What are all of the reasons you bring your fist back to your hip in Karate/Taekwondo/etc forms?

[Alan0354]

Are we all kind of making that up though?

It's just physics, just an example, say the guy on the horse is going 20mph, the guy weight 150lbs. You try to pull the guy off the horse when you are standing still. Think of trying to stop 150lbs travel 20mph away from you and you manage to pull him to a DEAD STOP with distance of less than a few feet travel. What kind of force you have to assert by your grip? Remember the law of physics. Calculate the force it takes.

The guy might fall off the horse, so is your spear that got pull off your hands. You lost your weapon. When the next guy on the horse comes, you are chopped meat!!!!

As a Chinese grew up in Hong Kong, do NOT trust too much what you hear.

 

[wab25]

Just COMMON SENSE!!! You serious think your grip is strong enough to pull the guy on a horse?

Halberd Weapon

Medieval Weapons; Halberd; Halberd Weapon; Medieval Halberd Pole-Arm. Medieval Halberd Weapon Pictures, History, Images & Information

www.medievalchronicles.com

I know you won't read the article... so let me quote some of it here:

Halberds had a number of advantages. Firstly, the length of the shaft allowed the axe mounted on it to be wielded with such strength that its blade could pierce metal, even the armor of the knights in many cases. The hook behind the axe was particularly effective when facing a charge of horseback attackers. In such a charge, the pike could be used to pierce and wound the enemy riders and the hook was effective in pulling them down from their horses.

How effective was such a weapon?

The halberd was a type of pole-arm weapon which was invented by Swiss soldiers in the 14th century. The weapon was innovative for its age, effective, and particularly cheap to produce. It combined an axe, a hook, and a pike at one end of a long wooden shaft that was wielded by the soldier.

Given its versatility, the halberd was a very effective weapon in the hands of someone who could use it with speed and accuracy. The use of the weapon spread from Swiss soldiers to German soldiers and eventually to other parts of Europe by the 16th century.

This weapon was used for 200 years and spread to many different parts of Europe. Weapons that are not effective, don't get used for 200 years and don't spread to other countries. For those 200 years, they were used to pull riders down off horses... even if one guy, living now, who never trained with one, does not think he can do it.

further references:

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/25898

The head of this halberd incorporates three basic elements: an axe-like blade, an apical spike, and a beak. The axe blade, which gives the weapon its name (derived from the German Halm, long shaft, and Barte, axe) was used for hacking, the spike for thrusting, and the beak either for piercing a plate of armor (against which the cutting edge would have been useless), or for pulling a knight from his saddle.

Halberd

A halberd (or Swiss voulge) is a two-handed pole weapon that came to prominent use during the 14th and 15th centuries. Possibly the word "halberd" comes from the German words Halm (staff), and Barte (axe). The halberd consists of an axe blade topped with a spike mounted on a long shaft. It always has a hook or thorn on the back side of the axe blade for grappling mounted combatants.

Poleaxe vs Halberd: Different Polearms Compared - Awesome Axes

A poleaxe is a versatile medieval weapon with a hammer, spike, and axe head mounted on a long shaft. A halberd, also a medieval weapon, combines a spear tip,

www.awesomeaxes.com

Halberds were used to counter both foot soldiers and heavy cavalry alike. The spear tip and curved dagger or hook form, as with the poleaxe, allowed users to pull men off of horses or take them off their feet if on the ground.

 

[KenpoMaster805]

yes we chamber in every katas or when doing the basic so we can strike stronger in the next strike

 

[wab25]

It's just physics, just an example, say the guy on the horse is going 20mph, the guy weight 150lbs. You try to pull the guy off the horse when you are standing still. Think of trying to stop 150lbs travel 20mph away from you and you manage to pull him to a DEAD STOP with distance of less than a few feet travel. What kind of force you have to assert by your grip? Remember the law of physics. Calculate the force it takes.

The guy might fall off the horse, so is your spear that got pull off your hands. You lost your weapon. When the next guy on the horse comes, you are chopped meat!!!!

As a Chinese grew up in Hong Kong, do NOT trust too much what you hear.

Sure... if the rider were riding full speed past you, and you hooked him with polearm... you would lose it. Thats why they did not do that. They used pikes in front of the horse... the horse either impaled on the pikes or slowed to a stop to turn. Once they slowed the rider down to a stop, then they used the hook to pull him off. Sorry that history does not agree with your views.

 

[Alan0354]

Halberd Weapon

Medieval Weapons; Halberd; Halberd Weapon; Medieval Halberd Pole-Arm. Medieval Halberd Weapon Pictures, History, Images & Information

www.medievalchronicles.com

I know you won't read the article... so let me quote some of it here:

How effective was such a weapon?

