What a black belt really is

[K-man]

As far as a black belt being a form of public recognition, I don't see it that way. A black belt is not something you flaunt and you mostly only wear it in the dojo. And even in the dojo, MJS pointed out that this one black belt that he got he only wore it once. So when you get a black belt you shouldn't have to flaunt it or advertise to the world that you're a black belt, rather, its a form of self recognition and self confidence. Achieving something such as a black belt makes you feel good about yourself and boosts your self esteem. You know you can do something. And that will help you in all areas of life, not just in the martial arts. So that's where the importance of getting a black belt comes in.

Of course you only wear your belt in the dojo, but the dojo might be some other place, some other style or perhaps a seminar. When you train some other place your belt gives you credibility as a martial artist for starters. It is an indication that you have put in a lot of time and effort to get to a level of profiiancy. Of course that all turns to dust if your ability doesn't live up to the expectation

To me, if you need a black belt to feel good about yourself and boost your self esteem, I would really be asking yourself some serious questions. Maybe that is why you have raised these issues in the first place.
:asian:

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Yes I do have an unhealthy obsession and the way I deal with it is by talking about it. Its unhealthy to keep stuff bottled in and these message boards serve the purpose of enabling me to talk about it.

MartialTalk.com. Like therapy, but cheaper.

Right. Well by testing for the black belt that way I know for sure that I've reached my sensei's standards for that level of proficiency. Even if I were to test and fail, at least then not only would I know for sure that I didn't meet my sensei's standards for that level but more importantly I would know why I didn't meet that level and what I need to work on. At my dojo, when you fail a belt test they tell you why. That way I would need to know what I have to fix and where I need work, so that I can hopefully pass the next time around. All the hard work in the world will do you no good if its not being done properly. You will only get better at doing things the wrong way.

I would hope your instructor was giving you feedback on how you were doing all along, and not just when you got around to taking your test.

 

[Prostar]

So consider the distinction and figure which side of it you occupy.

I have a black belt.
I am a black belt.

In the comfort of your own room, with no one else to hear, which one do you see?

 

[Balrog]

Achieving Black Belt rank is achieving a goal, much like graduating from high school. You're learned the basics, now it's time to learn the art.

Becoming a Black Belt, however, is an ontological change. It's where one has accepted martial arts training and life skills as an integral part of their own life, and that takes time. I've used the analogy before of baking a cake. If the recipe says 2 hours at 250, you can't change it to 1 hour at 500.

 

[DennisBreene]

Yes I do have an unhealthy obsession and the way I deal with it is by talking about it. Its unhealthy to keep stuff bottled in and these message boards serve the purpose of enabling me to talk about it. And I want to make this clear, this is not just something that upset me 18 years ago. As I stated many times before, I wanted to get a black belt before I turned 20. I finally did get a black belt when I was 27, almost 28. So, this is something that didn't just upset me 18 years ago, its something that upset me for eight years from when I was 20 up until I finally did make black belt when I was almost 28. One of the main points Im trying to make is that if a student has a goal, they should talk to their sensei about it, whether its getting a black belt, or any other belt for that matter.

Talking about the pain and disappointment can be helpful. But I seems to me that until you find a way to let go of some of that pain, you will not see yourself as you should. You achieved the rank and met the standards. Right now, and forevermore, you are a black belt. Even when you get old and decrepit and can no longer perform the skills you perform as a young man, you will still be a black belt. That stands independent of the path you took to achieve the rank. If you can turn towards the future and what you wish to achieve from now on, you will be on a healthier path.

