Creating your own custom martial arts.

[Gerry Seymour]

Just tossing out there that "MMA _______ is quite different from ______" unsupported doesn't help me to understand your point. In your mind, How is MMA boxing different from regular, Western boxing? The MMA "boxing coaches" used to be just regular, old, western boxing coaches. Same thing for MMA grappling vs., say, BJJ grappling. Shoot, the techniques are direct quotes most of the time.


I agree with what you said about how most arts/styles are amalgams or combinations of other styles, I get that and it's a good point. And I also get that it's way easier to call what the typical MMA practitioner does by the acronym MMA, rather than coming up with something that attempts to explain it all, jukafuyingshudojutsuwa or whatever.

I have problem with seeing it as its own "distinct" thing, as the only thing that is distinct and... maybe as you pointed out, separable, is the mixing-up of other techniques into a cohesive whole.


Jumping off of what Gerry wrote above.... this type of nomenclature war makes my head hurt because I can't understand it. And understand, in no way is this a comment on the efficacy or lack thereof of MMA. MMA works. Use your strength against the others weakness, basic tactics made into a system. It works and I like it. Names & labels are a problem. Does it truly make a huge difference if Bill Bigfist calls himself a MMA-ist or it's intrinsic in his history? To me it doesn't, but I'm not Bill Bigfist either.

I actually think you hit on what I was getting at in your 2nd and 4th paragraphs. Calling it "MMA" is a useful shorthand, which is all I really see most names as - they give us a little bit of information in as few syllables as possible. And as long as whatever name is being used works, it makes sense to use it. And that's how I kinda view any question about whether something is a separate "thing" or not in MA: does using the name for it as a separate thing tell us some useful information?

 

[JP3]

I actually think you hit on what I was getting at in your 2nd and 4th paragraphs. Calling it "MMA" is a useful shorthand, which is all I really see most names as - they give us a little bit of information in as few syllables as possible. And as long as whatever name is being used works, it makes sense to use it. And that's how I kinda view any question about whether something is a separate "thing" or not in MA: does using the name for it as a separate thing tell us some useful information?

I don't think I've ever used the "Useful" button before, but that one qualifies.

We could look at this way, does the name/label MMA serve a purpose, of course. Does it serve Its purpose of being a descriptive name/label so as to let someone know what it is you're talking about in as little time as possible, it does that, too.

Martial D & I may disagree conceptually on the use of the word "distinct," but I can understand how MMA could be viewed as different, just because the rules structure (if you're using rules) is so wide-open as compared with other types of contact/combat competition things.

Boxing is boxing... or is it? Is the manner and method of boxing going to change if/when you change the rules to include *GASP* that the other guy can, if he can, kick you in the face while you're doing your best to pound his with your hand? We can all agree I think that hand-boxing an opponent is a different experience than boxing someone and both peeps can use their feet, too in one way or another.

 

[_Simon_]

Just tossing out there that "MMA _______ is quite different from ______" unsupported doesn't help me to understand your point. In your mind, How is MMA boxing different from regular, Western boxing? The MMA "boxing coaches" used to be just regular, old, western boxing coaches. Same thing for MMA grappling vs., say, BJJ grappling. Shoot, the techniques are direct quotes most of the time.


I agree with what you said about how most arts/styles are amalgams or combinations of other styles, I get that and it's a good point. And I also get that it's way easier to call what the typical MMA practitioner does by the acronym MMA, rather than coming up with something that attempts to explain it all, jukafuyingshudojutsuwa or whatever.

I have problem with seeing it as its own "distinct" thing, as the only thing that is distinct and... maybe as you pointed out, separable, is the mixing-up of other techniques into a cohesive whole.


Jumping off of what Gerry wrote above.... this type of nomenclature war makes my head hurt because I can't understand it. And understand, in no way is this a comment on the efficacy or lack thereof of MMA. MMA works. Use your strength against the others weakness, basic tactics made into a system. It works and I like it. Names & labels are a problem. Does it truly make a huge difference if Bill Bigfist calls himself a MMA-ist or it's intrinsic in his history? To me it doesn't, but I'm not Bill Bigfist either.

I think what Martial D might be alluding to (and I may be wrong and don't wanna speak for him or assume!), is that MMA boxing etc is different from the stand-alone art because you have different things to worry about and take into account.

In boxing, you've got in mind that the opponent is trying to punch you. In MMA boxing, you're super aware that not only that, but that he can kick you, or try a single-leg takedown, so you're considering how to position yourself to avoid or counter that, and your footwork, movement, range and body posture/positioning is going to reflect that. So you've got more to consider, and your approach and what you're being taught will vary quite a bit.

Same with MMA grappling, it will differ from normal wrestling/grappling as when clinched up the opponent can now potentially knee you in the face, or throw an uppercut! So you'll change how you clinch up to keep that into account.

Groundwork now has the element of being cautious of being pounded too, so you have to train for keeping them closer to you whilst they're on top.

