What a black belt really is

[PhotonGuy]

While it's fine to talk to a teacher about class expectations and goals/learning outcomes and objectives for a class, that kind of thing should be covered by the teacher well in advance. In school, it's done on the first day of a new term. The teacher hands out the syllabus and covers all of that stuff. My students don't have to ask me for that information. It benefits both the students and teacher for them to have that information.

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Yes but still, a good student might sometimes ask the teacher certain stuff after class if they don't understand something about the material. Those are the students that usually get As.

 

[chodancandidate]

There are times in our advanced class (red belts and black belts only) when my instructor will yell at someone being lazy, saying "Do you want to be a black belt? Train like a black belt, not like a while belt!" This says to me that there is a certain proficiency that is required in order to be a black belt, and that has to be maintained. My instructor says that black belts are held to a higher standard than color belts, that we have to have good technique because if we don't, the color belts won't either. They follow our example.

In my opinion, being a black belt is a reflection of practice and time. I started training when I was 19 years old, and I've always done the best that I could, training as if I was a black belt, because being a black belt is also a state of mind. You don't have to be a black belt to train like one, and given time and practice, you will get there.

 

[PhotonGuy]

There are times in our advanced class (red belts and black belts only) when my instructor will yell at someone being lazy, saying "Do you want to be a black belt? Train like a black belt, not like a while belt!" This says to me that there is a certain proficiency that is required in order to be a black belt, and that has to be maintained. My instructor says that black belts are held to a higher standard than color belts, that we have to have good technique because if we don't, the color belts won't either. They follow our example.

Good for your sensei. A good sensei should expect more out of their black belts and the higher belts. If anything, though, once you make black belt you expect more out of yourself. At least that's how it is with me.

In my opinion, being a black belt is a reflection of practice and time. I started training when I was 19 years old, and I've always done the best that I could, training as if I was a black belt, because being a black belt is also a state of mind. You don't have to be a black belt to train like one, and given time and practice, you will get there.

Training to be a black belt is just part of it. You also have to know your sensei's conditions for making black belt. And to know your sensei's conditions you might have to talk to your sensei. You've got a mouth, you've got to use it.

 

[Balrog]

I was reminded today of the old saying: a Black Belt is simply a White Belt who never gave up.

Lot of truth in it.

 

[TKDTony2179]

I was telling a friend at work that there are trillions of black belts out there. Some are good and some are bad. Some are horrible. But it is in the heart in mins that really makes you a black belt. Then I ran across this picture which should put it into words better.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

From your 1st degree black belt to your 4th degree black belt, you just devote your time for "yourself". From the 5th degree black belt and up, you start to devote your time for your "art". Your personal combat ability will no longer be your main priority, Your main goal is to promote your art and help others.

 

[Hyoho]

Belt colour has nothing to do with it. All high school kids who practice in Japan have Sandan.


Its about age Your expectancy and purpose alters with age. is. 20/30, 40 to 50 etc.

Few younger people in Japan are given responsibility regardless of what Dan they are.

Those of us that teach are minimum 6th Dan

 

[Chris Parker]

Yes the teacher does know a lot more than the student. And that's why the student should talk to the teacher and ask the teacher stuff that the student doesn't understand. The same way that in academic school, that after class, some of the students sometimes take a few extra minutes to ask their teacher stuff about the material that they don't understand. Those students are usually the ones that do the best in class.

Look, I encourage questions. I like it when students are hungry for information and insight. But it gets to a point where it becomes a substitution for actually working on anything. The old adage of "shut up and train" holds a lot of merit.

Additionally, you missed the point. I said that, depending on the art, the instructor, and their aims, there can be some very valid reasons to not necessarily give the students everything... and that your expectation of what you think it should be like is rather, well, irrelevant. You're essentially saying that you know better than the instructor what the best way for them to teach their art is... even though you're agreeing that the instructor does have more knowledge about it than you (as a student at the time) do. Sorry, no.

Yes I've heard that story and while it might have some merit, I don't entirely agree with it. By that logic, if the student did absolutely nothing than he would attain mastery instantaneously.