This weapon was used for 200 years and spread to many different parts of Europe. Weapons that are not effective, don't get used for 200 years and don't spread to other countries. For those 200 years, they were used to pull riders down off horses... even if one guy, living now, who never trained with one, does not think he can do it.

further references:

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/25898

Halberd

Poleaxe vs Halberd: Different Polearms Compared - Awesome Axes

A poleaxe is a versatile medieval weapon with a hammer, spike, and axe head mounted on a long shaft. A halberd, also a medieval weapon, combines a spear tip,

www.awesomeaxes.com

Try doing pull up with spear hook on top first.

If it is team effort, one pull the guy off the horse, your partner do the rest, then it's possible.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Try doing pull up with spear hook on top first.

There is a good reason that a hooking weapon may have a ring that you can put your finger into it.

I have no problem doing pull up if my middle finger is in the loop.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If it is team effort, one pull the guy off the horse, your partner do the rest, then it's possible.

It's team effort.

Similar to spear with hook, Lang Xian 狼筅 is used to catch opponent's weapon so your friend can use spear to kill him.

 

[Damien]

What is your evidence that this was not a deliberate movement with a purpose like grabbing?

Stances in CMA exist because of observation and the inherent affordances of a position; if you want to do x, you must do y. The resulting position was codified and trained.

When you look at stances in terms of affordances rather than fully thought out positions that someone created uses around a lot of things make more sense.

I expect much of early martial arts was like this. We can never know of course, but we can speculate and make links.

Ultimately it doesn't matter. We now have chambering and it can have multiple uses. We can choose to do it or not.

 

[Alan0354]

It's team effort.

Similar to spear with hook, Lang Xian 狼筅 is used to catch opponent's weapon so your friend can use spear to kill him.

Yes, team effort, that will work. one pull down, the other kill and protect. The team should have different weapon, some with hook, the other with arrows and sword. Team effort.

I am talking about the picture of the spear you showed with straight pole and hook. Of cause, if you have ways to hold onto the pole, that would be more realistic. But still pulling people down the horse running, you know science, using Newton 2nd law to find "a" and calculate F=ma and see how much force it takes to pull a person 150lbs down without letting go of the spear.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Chambering from the hip helps them to learn to turn the hips to generate power.

And not just that either, chambering helps engage the core in general, as you can see here (technically Hung Ga from the Lau Kar Leung lineage) . He's about to jump in the air and then beat the hell out of a waterfall with the southern Five Element fist and Crane techniques.

Anybody can try this: jump up in the air with your arms out like a bird, and then try it with your fists tight against your core.

Bringing the hands back to the waist like this in many CMA is basically done for this reason, so "sink the Qi" and engage the core muscles for stability. So it's used at the beginning of fist sets, at the end, and often in between sections as a sort of reset.

And in some styles like Xing Yi, the fists are sometimes inverted.

 

[Oily Dragon]

a strong base..ie strong legs are more important in my opinion.

The strong base part is what is found in all the old CMA.

I can't think of a single CMA that punches from the hip either. Like Bill said this is something taught to beginners to get them to start focusing on their body alignment in Karate/TKD etc, but it's also a standard part of strength and stability training in CMA (I do these exercises with body weights, prancing around with about 20-40lbs extra at my core).

You probably did similar stuff in the military. Packing it in tight. "chin up, chest out, shoulders back, stomach in", etc.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I am talking about the picture of the spear you showed with straight pole and hook. Of cause, if you have ways to hold onto the pole, that would be more realistic.

I believe all long weapon will have a handler at the end of the holding spot. I'm sure it can be attached on the hook spear if needed.

Ancient Chinese were not as stupid as you may think. The issue that you expresse had been considered by people in the ancient time already.

 

[Alan0354]

In battle field, which weapon do you prefer to use? Do you prefer a spear?

View attachment 28967

or a spear with a hook on it?

IMO, a spear with a hook on it can control your opponent's weapon much better.

View attachment 28966

NOT the one you show.

 

[Alan0354]

I believe all long weapon will have a handler at the end of the holding spot. I'm sure it can be attached on the hook spear if needed.

Ancient Chinese were not as stupid as you may think. The issue that you expresse had been considered by people in the ancient time already.

View attachment 28980

Not the one you showed.

I don't know about that. There are so so much BS in China you don't know what to believe. All the lies, bragging and fake stuff. I am glad there are people to challenge those old tradition stuff and they are very successful. All the excuses...........That the art was lost already. SURE!!! Just like they claimed their spiritual boxing can survive knives and arrows and all too!!!

To me, PROOF. It is sad being a Chinese seeing our MA being DESTROYED in the modern days and resort to excuses and bad mouthing........Too many rules...............It's not street fight............Too deadly to show to the world................