Just some thoughts!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think what Martial D might be alluding to (and I may be wrong and don't wanna speak for him or assume!), is that MMA boxing etc is different from the stand-alone art because you have different things to worry about and take into account.

In boxing, you've got in mind that the opponent is trying to punch you. In MMA boxing, you're super aware that not only that, but that he can kick you, or try a single-leg takedown, so you're considering how to position yourself to avoid or counter that, and your footwork, movement, range and body posture/positioning is going to reflect that. So you've got more to consider, and your approach and what you're being taught will vary quite a bit.

Same with MMA grappling, it will differ from normal wrestling/grappling as when clinched up the opponent can now potentially knee you in the face, or throw an uppercut! So you'll change how you clinch up to keep that into account.

Groundwork now has the element of being cautious of being pounded too, so you have to train for keeping them closer to you whilst they're on top.

Just some thoughts!

And that often changes the strategy, entirely. Ground grappling (really, all grappling) can be very patient when there are no strikes. You can get a small amount of control and work slowly to the next control point until you get the throw/takedown/submission you want. Put strikes in there, and some transitions get faster, and you have to spend more attention on defense at certain points, rather than just on moving to the next control.

 

[Martial D]

Just tossing out there that "MMA _______ is quite different from ______" unsupported doesn't help me to understand your point. In your mind, How is MMA boxing different from regular, Western boxing? The MMA "boxing coaches" used to be just regular, old, western boxing coaches. Same thing for MMA grappling vs., say, BJJ grappling. Shoot, the techniques are direct quotes most of the time.


I agree with what you said about how most arts/styles are amalgams or combinations of other styles, I get that and it's a good point. And I also get that it's way easier to call what the typical MMA practitioner does by the acronym MMA, rather than coming up with something that attempts to explain it all, jukafuyingshudojutsuwa or whatever.

I have problem with seeing it as its own "distinct" thing, as the only thing that is distinct and... maybe as you pointed out, separable, is the mixing-up of other techniques into a cohesive whole.


Jumping off of what Gerry wrote above.... this type of nomenclature war makes my head hurt because I can't understand it. And understand, in no way is this a comment on the efficacy or lack thereof of MMA. MMA works. Use your strength against the others weakness, basic tactics made into a system. It works and I like it. Names & labels are a problem. Does it truly make a huge difference if Bill Bigfist calls himself a MMA-ist or it's intrinsic in his history? To me it doesn't, but I'm not Bill Bigfist either.

You say you can't tell the difference between boxing and MMA boxing.

I really can't tell the difference between karate and tkd.

Does that make them the same thing, or does that mean I haven't trained in the two enough to know?

 

[JP3]

I think what Martial D might be alluding to (and I may be wrong and don't wanna speak for him or assume!), is that MMA boxing etc is different from the stand-alone art because you have different things to worry about and take into account.

In boxing, you've got in mind that the opponent is trying to punch you. In MMA boxing, you're super aware that not only that, but that he can kick you, or try a single-leg takedown, so you're considering how to position yourself to avoid or counter that, and your footwork, movement, range and body posture/positioning is going to reflect that. So you've got more to consider, and your approach and what you're being taught will vary quite a bit.

Same with MMA grappling, it will differ from normal wrestling/grappling as when clinched up the opponent can now potentially knee you in the face, or throw an uppercut! So you'll change how you clinch up to keep that into account.

Groundwork now has the element of being cautious of being pounded too, so you have to train for keeping them closer to you whilst they're on top.

Just some thoughts!

Well, now I know that what I write isn't understandable, because you said much better above what I was trying to say with this: " Boxing is boxing... or is it? Is the manner and method of boxing going to change if/when you change the rules to include *GASP* that the other guy can, if he can, kick you in the face while you're doing your best to pound his with your hand? We can all agree I think that hand-boxing an opponent is a different experience than boxing someone and both peeps can use their feet, too in one way or another."

That's what I meant. Change the rules, it changes the game, even if the underlying techniques remain direct quotes of the previous method. I totally agree witht hat, as will anyone who has done some cross-paradigm training/fighting/sparring.

 

[JP3]

You say you can't tell the difference between boxing and MMA boxing.

I really can't tell the difference between karate and tkd.

Does that make them the same thing, or does that mean I haven't trained in the two enough to know?

I see what you did there and while it was slick, it's still not answering my question. I... think... Simon may have done that for you, though.

As another matter, as the training... blends" for lack of a better word, trying to tell the difference between on the fly karate technique and TKD techniques can get difficult because bodies only work in certain ways, and people after doing an action for thousands of reps naturally tend to get to the most efficient method of performing an action, i.e. round kicks start out looking different for a TKD vs. a Karate white belt...but after 20 years they mostly look the same.

Well, that is unless a grandmaster is standing around frowning at "the new way we've always done things."

 

[Martial D]

I see what you did there and while it was slick, it's still not answering my question. I... think... Simon may have done that for you, though.

