What are all of the reasons you bring your fist back to your hip in Karate/Taekwondo/etc forms?

[Alan0354]

This is my answer to the main use of forms. Both to people who think forms are useless (are pushups useless?) or to those who think forms are a textbook for actual fighting, after I say they're not, and they go "oh, so you think they're useless?"

However, people say there are "so many reasons" to do this particular movement, so I was wondering what the "so many reasons" are. Based on the fact there aren't many more answers provided than what I'd already come up with, I'm wondering if "so many reasons" is as oversold as the practicality of the forms themselves.

It is oversold, people want to hang onto the pass, honor the tradition and refuse to learn new things.

It is ok if one tread it as art, but if people want to learn to fight, it's a different story. To me, MA is art of kicking butt, if it is useless in real fight or UFC, it's useless. It's two different things to honor the history and treat it as art vs practical fighting. They are very far apart. Most important thing is people has to be honest what they want to achieve and don't tell students otherwise.

NOW, it's important to note that I don't know MMA, my training is kickboxing from Bruce Lee era. I am CHOPPED MEAT compare to MMA. BUT, I have to be objective and be honest. I treat my training as aerobics now a days.

 

[Jimmythebull]

It's two different things to honor the history and treat it as art vs practical fighting. They are very far apart. Most important thing is people has to be honest what they want to achieve and don't tell students otherwise.

Thank you !

 

[isshinryuronin]

It's two different things to honor the history and treat it as art vs practical fighting. They are very far apart.

They are "very far apart" only for those who don't understand the true original technique. I say "original" because over the past century, competition, commercialization and loss of understanding has warped some techniques into being done ineffectively as far as real fighting goes.

 

[J. Pickard]

I agree that the rear elbow strike is a thing, and this does give you reps in elbow strikes and punches (or other techniques) at the same time. However, the idea that you would strike two opponents at the same time is silly to me. For one, unless you're in horse stance, your elbow isn't likely to reach the second person. And my criticism for all of the "hits 2 people" or "blocks 2 people" techniques in forms is: you shouldn't be between two people in the first place! Move and focus on one of them.

I have a hard time believing that an elbow strike done in this fashion would be effective in any way. The elbow strike would be to the side and is so close to the body that the person would have to be practically hugging you for the elbow to reach them. If they are that close and are enough of a threat that you need to strike them they are likely directly behind you, in which case the elbow would completely miss and be off to the side of their body. I suppose if you practiced some sort of side step with it then it could work, if I'm not mistaken there are some karate kata that actually do just that very thing.

I made the same discovery you did when I started training BJJ; I found that I actually used the pulling hand quite a bit when rolling, especially if I could grab a sleeve. I found that if I grabbed a sleeve with the pulling hand an the lapel with the other hand and executed a powerful straight punch as would be done in a TKD poomsae or Karate kata I could usually get my opponent off balance enough to just push them to the mat. Given that TKD was originally a Korean interpretation of Japanese Karate, and Japanese Karate came from Okinawan Karate, which has a lot of stand up grappling, I wouldn't be surprised if this was the original intent of hikite. Given the militaristic nature of old Japanese karate and older Taekwondo it likely evolved from that into more of an aesthetic thing based on making everything uniform and needing to look a specific way.

 

[Jimmythebull]

competition, commercialization and loss of understanding has warped some techniques into being done ineffectively

I find Tomiki Aikido much more realistic with it´s randori (just an example). Indeed Competition is healthy as it attracts young people to the system. sport is fighting & much better than traditionel training in a dojo without real fighting.

 

[skribs]

Given that TKD was originally a Korean interpretation of Japanese Karate, and Japanese Karate came from Okinawan Karate, which has a lot of stand up grappling, I wouldn't be surprised if this was the original intent of hikite. Given the militaristic nature of old Japanese karate and older Taekwondo it likely evolved from that into more of an aesthetic thing based on making everything uniform and needing to look a specific way.

This is kind of what my research has shown me. There used to be more practical versions that were taught, but there's been several layers of obfuscation from the original Karate forms to the Taekwondo poomsae we have today, that they're basically unrecognizable. Kind of like English from 1000 years ago.

 

[Alan0354]

They are "very far apart" only for those who don't understand the true original technique. I say "original" because over the past century, competition, commercialization and loss of understanding has warped some techniques into being done ineffectively as far as real fighting goes.

I am open to be convinced, just win some big fights, not talk, not making excuses that there are too much rules, it's too deadly, I don't want to show my secrets. Just win some fights.

 

[seasoned]

So as to not go on a tangent of miss information and to speak strictly of traditional Okinawan GoJu, the hand coming back to chamber never comes back empty. Full chambered hand starts with palm facing down to chamber position palm facing up. Fist clenched shoulder and elbow down and fist positioned just slightly below and to the side of the pectoral muscle. There are many applications from this uprooting and unbalancing maneuver, the simplest being, as you grab their arm your elbow turns down their elbow turns up.....

 

[drop bear]

This is my answer to the main use of forms. Both to people who think forms are useless (are pushups useless?) or to those who think forms are a textbook for actual fighting, after I say they're not, and they go "oh, so you think they're useless?"

However, people say there are "so many reasons" to do this particular movement, so I was wondering what the "so many reasons" are. Based on the fact there aren't many more answers provided than what I'd already come up with, I'm wondering if "so many reasons" is as oversold as the practicality of the forms themselves.