Again, you missed the point of the story. If the student did nothing, he would achieve nothing. But if he only focused on a far-away image, fantasising about it, he would miss all the essential moments that take him there... as well as being focused on something frankly imaginary (the "black belt", "mastery" are imaginary until they are known... when you are focused on it, you don't know what it is). What you need to do (the student) is to not focus on such fantasy, but instead embrace the moment you're in.

Right Ferris Bueller. I do think its important to stop and look around from time to time but also since life moves fast, its important to get done what you need to get done when you need to get it done, and that sometimes requires that you hustle.

Again, focusing on a imagination of the future does you no good. Embrace the moment, let it lead you where it does, and get the most out of each day you can.

Yes but still, a good student might sometimes ask the teacher certain stuff after class if they don't understand something about the material. Those are the students that usually get As.

This isn't academics, and it doesn't work the same way. You want to get good at this? It's a lot of solo time spent training at home.

More importantly, I'm noticing a pattern here. You have a tendency to answer with "Yeah, but..." a fair bit... which is an indication that you're simply not listening. It's an automatic negation of whatever anyone else says... and tells me that you're not going to hear any actual new ideas. I'd recommend you step back, and recognize that, when your hopes and imaginings of what you think reality should be doesn't match what is actually there, it might be time to re-assess your viewpoint.

From your 1st degree black belt to your 4th degree black belt, you just devote your time for "yourself". From the 5th degree black belt and up, you start to devote your time for your "art". Your personal combat ability will no longer be your main priority, Your main goal is to promote your art and help others.

Uh, not necessarily. I train in arts (Japanese) with no Dan rankings... I train in one where 5th Dan is the highest... so, for me, that's not really accurate.

 

[seasoned]

Author unknown

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Uh, not necessarily. I train in arts (Japanese) with no Dan rankings... I train in one where 5th Dan is the highest... so, for me, that's not really accurate.

May be I should say "for some systems".

IMO, the higher ranking is usually obtained from

- book publishing,
- DVD releasing,
- competition team training,
- tournament responding,
- workshop offering,
- public demo.
- ...

and is not from personal combat ability grading. It's how much that you have contributed to your art. So higher rank may not necessary mean higher combat skill and ability.

 

[MJS]

A good teacher wouldn't leave their student in the dark about what they need to do, and that's why a student shouldn't be afraid to talk to their teacher and if the student has a goal or needs help with something, they should talk to their teacher about it. And if I keep posting the same thing its because with some people it just doesn't register.

You still didn't answer my question. I asked why you think that a teacher would leave you in the dark as to what you need to do?? Of course, I don't ask my teacher every class, what I need to work on. When we're training our punches, blocks, kicks, etc, and he tells me that I need to punch harder, or kick harder, or perform a kata better, I know that he's looking at specific things, and that for my rank, I know I need to work on those things. As I've said before...each class is a test, so to speak. We don't ask when we can test or sign up when we feel we're ready. No, we wait until we're told, like it should be! He tests us formally, when HE feels we're ready, not the other way around.

 

[Rumy73]

Black belt status means different things to different ppl. Lay folks probably are in awe of it more than they should be. It is even further distorted by the fact that little Johnny has one too, and he is eight.

Black belts are a marketing tool and cash cow. While on one hand they represent having mastered a set of curriculum and tests, they also are monetized, in a very expensive way.

Growing as a martial artist does not require a belt chase. I have take lessons from the arts i received bb in and use them to stay fit and manage other parts of my life in a healthy way. White pajamas and colored belts are no longer part of my life.

So you got your BB at 28, great. Now find another goal in life.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Look, I encourage questions. I like it when students are hungry for information and insight. But it gets to a point where it becomes a substitution for actually working on anything. The old adage of "shut up and train" holds a lot of merit.

Additionally, you missed the point. I said that, depending on the art, the instructor, and their aims, there can be some very valid reasons to not necessarily give the students everything... and that your expectation of what you think it should be like is rather, well, irrelevant. You're essentially saying that you know better than the instructor what the best way for them to teach their art is... even though you're agreeing that the instructor does have more knowledge about it than you (as a student at the time) do. Sorry, no.

