Really cool video thank for sharing!
What are some differences between Karate and Taekwondo?
- Thread starter NinjaChristian
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Earl Weiss
Senior Master
You tube caption says filmed late 1950's or early 1960's . Uses terminology and methodology from the 1965 Book which the author explicitly states had numerous errors but the need to get a book out trumped the need for perfection.
Much was refined by the time the 1972 Book came out in English, earlier in Korean, and as was often the case the pioneers could be seen using many habits from their Kwan which filtered through to the new system .
Note that my time line referenced the early 1970's so this video really has no bearing on the time line. The Shorin and Shorei roots are undeniable except to those using the "Straw man" logical fallacy claiming that they are denied.
Much was refined by the time the 1972 Book came out in English, earlier in Korean, and as was often the case the pioneers could be seen using many habits from their Kwan which filtered through to the new system .
Note that my time line referenced the early 1970's so this video really has no bearing on the time line. The Shorin and Shorei roots are undeniable except to those using the "Straw man" logical fallacy claiming that they are denied.
I already adressed that and will do so again. 1972 is a good 9 years after the Chang Hon patterns were completed (1963) and the original system was being promoted. I linked to a promotional video with no knee spring/Sine Wave of any sorts. There is no escaping this.
...and you haven't thought about actually answering the OP's question at all? I rather think if he'd wanted an argument about TKD he'd have phrased it in such a way he'd have got one instead he asked for the differences between karate and TKD.
I don't believe the video of the patterns is from the late 50s as the YouTube user estimated. There are 21 patterns displayed. If it that video was the late 50s, it would have to entail that it took Choi several years for the last three patterns to be formed, which I don't buy. So my best bet is that the video is somewhere between 1960-1963.
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NinjaChristian
Green Belt
I am so confused... Does any of what's being talked about have anything to do with the topic? It seems it turned into an argument about what styles of karate actually went into taekwondo. Thank you for you efforts to return the thread to the topic.
By the way, I just learned the "knee kick" is in taekwondo(the one that is thrown like a push kick, except the foot never comes out). Also, another knee strike that is in taekwondo is the "turning knee kick"(made up that term, not sure what it is called) it's thrown like a round kick, but the tool is the knee. I saw it in general Choi's encyclopedia; not sure if my school teaches it though.
Does wado have sticky hands or something similar? I don't think TKD has it, and if it does it is very limited.
Just about any kick you can think of is in taekwondo, the only one I have never seen is a certain kung fu kick (tai chi?) that comes off the back leg with the toes pointing outward.
looks like this, but I have seen it thrown higher. makes a nasty check for a round house.
Jaeimseu
3rd Black Belt
In my opinion, if a technique involves striking a target with the arms or legs, it's in Taekwondo. It may not be in the poomse/tul, but it's part of Taekwondo.
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
It doesn't need to be escaped because it's wrong. 1965 book only had 20 of the 24 patterns. So, 20% of the patterns were not completed (at least not circulated in any meaningful manner until the 1972 Book was available.)
Video clearly uses 1965 Book Material - Not 1972 Book and later.
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Earl Weiss
Senior Master
I see, you cite a source then denounce it as inaccurate using only the parts you like to support your argument and rejecting the rest. . Since the 1965 Book only contains 20 patterns with the last 4 appearing in the 1972 Book it seems more than logical that the last were completed after this video during whatever time line. In addittion to more patterns there were many refinements in terminology and technical parameters during this time.
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
FWIW there are both "Front Kick with Knee" and "Turning Kick with Knee" In General Choi's system.
Tough to tell from photo, but could be similar to "Inward Side pressing kick " used to attack the knee joint.
"Grandmaster Choi had completed Tong Il, the final Pattern of the original 24 Tul by 1963"
http://www.itkd.co.nz/reference/essays/6-pattern-history.pdf
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NinjaChristian
Green Belt
just curious... what exactly are you guys arguing about?
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NinjaChristian
Green Belt
I have the condensed version of the encyclopedia. I think that the "front kick with knee" was left out of it. same thing for the foot placement in the forms. Sad, because i was hoping it would have that. You get what you pay for I guess...
That the original TaeKwon-Do system from General Choi was promoted without Knee Spring/Sinewave. It was Shotokan repackaged.
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NinjaChristian
Green Belt
I don't know about the knee spring, but my instructor said that sine wave actually is in karate(I forget which style) under the name "compression". He said that the "sine wave" is more pronounced in TKD than in karate, but karate does have it.
I've not come across it but that means little lol. I also don't have any idea what 'sine wave' is or what it's for....that wasn't me asking for an explanation lol. I find differences between styles very interesting but definitely not worth arguing over.
Sine wave is an ITF-ish thing. It's moving the body up and down during techniques in poomsae and is supposed to generate more power. It was not a part of my earliest training, but it was certainly in use in the schools I attended by the mid- late-70's. I remain unconvinced that it actually does develop more power in the strikes, but if it's part of the standards for a given school, then students should certainly work on it.
Perhaps it does make tons more power for some. I'm just not one of them.
Ah, I see. Moving up and down was very definitely discouraged in my karate classes, the instructor would complain if anyone looked as if they weren't moving steadily as he called it, as it made him seasick! We were told to keep on the level if you know what I mean. I think beginners tend to bob up and down, I know that when doing some stances for the first few times they tend to have their feet in line with each other which made them very unstable and likely to bob up and down. We'd be told that when you walk it's on two parallel lines not one foot exactly in front of another so it's the same with front, back, cat stance etc.
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