BTW, I never saw a big knife with all the notches in the middle. I am not ignorant in history, saw a lot of drawing of those. They are had smooth rod body. You cannot have notches like this. If you look at those forms, they slide their hands on the entire length, you cannot have notches and do those.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There are so so much BS in China you don't know what to believe. All the lies, bragging and fake stuff. I am glad there are people to challenge those old tradition stuff and they are very successful.

When I read your post, I can see myself in it.

If someone said that he is good in MA, I would say, "try me". I have always believed that MA training is just as simple as "fist meet face". Self defense to me is to force my opponent to defend himself.

Today, I want my MA training to help me to live to 100 (my long fist teacher is 96 today).

 

[Alan0354]

When I read your post, I can see myself in it.

If someone said that he is good in MA, I would say, "try me". I have always believed that MA training is just as simple as "fist meet face". Self defense to me is to force my opponent to defend himself.

Today, I want my MA training to help me to live to 100 (my long fist teacher is 96 today).

View attachment 28982

Don't follow exactly what you are talking.

I said it many times before, MA is an art of kicking butt, or else, why everything is about attacking the opponent? be it with fist, palm, legs............ It's hypocritical to say otherwise. Anyone want to be artistic and pretty, go learn ballet!!!

There are simpler and better ways to achieve the same goal. The best way to go from point A to B is the straight line. But some take a scenic route that is longer. Worst is they get lost in the scenic route and going nowhere.

 

[isshinryuronin]

There are so so much BS in China you don't know what to believe. All the lies, bragging and fake stuff. I am glad there are people to challenge those old tradition stuff and they are very successful.

There is BS, bragging and fake stuff everywhere and in many styles and many areas of life. There are quacks in all professions. That does not mean everything is exaggerated or fake. For centuries, Western medicine held Chinese medicine, herbal remedies, and acupuncture in contempt, but for the past few decades has discovered TCM has some real value. Ancient tribal medicine used by jungle shamans have led to many modern medical advances.

"Old" and "traditional" does not in itself make something ineffective or false. To discard all traditional things for this reason is a major breakdown in logic and biased. One must be knowledgeable and experienced in the art to be able to make value judgements of this sort. It's OK to challenge, but this must be done objectively and with understanding. Lacking this leads to false conclusions and misinterpretation of what we're looking at.

 

[Alan0354]

There is BS, bragging and fake stuff everywhere and in many styles and many areas of life. There are quacks in all professions. That does not mean everything is exaggerated or fake. For centuries, Western medicine held Chinese medicine, herbal remedies, and acupuncture in contempt, but for the past few decades has discovered TCM has some real value. Ancient tribal medicine used by jungle shamans have led to many modern medical advances.

"Old" and "traditional" does not in itself make something ineffective or false. To discard all traditional things for this reason is a major breakdown in logic and biased. One must be knowledgeable and experienced in the art to be able to make value judgements of this sort. It's OK to challenge, but this must be done objectively and with understanding. Lacking this leads to false conclusions and misinterpretation of what we're looking at.

I believe in Chinese medicine to a certain extend, never question about that. They never brag they are better anyway. In the late 70s, I came down with Hepatitis, when to a normal doctor, they took blood test to verify, but just told me to stay in bed. I went to see a chinese doctor and drank their medication. I was up and about in less than a week. I know particular in cases when western medicine doesn't work, go to Chinese medication. So is Acupuncture.

CMA is very different, I don't mix other Chinese stuffs with CMA. There are things I am proud of Chinese, science, education, rising from being destroyed 100 years ago to the second most powerful and rich country. There are a lot of things China should be proud of...........NOT CMA. Believe me, I heard enough BS for my whole life time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I only watch him fighting in the Octagon, too many BS reading stuffs.

So not interested in information that might mean changing your thoughts on something.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's just physics, just an example, say the guy on the horse is going 20mph, the guy weight 150lbs. You try to pull the guy off the horse when you are standing still. Think of trying to stop 150lbs travel 20mph away from you and you manage to pull him to a DEAD STOP with distance of less than a few feet travel. What kind of force you have to assert by your grip? Remember the law of physics. Calculate the force it takes.

The guy might fall off the horse, so is your spear that got pull off your hands. You lost your weapon. When the next guy on the horse comes, you are chopped meat!!!!

As a Chinese grew up in Hong Kong, do NOT trust too much what you hear.

It’s not that simple. With the right approach, I can pull a 250-lb man off his feet while he’s running without being knocked down (and I’m much lighter). It’s not a direct-line thing where you’re opposing the full force of a moving man. Getting him off-balance is all that’s necessary- he can fall off somewhere else, and you still did your job.