Talking to the sensei and asking questions is not a substitute for hard work. Rather, its to make sure that your hard work is also smart work. Lets say that you're a runner, you run track. Now let's say you aren't running properly, maybe there is something wrong with your stride that makes it slower than if you ran the right way. If you keep practicing your stride the wrong way, all the hard work in the world will just make you better at running the wrong way. If on the other hand if you talk to your coach and ask him if you need to fix anything about your running technique, if he's a good coach he will tell you what your doing wrong and how to fix it. Then, you have to work hard and apply what your coach said so you can become a better runner. That's when you shut up and train. No, talking to the coach is not some magical replacement for hard work, but that way you make sure that your hard work is smart work, and that you're applying it the right way. After all, what good is hard work if its not done right?

Again, you missed the point of the story. If the student did nothing, he would achieve nothing. But if he only focused on a far-away image, fantasising about it, he would miss all the essential moments that take him there... as well as being focused on something frankly imaginary (the "black belt", "mastery" are imaginary until they are known... when you are focused on it, you don't know what it is). What you need to do (the student) is to not focus on such fantasy, but instead embrace the moment you're in.

Again, focusing on a imagination of the future does you no good. Embrace the moment, let it lead you where it does, and get the most out of each day you can.

You take things one step at a time. A white belt should not be so focused on getting a black belt, rather they should be concentrating on getting a yellow belt of whatever belt comes after white which usually is yellow in lots of styles. After yellow belt, the student should then be focusing on getting the next belt up, and so forth. As for getting a black belt, you cross that bridge when you get to it. However, the important thing is that when you do get to that bridge to cross it. A student who is a high level brown belt, the rank right before black belt, should be focusing on getting their black belt and if necessary should talk to their sensei about what they need to do to get it. Of course the student has to do the work, but a good sensei should give the student the necessary information about the work they need to do.

This isn't academics, and it doesn't work the same way. You want to get good at this? It's a lot of solo time spent training at home.

More importantly, I'm noticing a pattern here. You have a tendency to answer with "Yeah, but..." a fair bit... which is an indication that you're simply not listening. It's an automatic negation of whatever anyone else says... and tells me that you're not going to hear any actual new ideas. I'd recommend you step back, and recognize that, when your hopes and imaginings of what you think reality should be doesn't match what is actually there, it might be time to re-assess your viewpoint.

Academics also requires lots of solo time training at home called studying.
An A is an achievement in academics, a black belt is an achievement in the martial arts. Aside from that, I don't see much difference. If you or anyone else sees other differences between the two marks of achievement, I would like to hear your feedback.
If it sounds like Im not listening than perhaps its because I'm not getting the point entirely at first. It might take a bit, especially since communication on message boards has severe limitations. This will take some patience. After all, its been discussed before about how patience is an important virtue in the martial arts. We should all practice it, and Im not excluding myself on this.

 

[PhotonGuy]

You still didn't answer my question. I asked why you think that a teacher would leave you in the dark as to what you need to do?? Of course, I don't ask my teacher every class, what I need to work on. When we're training our punches, blocks, kicks, etc, and he tells me that I need to punch harder, or kick harder, or perform a kata better, I know that he's looking at specific things, and that for my rank, I know I need to work on those things. As I've said before...each class is a test, so to speak. We don't ask when we can test or sign up when we feel we're ready. No, we wait until we're told, like it should be! He tests us formally, when HE feels we're ready, not the other way around.

In my dojo, my sensei did keep me in the dark, although it was perhaps my fault. There was this myth in my dojo that to take the black belt test you had to wait until the sensei told you that you could take it. I should've asked my sensei if it was true, that you had to wait for him to tell you that you could test for the black belt. As I said, it was a myth so it wasn't true but it was a very prevalent myth. If I had asked my sensei about it he would've dispelled the myth.

 

[Hyoho]

May be I should say "for some systems".

IMO, the higher ranking is usually obtained from

- book publishing,
- DVD releasing,
- competition team training,
- tournament responding,
- workshop offering,
- public demo.
- ...

and is not from personal combat ability grading. It's how much that you have contributed to your art. So higher rank may not necessary mean higher combat skill and ability.

