 4 hours of classes A MONTH ($21.25 for each half an hour...) is not considered cheap to me. We have to cut elsewhere to be able to send her there, along with our oldest going to soccer.

I get paid $3.00/hour (equals: $27.00 a day/ $135 for a 45 hours week..). And it's not babysitting that I'm doing. I have to follow a curriculum of activities for the kids, prepare meals and snacks, pay for special additional training/CPR/First Aid/equipment/food/bills/renovation or improvements of the house, etc.

I can say one thing for sure; If after a few weeks/months that my daughter is in this TKD school and I don't see any type of real TKD training, and if it's mostly just "fun and running around", she will probably be out of there. I didn't send her to the playground, I sent her to TKD school. It's ok to have fun at her age, yes, as long as she is also learning the TKD techniques.

Miss Twistees Remember kids need to have fun while they are doing TKD since I train kids as well, I have to say keep her there long enough to see if she is learning. Observe, take notes and document those times they are playing and not working if it more than 1/3 of the time, then sit down and talk to the instructor about the stituation and then make a decisssion. Best of luck Terry Lee Stoker

 

[TigerWoman]

I don't really think TKD is considered cheap daycare. I had my kids in daycare for a couple of years in MN. It was really regulated, cost a fortune, nearly 700 for one month. But as they got older, put them in the after-school program which was less than half but only for an hour. Now our TKD classes are 30 minutes for the 5 year olds and 45 for older. These kids don't get there by themselves and to have to drive twice to the same place to drop off and pickup is alot of extra work at the end of the work day. So I usually stayed and watched. Didn't do it for the daycare aspect, didn't want my kids in daycare anyway but what to do if you got to work. I wanted my kids to get all the elements of a martial art just like Miss Twisties. And for those that want to call all TKD, daycare, without understanding that kids need to taught at their age level is a disservice to you as a practicioner of an art as well. If tag team teaches kicking and furthers skills down the line, I think I might teach that. Great idea! For the youngest age group, teaching has to be inventive, ever-changing, and fun for the most part for kids to want to come back. Keeping them in at this stage is difficult for parents and teachers but the good teachers who know how to work with the young ones should be congratulated for their patience and wisdom. (not me-right now) Because they are growing a seed into a flower maybe a bad analogy for the MA but essentially that's it. Besides the ability to defend themselves and the physical ability, the mental aspects of the "way" are what are the most valuable in life. What we parents already try to instill in our children, is reinforced by martial arts. Our school teaches discipline, self control, patience, perseverance, indomitable spirit, courtesy, respect to parents, teachers and other students and humility. I have seen all that grow in my children, now adults as of Saturday, and am grateful that they got into TKD as kids. I'm not saying all TKD is like that, probably not all Hapkido, Judo or any other art either. But please don't discount those that can teach small children and those that can and do benefit from it. TW

 

[DuneViking]

I don't see how you can call that "cheap" daycare in any way. That is almost insulting if you ask me, probably because I am a family daycare provider myself, and paying $85/month for roughly 4 hours of classes A MONTH ($21.25 for each half an hour...) is not considered cheap to me. We have to cut elsewhere to be able to send her there, along with our oldest going to soccer.

I get paid $3.00/hour (equals: $27.00 a day/ $135 for a 45 hours week..). And it's not babysitting that I'm doing. I have to follow a curriculum of activities for the kids, prepare meals and snacks, pay for special additional training/CPR/First Aid/equipment/food/bills/renovation or improvements of the house, etc.

I can say one thing for sure; If after a few weeks/months that my daughter is in this TKD school and I don't see any type of real TKD training, and if it's mostly just "fun and running around", she will probably be out of there. I didn't send her to the playground, I sent her to TKD school. It's ok to have fun at her age, yes, as long as she is also learning the TKD techniques.

yumpin yimminy! 4 hours a month!!?? we felt guilty about upping it to $30, and that's 4 hours a week, min. We allow anyone who is a member of our association schools to go to any of our classes, and locally that's 2 on tuesday, one on Wednesday, 2 out of 3 on Thursday (2 different locations) and 2 on Saturday, so the opportunity exists for 7 classes or over 14 hours per week from 3 different instructors, including our founder's class! Obviously we are not into making money like we are into sharing TKD training. :viking3:

 

[Han-Mi]

Karate is the easy word for martial arts. It's a marketing thing...... Kinda lazy, but that's that

 

[DuneViking]

Very well put Dune Viking.I'll give you a point.

c’aam sa omni da :asian:

 

[MissTwisties]

yup, 4 hours a month for now. She is going only half an hour, 2 times a week. So one hour each week, that about 4 hours a month. After a full month of going, they say she can be part of their "black belt club", and she would go 45 minutes, twice a week. Which would make it to 6 hours a month...

yumpin yimminy! 4 hours a month!!?? we felt guilty about upping it to $30, and that's 4 hours a week, min. We allow anyone who is a member of our association schools to go to any of our classes, and locally that's 2 on tuesday, one on Wednesday, 2 out of 3 on Thursday (2 different locations) and 2 on Saturday, so the opportunity exists for 7 classes or over 14 hours per week from 3 different instructors, including our founder's class! Obviously we are not into making money like we are into sharing TKD training. :viking3: