1960's 9 Gwan/Kwan/Gyms united to create Taekwondo in relation to Pasa-Gwonbeop & Karate

[Dirty Dog]

Well yeah. The direct interpretation is that, if someone teaches an art called Gwonbeop, then he learned an art called Gwonbeop to teach what he had learned.

Oyama didn't teach kwonbop. He taught Karate. Or is he another party to your Grand Conspiracy?

Let's look at the books he wrote. Nope, no mention of kwonbop in any of them. What did he call his art? Nope, no mention of kwonbop there, either.

So what, in your fevered little mind, would lead to him lying about his training?

 

[Steven Lee]

First of all, Byungin Yoon taught Gwonbeop. I said Oyama probably learned Korean Gwonbeop cause he was given 1st Dan when he was in middle school. Even if Oyama didn't learn Korean martial arts, Oyama could have still seen Korean moves including rotating shoulder for punching.

Second of all, what's being said about Taekwondo founders are not directly from the founders speaking but from other people speaking about the founders. Also, Taekwondo topic is over. It's a mix of Gwonbeop (whatever Gwonbeop is) & Karate. Taekwondo topic is over.

Trying to talk about Tameshiwari's founders or Taekwondo's founders? Taekwondo topic was long over.

 

[Dirty Dog]

First of all, Byungin Yoon taught Gwonbeop.

No, he did not. He named his gym after a historical art to appeal to Koreans. He taught Kung fu, since that's what he trained in.

I said Oyama probably learned Korean Gwonbeop cause he was given 1st Dan when he was in middle school. Even if Oyama didn't learn Korean martial arts, Oyama could have still seen Korean moves including rotating shoulder for punching.

The art of kwonbop no longer existed when Oyama trained. Nor did kwonbop have Dan ranks, since, after all, Dan ranks in the martial arts were instituted by Kano long after Kwonbop faded away into obscurity. Or are you now going to claim that Kano stole Dan ranks from Korea?
Mass Oyama trained in Kempo and Judo. There is no sane reason to believe he (or any of the other founders) lied about their training. Some may well have exaggerated it to some degree (a practice that continues today) but to lie about what their root training was? Preposterous.

Second of all, what's being said about Taekwondo founders are not directly from the founders speaking but from other people speaking about the founders. Also, Taekwondo topic is over. It's a mix of Gwonbeop (whatever Gwonbeop is) & Karate. Taekwondo topic is over.

Whatever kwonbop is? Kwonbop is nothing other than a few historical references. Nothing remains of the actual training. TKD, according to the people who founded it, is based primarily off Shotokan, with some Kunug Fu and Judo influence.

 

[JR 137]

@Dirty Dog
Good call with him going to claim Kano stole dan ranks from Korea. It’ll happen. If not outright stolen, we’ll get Korea had them first in one way or another.

 

[Steven Lee]

1. There's no evidence that Byungin Yoon taught Kung Fu. Byungin Yoon was recorded to have taught an art called Gwonbeop. It's more likely to be Korean Gwonbeop since he only called it Gwonbeop.

2. Actually, Mas Oyama testified in his book "1 million's Karate" that Korean Gwonbeop existed even in that era. I quoted a news article on Oyama's book talking about Korean Gwonbeop (Chosun-Gwonbeop by Oyama).

3. Muyedobotongji Gwonbeop was recorded 300 years ago; it was taught in the Korean military as a regular training. Yeah, I said Taekwondo is mixed with Karate. It's also true that of the 9 gyms in the 1960's that joined to be Taekwondo, Gwonbeop gyms existed.

4. Some Korean frauds selling Japanese sports while pretending to be not Japanese sports are irrelevant to my works. My actual works are properly referenced hard facts. I'm correct in all topics I covered with references; those sports I talked about are indeed traditional Korean sports including Breaking/Tameshiwari. Korea had them before Japan.

 

[CB Jones]

The History of the Korean Martial Arts - Scott Shaw

From link

The evolution of Yun Moon Kwan began in 1931 when, Lee, Kyung Suk, a Korean national who taught Japanese Judo, established the Chosun Yun Moo Kwan school in Seoul. Post World War II, Lee, Kyung Suk asked Chun, Sang Sup to set up a course of Kwon Bop at his school. Kwon Bop is the Korean name for Japanese Karate. This program was named, Chosun Yun Moo Kwan Kwon Bup Bu.

Chun, Sang Sup began his martial arts training in Judo while in high school. He then relocated to Japan to attend, Dong Yang Chuck Sik College. It is during this period that he was exposed to Shotokan Karate and is believed to have earned the Black Belt.

Upon retuning to Korea, Chun, Sang Sup is understood to have secretly taught Shotokan Karate to private students — beginning in approximately 1940. This is how the owner of the Chosun Yun Moo Kwan was aware of Chun. As this practiced was outlawed by the Japanese occupying forces, his teaching was not formally recorded until he established his training method at the end of World War II.

Chun, Sang Sup enlisted the help of Yoon, Byung In to teach at Chosun Yun Moo Kwan. Yoon was a 4th Dan in the Okinawan based system of Shudokan Karate — which was established by Sensei Toyama, Kanken.

Yoon, Byung In taught at the Chosun Yun Moo Kwan for approximately one year before breaking away and forming his own organization, Chang Moo Kwan. Chun, Sang Sup then took over full time teaching responsibilities.

 

[JR 137]

1. There's no evidence that Byungin Yoon taught Kung Fu. Byungin Yoon was recorded to have taught an art called Gwonbeop. It's more likely to be Korean Gwonbeop since he only called it Gwonbeop.

2. Actually, Mas Oyama testified in his book "1 million's Karate" that Korean Gwonbeop existed even in that era. I quoted a news article on Oyama's book talking about Korean Gwonbeop (Chosun-Gwonbeop by Oyama).

3. Muyedobotongji Gwonbeop was recorded 300 years ago; it was taught in the Korean military as a regular training. Yeah, I said Taekwondo is mixed with Karate. It's also true that of the 9 gyms in the 1960's that joined to be Taekwondo, Gwonbeop gyms existed.

4. Some Korean frauds selling Japanese sports while pretending to be not Japanese sports are irrelevant to my works. My actual works are properly referenced hard facts. I'm correct in all topics I covered with references; those sports I talked about are indeed traditional Korean sports including Breaking/Tameshiwari. Korea had them before Japan.

What is this “1 million’s Karate” book by Mas Oyama that you keep referencing? I’ve never heard of it. And I’ve read quite a few Oyama books. I’m not Oyama expert, but this book seems suspect.

 

[Steven Lee]

"Kwon Bop is the Korean name for Japanese Karate." According to who and what? Who says so? That is a lie, and there are proofs. An old textbook called Pasa-Gwonbeop was published by Cheolheui Park when he was young. That included Gwonbeop Hyungs, which looked different from Karate.

Also, any Korean can testify that Karate was called Tote/Tangsoo or Karate/Kongsu. Using the name Gwonbeop for Karate was unprecedented.

 

[Steven Lee]

"1 million's Karate" is a book written by Mas Oyama. Not sure if there's an English version. https://mookas.com/news/9586

"'백만인의 가라테'의 저자 소개를 보면, 그는 9세 경에 권법을 배워 중학 2년에 초단이 되었다고 하고 있어 권법을 배웠다고 할 수 있다. 하지만, 전 세계의 무예를 소개하는 내용에는 조선의 무예를 서술하면서 그 특징으로 박치기와 머리카락(댕기머리?) 치기, 어깨치기 등의 특이한 기법이 있었다고 하며 발을 사용하는 소년과 선비의 대결 모습을 그림으로 표현하면서, ‘조선권법’이라고 기재하고 있어, 권법이 특정 무예를 가리키는 것은 아니었던 것으로 짐작된다."

He described that Chosun-Gwonbeop existed even back then.

 

[Dirty Dog]

1. There's no evidence that Byungin Yoon taught Kung Fu.

Well, other than that he SAID it was what he was trained in.

Byungin Yoon was recorded to have taught an art called Gwonbeop. It's more likely to be Korean Gwonbeop since he only called it Gwonbeop.

Well, no, since he said he was trained in kung fu, it was more likely to BE Kung Fu, and that he merely named his gym after what was, by then, nothing more than a legend.