As another matter, as the training... blends" for lack of a better word, trying to tell the difference between on the fly karate technique and TKD techniques can get difficult because bodies only work in certain ways, and people after doing an action for thousands of reps naturally tend to get to the most efficient method of performing an action, i.e. round kicks start out looking different for a TKD vs. a Karate white belt...but after 20 years they mostly look the same.

Well, that is unless a grandmaster is standing around frowning at "the new way we've always done things."

Yes, Simon pretty much nailed it. The activity is different, the ways to be successful are different, hence, the techniques too must be different.

MMA is a young martial art, so it retains a stronger connection to it's parent arts, but less and less so every day.

 

[Christopher Adamchek]

interesting and solid points many of you have said on MMA being is own breed

but even so lacks weapons and real self defense applications

I like to teach my students all of it, to make them the best they can be

 

[drop bear]

Ok. Let's try this. In MMA I will hit you in order to pass your guard.

What style am I using?

 

[JP3]

Yes, Simon pretty much nailed it. The activity is different, the ways to be successful are different, hence, the techniques too must be different.

MMA is a young martial art, so it retains a stronger connection to it's parent arts, but less and less so every day.

That logic presupposes a premis MD. In logic terms you said

"If B is equal to X, and C is equal to X, then A, also, must be equal to X."

It's not the same as saying: "If A then B, and if B then C, so therefore if A then C."

 

[JR 137]

And that often changes the strategy, entirely. Ground grappling (really, all grappling) can be very patient when there are no strikes. You can get a small amount of control and work slowly to the next control point until you get the throw/takedown/submission you want. Put strikes in there, and some transitions get faster, and you have to spend more attention on defense at certain points, rather than just on moving to the next control.

Add a clock, and things typically get sped up too. Think 3 two minute periods in wrestling. No time to hang out, unless of course you’re totally outclassing your opponent.

Why is watching the Kentucky Derby so intense? It’s short. Perhaps the shortest sport there is. Why is watching golf so laidback? Time. Everyone teeing off at the same time to a starter’s pistol going for the same hole the quickest would change things up quite a bit.

 

[Martial D]

That logic presupposes a premis MD. In logic terms you said

"If B is equal to X, and C is equal to X, then A, also, must be equal to X."

It's not the same as saying: "If A then B, and if B then C, so therefore if A then C."

Now you are just being pedantic. Go train MMA, THEN form an educated opinion.

Logical enough?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok. Let's try this. In MMA I will hit you in order to pass your guard.

What style am I using?

Brazillian Thaijitsu.

 

[drop bear]

Brazillian Thaijitsu.

Brazilian Ihitsyou.

 

[_Simon_]

Ok. Let's try this. In MMA I will hit you in order to pass your guard.

What style am I using?

The BEST style!!!

Yes! I win!!!

 

[JP3]

Now you are just being pedantic. Go train MMA, THEN form an educated opinion.

Logical enough?

Now that was just you not paying attention. I have trained MMA, and I hold to my opinion. Taught the judo/groundwork at two while I trained there.

 

[Martial D]

Now that was just you not paying attention. I have trained MMA, and I hold to my opinion. Taught the judo/groundwork at two while I trained there.

That makes it even more confounding that you keep to this position without offering any sort of reasoning or argument as to why.

It seems like you are angling towards 'not a style unless Asian dancing', which is a silly position imo. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Buka]

interesting and solid points many of you have said on MMA being is own breed

but even so lacks weapons and real self defense applications

I like to teach my students all of it, to make them the best they can be

I disagree in part. Although there are no weapons to MMA, in my opinion a person trained in MMA is far better prepared for self defense that most other Arts.

 

[JP3]

That makes it even more confounding that you keep to this position without offering any sort of reasoning or argument as to why.

It seems like you are angling towards 'not a style unless Asian dancing', which is a silly position imo. Maybe I'm wrong.

I'll go with you're wrong, that works for me. Ha! Too easy.


Even if you are right, it makes no true difference. I am most likely not to change my mind, because my opinion has been created by my experience. Likewise, you... yours.

Asian Dancing... reminds me of the joke. Judo is like dancing except the partners knock each other down.

If you want to think of MMA as being it's own unique animal, different from everything else ever created, go for it. I don't agree with you, and you're not going to agree with me. Having trained in MMA gyms, and taught in MMA gyms, I found that, to effectively teach, I had to use teaching tools of breaking down individual movements of techniques, whether that's how to throw an effective jab, work a punch combo, go from a strike exchange into a clinch then to a takedown and transition into groundwork, whatever it was... it all broke down into individual, small components. Those components all, for me, arose out of the underlying training in the various arts I'd practiced over the years. That's how I taught, and it seemed to be effective - the guys/gals got the lesson and went on to effectively use the things I'd taught in practice, matches, and ring fights.


But, for someone who didn't ever come up in any sort of traditional program, I can see how it easily could be different. Maybe it's the weight of 40-odd years of doing it the "old way" that's coloring my perception.

You do you how you want to do you. I'll remain me. We're not likely to change each others opinions on something so elusive, and illusory, as nomenclature.


But, if ya wanna arm wrestle...