Please add that nearly a lifetime within the association, teaching seven days a week, judgeing. I remember 6th Dan Kendo. Over 3000 grading. You step into the area, bow, drop into sonkyo (Fencing starting postion) and stand. A lot of graders get a yellow flag if they don't stand up correctly that means, "We've seen enough, try again next year"

 

[jks9199]

In my dojo, my sensei did keep me in the dark, although it was perhaps my fault. There was this myth in my dojo that to take the black belt test you had to wait until the sensei told you that you could take it. I should've asked my sensei if it was true, that you had to wait for him to tell you that you could test for the black belt. As I said, it was a myth so it wasn't true but it was a very prevalent myth. If I had asked my sensei about it he would've dispelled the myth.

I don't really want to harp on this, but...

Was nobody promoted while you're there? Did nothing else give you a clue that you needed to do something more in order to test? You seem to be awful intent on blaming your instructor rather than accepting some of the responsibility.

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[RTKDCMB]

Black belt status means different things to different ppl. Lay folks probably are in awe of it more than they should be. It is even further distorted by the fact that little Johnny has one too, and he is eight.

Black belts are a marketing tool and cash cow. While on one hand they represent having mastered a set of curriculum and tests, they also are monetized, in a very expensive way.

Growing as a martial artist does not require a belt chase. I have take lessons from the arts i received bb in and use them to stay fit and manage other parts of my life in a healthy way. White pajamas and colored belts are no longer part of my life.

So you got your BB at 28, great. Now find another goal in life.

What you are describing here is what takes place in the dreaded M'cdojo/M'cdojo and the like, not martial arts in general.

 

[Rumy73]

What you are describing here is what takes place in the dreaded M'cdojo/M'cdojo and the like, not martial arts in general.

Not totally mcdojo. BB and colored belts represent the human need for a pecking order. The odd phenomena in martial arts is that children can be placed higher in the continuum than adults, which is wrong (sorry, I your kid is mature and talented and that adult is not mature ;-).) Belts, trophies ,etc. are something that feeds the ego. A school without belts would be great but probably unpopular. However, so long as status and ego are tied to self worth, the current model will remain in play.

 

[Chris Parker]

Lovely, Wes... not actually accurate in the slightest, but lovely.

May be I should say "for some systems".

You phrased it pretty definitively... but, even with that qualification, I'd still be rather reticent to say anything specific about what one rank or another signifies across the board... it just doesn't work that way.

IMO, the higher ranking is usually obtained from

- book publishing,
- DVD releasing,
- competition team training,
- tournament responding,
- workshop offering,
- public demo.
- ...

and is not from personal combat ability grading. It's how much that you have contributed to your art. So higher rank may not necessary mean higher combat skill and ability.

Tournaments? Competition? DVD's? Books? Wow, I'm never going to get anywhere in, well, any of my systems...

Look, it's certainly true that physical combative performance isn't always at the top of the list of criteria for rank, but I'd even say that looking only at combative skill and ability is never at the top. Specific skill and ability within the art being trained, on the other hand, which might be combatively applied or applicable, is going to be there. But thinking of martial arts and ranking as only being about such mundane and low-level criteria simply doesn't take you very far... if that's all there is to martial arts training, and to attaining or being awarded rank, then martial arts training would only really apply for a short time, and the highest ranked people would all be in their 20's.

Talking to the sensei and asking questions is not a substitute for hard work. Rather, its to make sure that your hard work is also smart work. Lets say that you're a runner, you run track. Now let's say you aren't running properly, maybe there is something wrong with your stride that makes it slower than if you ran the right way. If you keep practicing your stride the wrong way, all the hard work in the world will just make you better at running the wrong way. If on the other hand if you talk to your coach and ask him if you need to fix anything about your running technique, if he's a good coach he will tell you what your doing wrong and how to fix it. Then, you have to work hard and apply what your coach said so you can become a better runner. That's when you shut up and train. No, talking to the coach is not some magical replacement for hard work, but that way you make sure that your hard work is smart work, and that you're applying it the right way. After all, what good is hard work if its not done right?

If he's a good coach, he'll catch it before you do. You won't need to ask.