I'm delusional in all topics I covered with references;

I've edited your post to be more accurate. The correction is bolded.

 

[Steven Lee]

1. He could have also learned swimming. Also, just because Byungin Yoon didn't talk about learning Gwonbeop doesn't mean he didn't learn Gwonbeop.

2. Byungin Yoon showed many different Hyungs in South Korea. It is assumed that he trained in many different martial arts including different Kung Fu styles. Byungin Yoon probably learned Korean Gwonbeop. But if he didn't, the next logical thing would be that he learned Chinese Quan Fa. Quan Fa is pronounced Gwonbeop in Korean.

3. What other conclusions are possible from my references? Tell me what conclusions are acceptable for you without ignoring my referenced facts. Also, why are those conclusions acceptable for you?

 

[Xue Sheng]

1. He could have also learned swimming. Also, just because Byungin Yoon didn't talk about learning Gwonbeop doesn't mean he didn't learn Gwonbeop.

It also does not mean he did. Nor should it be surprising to anyone that his lack of reference to it would cast doubt on your statement that he did

 

[CB Jones]

1. He could have also learned swimming. Also, just because Byungin Yoon didn't talk about learning Gwonbeop doesn't mean he didn't learn Gwonbeop.

2. Byungin Yoon showed many different Hyungs in South Korea. It is assumed that he trained in many different martial arts including different Kung Fu styles. Byungin Yoon probably learned Korean Gwonbeop. But if he didn't, the next logical thing would be that he learned Chinese Quan Fa. Quan Fa is pronounced Gwonbeop in Korean.

3. What other conclusions are possible from my references? Tell me what conclusions are acceptable for you without ignoring my referenced facts. Also, why are those conclusions acceptable for you?

Seeing that the only two arts he ever admitted to training was Chinese kung fu or Japanese karate....it makes sense that he created his on style called gwonbeop and just recycled the name

 

[Dirty Dog]

1. He could have also learned swimming. Also, just because Byungin Yoon didn't talk about learning Gwonbeop doesn't mean he didn't learn Gwonbeop.

He said he studied Kung Fu and (to a lesser extent) Karate. If he had studied kwonbop (which didn't exist any more) he would reasonably have said so.

By what passes for logic in your mind, we might as well assume he also studied Sinanju. Because he didn't mention it, either.

Byungin Yoon showed many different Hyungs in South Korea. It is assumed that he trained in many different martial arts including different Kung Fu styles.

It's not an assumption. He said he trained in Kung Fu and Karate.

Byungin Yoon probably learned Korean Gwonbeop.

Nope. It was purely legend by that time.

But if he didn't, the next logical thing would be that he learned Chinese Quan Fa. Quan Fa is pronounced Gwonbeop in Korean.

Sure, which has nothing whatsoever to do with the actual historical art of kwonbop. That's Kung Fu. You know... a Chinese art.

What other conclusions are possible from my references? Tell me what conclusions are acceptable for you without ignoring my referenced facts. Also, why are those conclusions acceptable for you?

Well, we can conclude that you're more than a little ridiculous.
Because that fits the posted evidence.

 

[Steven Lee]

That's possible. Or, he learned Gwonbeop. There were a lot of Koreans living in Manchuria at the time. Even today, Korean is the third largest ethnicity in China. (I'm told.) I'm saying Byungin Yoon teaching Gwonbeop is an indirect proof that Byungin Yoon learned Gwonbeop. But it's possible that Byungin Yoon learned Quan Fa and then taught Quan Fa with Korean pronunciation Gwonbeop. Either way, he taught something different from Karate, which contributed to Taekwondo's earliest 9 gyms in 1960's.

 

[Steven Lee]

Byungin Yoon was not making an autobiography. Even if he learned Gwonbeop, he might not have necessarily said so. I really don't care about Taekwondo. Let's just say that Byungin Yoon learned Quan Fa then taught Quan Fa under the Korean pronunciation Gwonbeop. Byungin Yoon taught Kung Fu with or without Karate influences. This Kung Fu mixed with Karate then became Taekwondo.