I think trying to make kata more than it is. Is a very strange thought exercise.

Bunkai is where the strangest stuff happens.

 

[skribs]

I think trying to make kata more than it is. Is a very strange thought exercise.

Bunkai is where the strangest stuff happens.

I also think it depends on if you're coming from "How else can I use this" instead of "This is all the hidden secrets".

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

the hand coming back to chamber never comes back empty.

That's an important point. Thanks for addressing that.

For

- boxing, a punch is just a punch.
- TMA, a punch is a punch followed by a garb, and pull.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think trying to make kata more than it is. Is a very strange thought exercise.

The form can be used to develop basic foundation too.

Your form training will force you to drill your footwork such as the circle walking. When you start to move around, your opponent will have hard time to punch you.

 

[wab25]

I am open to be convinced, just win some big fights, not talk, not making excuses that there are too much rules, it's too deadly, I don't want to show my secrets. Just win some fights.

How about Lyoto Machida using the original application for the traditional gedan-barai (front stance, down block) from Karate? He uses that technique in UFC matches, quite effectively.

Lyoto Machida: Old-School Karate

I've written plenty about Lyoto Machida 's karate over the past two years, but I thought we would try something different...

bleacherreport.com

By your arguments... boxers should quit jogging and jumping rope and hitting a speed bag. That stuff never gets used in the ring... Ever seen a wrestler run up bleachers in a wrestling match??? Maybe they should cut that part of their training....

 

[Alan0354]

How about Lyoto Machida using the original application for the traditional gedan-barai (front stance, down block) from Karate? He uses that technique in UFC matches, quite effectively.

Lyoto Machida: Old-School Karate

I've written plenty about Lyoto Machida 's karate over the past two years, but I thought we would try something different...

bleacherreport.com

By your arguments... boxers should quit jogging and jumping rope and hitting a speed bag. That stuff never gets used in the ring... Ever seen a wrestler run up bleachers in a wrestling match??? Maybe they should cut that part of their training....

I do not recall Machida do karate stance, pulling punches below shoulders. He fight like what MMA fighters at the time(late 90s). BTW, Lyoto Machida fights are SOOOOOO OLD!!! that's long time ago and MMA advanced so much since.

Jogging and jumping rope is more aerobics, that's very important for fighting so you don't run out of gas. So is running bleachers. Yes, I don't think speedbag is useful. I actually practice months on that. I was good enough to use the smallest of the 3 sizes and keep going without stopping until I want to stop. Absolutely did not see any benefit for punching.

BTW, Boxing is a sport of their own and they have their own competition that only use hands and no elbows. They might have practice what are useful for their competition, not for MMA. Remember boxer did NOT fair well in UFC in the first few competitions. MMA adopted boxing hands, but NOT limit to boxing hands only, they add wrestling, bjj, Muy Thai, TKD kicks. Boxing is only one part of MMA. Boxing alone won't survive in the Octagon.

 

[tkdroamer]

Is it meant to reflect fighting or is it meant to increase your range of movement?

You could probably just discount trying to come up with tactical reasons.

Plyometrics doesn't look like fighting either.

Truth.

 

[tkdroamer]

I also think it depends on if you're coming from "How else can I use this" instead of "This is all the hidden secrets".

To your English reference earlier, trying to tell someone new to martial arts the ready hand by the hip is for balance, speed, power, timing, etc... is like expecting someone new to the English language to understand stop means to halt. The explanation just doesn't make much sense early on. So, the obfuscation you mentioned could be taking place within this thread.
Instead of knowing that new people will seldom understand the explanation the 1st, 2nd, 10th time they hear it, we are quick to brush that aside for something that seems easier.
There is just too much about learning a physical exercise that cannot be taught by speaking it. There are no 'hidden secrets'. Just things that are hard to understand early on.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I also think it depends on if you're coming from "How else can I use this" instead of "This is all the hidden secrets".

Sometime it's difficult for a beginner to fighre out why the form creator created his form in a certain way if the teacher does not explain it.

What is he doing?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I haven’t had a chance to read all of the replies, so this might duplicate some of the responses.

My understanding of this is that it is mostly a beginner form, meant to restrict movement in certain ways. This has a few purposes, with two being particularly important to understanding the training method. Firstly (as others have mentioned) it gives both hands a job, so there's less flailing, etc. from new learners. Secondly, it helps develop the power generation method typically used. The push-pull of the hands mirrors and somewhat facilitates (by Newton's second law) the rotation of the hips that drives the power.

(As an aside, the hips driving the power is driven by the legs. It's often not taught explicitly that way, but the training method develops that movement if done properly.)

I think there may be an intention to also teach pulling back the hand after a strike, but I find this method counter-productive in that area if trained a lot.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think there may be an intention to also teach pulling back the hand after a strike, but I find this method counter-productive in that area if trained a lot.

In battle field, which weapon do you prefer to use? Do you prefer a spear?

or a spear with a hook on it?

IMO, a spear with a hook on it can control your opponent's weapon much better.

 

[geezer]

This is kind of what my research has shown me. There used to be more practical versions that were taught, but there's been several layers of obfuscation from the original Karate forms to the Taekwondo poomsae we have today, that they're basically unrecognizable. Kind of like English from 1000 years ago.

Wé efencymaþ, eaxlgestealla.