Ask for clarification if you don't understand. Ask if you're stuck in your development. Ask if you want guidance. If you're doing something badly, you shouldn't have to ask. But, and this is a big one, what is "doing something badly" can vary wildly based on the student themselves... a beginner who is getting nearly everything "wrong", but has started to at least put the right foot forward this time, is congratulated on what they're doing right, and maybe given one more pointer ("Good, that's it. Just see if you can make sure you catch from above next time"), but a senior (brown or black) who got nearly everything right would be picked up on a subtle aspect of what went wrong, or can be improved ("You really need to make sure you drop into this, you're not getting anywhere near enough power"). But a good instructor should be able to see what each individual student needs without being asked. If not... look for a different teacher. I mean, you don't have to expect them to be a mind-reader, but they should be able to observe and provide proper guidance.

You take things one step at a time. A white belt should not be so focused on getting a black belt, rather they should be concentrating on getting a yellow belt of whatever belt comes after white which usually is yellow in lots of styles. After yellow belt, the student should then be focusing on getting the next belt up, and so forth. As for getting a black belt, you cross that bridge when you get to it. However, the important thing is that when you do get to that bridge to cross it. A student who is a high level brown belt, the rank right before black belt, should be focusing on getting their black belt and if necessary should talk to their sensei about what they need to do to get it. Of course the student has to do the work, but a good sensei should give the student the necessary information about the work they need to do.

Sometimes what the student needs is to wait.

Academics also requires lots of solo time training at home called studying.

Not exactly the same thing...

An A is an achievement in academics, a black belt is an achievement in the martial arts. Aside from that, I don't see much difference. If you or anyone else sees other differences between the two marks of achievement, I would like to hear your feedback.

Okay, an A is an indication of a single performance of academic knowledge. A black belt is a result of a long-term study and engagement in practice. It is an incremental development, a culmination of many lessons, multiple experiences, and years of work. There can be a single "test" for a black belt, but it's really not about that. It's about everything that went before it... that's really what a black belt is about. The A is all about the test.

From there, it's important to realise just why an academic study is quite different to a physical, over-arching area. Academics are about memorisation and recall, as well as application of formula, martial arts are about development of physical skills. The neuro-physiology is different, the learning methodology is different, the application and testing methodology is different, and so on...

If it sounds like Im not listening than perhaps its because I'm not getting the point entirely at first. It might take a bit, especially since communication on message boards has severe limitations. This will take some patience. After all, its been discussed before about how patience is an important virtue in the martial arts. We should all practice it, and Im not excluding myself on this.

Yeah, it can be a little difficult at times.

In my dojo, my sensei did keep me in the dark, although it was perhaps my fault. There was this myth in my dojo that to take the black belt test you had to wait until the sensei told you that you could take it. I should've asked my sensei if it was true, that you had to wait for him to tell you that you could test for the black belt. As I said, it was a myth so it wasn't true but it was a very prevalent myth. If I had asked my sensei about it he would've dispelled the myth.

Ask for clarification... that's a good plan. Believing in myths... not so good...

 

[MJS]

In my dojo, my sensei did keep me in the dark, although it was perhaps my fault. There was this myth in my dojo that to take the black belt test you had to wait until the sensei told you that you could take it. I should've asked my sensei if it was true, that you had to wait for him to tell you that you could test for the black belt. As I said, it was a myth so it wasn't true but it was a very prevalent myth. If I had asked my sensei about it he would've dispelled the myth.

You're still not answering the question. Let me ask again. Why would someone leave a student in the dark? I mean really...what possible thing could be gained from doing that? Stringing the student along, prolonging the BB test, so the teacher keeps getting money? If thats the case, then thats a mcdojo, and I'd run away..fast!!!

As for this 'myth', well, I'm sorry, but I've been training for over 20 yrs in the arts, and I've never seen a dojo like you describe, other than a mcdojo. Each and every dojo that I've trained in, the teacher told the student when they were ready, not the other way around. My teacher is very traditional, very old school, and is Japanese. I wouldn't dream of asking when I could test, for ANY rank, let alone BB, and I doubt any other student there would either. It's not done out of fear, its done out of respect!

Anyways, I'm done for now with this thread, at least until I can get a straigh answer from the question I asked you.