What legend? Gwonbeop existed in Korea even 100 years ago. Mas Oyama testified to that in his Karate book "1 million people's Karate". https://mookas.com/news/9586

Korean has had many other martial arts anyway including Sibak & Taekkyeon. Not to mention how Korean Breaking/Tameshiari has nothing to do with Taekwondo; it is from Charyuk/Kihapsul. Also, many martial arts in Korea traditionally have cross-trained Breaking/Tameshiwari including North Korean Gyuksul.

 

[Dirty Dog]

That's possible. Or, he learned Gwonbeop.

Not possible. Kwonbop, as a Korean art, was long gone by then.

I'm saying Byungin Yoon teaching Gwonbeop

He did not. His SCHOOL was named Kwonbop. Not his art. GM HWANG, Kee named his gym Moo Duk Kwan. He did not teach Moo Duk Kwan. He taught Tang Soo Do. Then Tae Kwon Do. Then Tang Soo Do. Then Soo Bahk Do. And, like naming a gym Kwonbop, re-naming his art Soo Bahk Do didn't mean it had any direct connection to Soo Bahk.

is an indirect proof that Byungin Yoon learned Gwonbeop. But it's possible that Byungin Yoon learned Quan Fa and then taught Quan Fa with Korean pronunciation Gwonbeop. Either way, he taught something different from Karate, which contributed to Taekwondo's earliest 9 gyms in 1960's.

So are you admitting that your claim that he taught Kwonbop (the Korean art) is nonsense, and that he actually taught (as he said) a Chinese art?

And nobody has contested that Kung Fu was a part of the development of TKD. It's been explicitly stated by me, and others, that it WAS a part. A very small part. Speaking as someone with 50 years of TKD experience, and Dan ranks in three different varieties of TKD, and with direct contact with someone who was THERE when TKD formed, I can say that the influence of Kung Fu on TKD was very minimal, and as TKD has evolved, it's done so in a way that has resulted in it becoming even closer to Karate and lessened the influence of Kung FU.

You've never said... what is YOUR actual martial arts training background? What Korean arts have you studied? Under whom? To what rank?

 

[Steven Lee]

"Not possible. Kwonbop, as a Korean art, was long gone by then."

According to Mas Oyama, Gwonbeop existed even then. Also, Muyedobotongji textbook was used by Korean military as a regular training curriculum. This included Gwonbeop.

According to Cheolheui Park, both his school and his art were named Gwonbeop. Also, Yoon was nicknamed "18ki" which means Muyedobotongji. 9 gyms united to start Taekwondo.

No, I still believe Byungin Yoon taught Korean Gwonbeop. But I don't really care even if we pretend he taught Chinese Quan Fa (Gwonbeop) without any proof for such. I don't care pretending that way cause it is a definite possibility and I don't really care about Taekwondo.

I'm not an athlete. I'm an amateur historian. Consider me a history nerd, not an athlete. But I can break a 0.5cm thick pebble with hand strike. Also, being trained in martial art doesn't mean being trained in history. Whatever wishful history you make up and talk out of ***, it's irrelevant.

 

[Dirty Dog]

"Not possible. Kwonbop, as a Korean art, was long gone by then."

Learn how to quote properly. It's not in the least bit difficult.

Also, Muyedobotongji textbook was used by Korean military as a regular training curriculum. This included Gwonbeop.

Nonsense. I've got a copy. There's no way anyone rational would claim you could learn anything of significance from that book.

No, I still believe Byungin Yoon taught Korean Gwonbeop.

You believe a lot of silly nonsense, that much is clear.

But I don't really care even if we pretend he taught Chinese Quan Fa (Gwonbeop) without any proof for such.

Well, other than the fact that he SAID that is what he taught.

 

[Steven Lee]

Pedantic and nitpicking and quibbling.

Korean Gwonbeop was not extinct 100 years ago. Also, I don't care if Byungin Yoon taught Chinese Quan Fa (Gwonbeop). It's a definite possibility. I accept it although my main belief is that he learned and taught Korean Gwonbeop. But Taekwondo topic is over. He taught Quan Fa. Over.

Oyama taught a Korean hand strike to Karate cause Karate didn't have it before, Karate had it after, Korean had it before. Breaking/Tameshiawri was well known by Korean Kiaijutsu/Kihapsul; Japan became aware of this; Korean always has had Breaking. What other conclusions are possible in this situation?