 

[Xue Sheng]

This has been discussed somewhat in other threads but I thought it would be appropriate to start a thread of its own on this, what a black belt really is. The way I see it, the rank of black belt is not so much the physical belt but rather, it means you've met your instructor's standards in obtaining a certain level of proficiency in the martial art being taught. Now, just because you've got a physical black belt doesn't mean you've met anybody's standards and anybody can go buy one at a store usually for under $10. With all due respect, some people such as ballen0351 didn't seem to understand that, at least not at first, in some of the other threads, saying that they could mail me a physical black belt if rank was all I cared about. Like I said, the rank of black belt is not the physical black belt rather its the physical black belt that represents the rank. Some people claim to have not worn their black belt all that much. This one person said he wore his black belt only once. Some people might not wear their black belt at all, they might hang it up or throw it in the closet but like I said, it is not the physical black belt that matters, what does matter is meeting the instructor's standards for making the rank. To meet an instructor's standards for the rank of black belt, an instructor that you have put your faith into and put forth the time and effort to train under, that is what a black belt really is.

I do Traditional Chinese Martial Arts and what a black belt means to me is I went to a store and bought it to hold up my pants....no belt ranks in TCMA

 

[Hyoho]

Actually, I test because my instructor tells me to. Evidence of my own skill, and my ability to pass it on, comes from people I've taught.

I had taken 27 Dan grades in various arts by the time I was 42 mostly at home in Japan. Doing more classical arts and getting just as much satisfaction I gave up with gradings. One association president asked me why I would not grade anymore and said, even if I didn't want to grade my students would be please to see their sensei get a higher rank

 

[DennisBreene]

I had taken 27 Dan grades in various arts by the time I was 42 mostly at home in Japan. Doing more classical arts and getting just as much satisfaction I gave up with gradings. One association president asked me why I would not grade anymore and said, even if I didn't want to grade my students would be please to see their sensei get a higher rank

Did that persuade you to continue testing for higher rank?

 

[ks - learning to fly]

IMO

The belt is a bi-product of the work

I AM a Black Belt.

 

[Hyoho]

Did that persuade you to continue testing for higher rank?

No, it didn't. My path and most of all ideals were towards learning classical arts that were based on a lifetimes study with no grades. The original traditional method. On top of that they offered a philosophical aspect

There also was the aspect of not just being good enough to grade but also the "having to know the right people" thing that goes along with high rank. It all gets a bit too personal and political.

 

[PhotonGuy]

IMHO, I think that some people put way too much faith in the belt itself. What I mean is, back in the day, you never heard of someone buying a BB. They eared it with blood, sweat and tears. Every class was a test. Belts were really earned, rather than handed out like we see in some schools today. God forbid you don't give little Joey a BB, he might cry to his parents, who in turn will get pissed off and pull their kid out of the school.

Does the BB mean that you've mastered everything? No, of course not. IMO, it means that you've reached a certain level, that you've reached certain standards. Does it mean that the journey is over? No, not at all. When you really think about it, once you reach that level, is it really necessary to learn a new technique or kata? No, and quite frankly, why do you need to learn more techs and kata? Sure, there are black belt level things in some arts, but in reality, the goal now is to really start looking at what you already know, and start breaking it down, getting deeper into it, and performing the material at a higher level.

A dojo that hands little Joey a black belt so his parent's won't pull him out of the school, I would not want to get a black belt at a place with such junk standards. I would want to get a black belt at a dojo that has good high standards but the important thing is for me as a student to know what I must do to meet those good high standards. That's where talking to the sensei comes in. The same way a student in academic class such as math or english who wants to get an A in the class should talk to their teacher about what they need to do to get an A, and a good and sensible student will talk to their teacher, a student in the martial arts should talk to their sensei about what they need to do to get a black belt if that's what they want.

 

[Chris Parker]

Right. Well by testing for the black belt that way I know for sure that I've reached my sensei's standards for that level of proficiency. Even if I were to test and fail, at least then not only would I know for sure that I didn't meet my sensei's standards for that level but more importantly I would know why I didn't meet that level and what I need to work on. At my dojo, when you fail a belt test they tell you why. That way I would need to know what I have to fix and where I need work, so that I can hopefully pass the next time around. All the hard work in the world will do you no good if its not being done properly. You will only get better at doing things the wrong way.

Testing for a black belt there (and passing) would only mean that you reached that instructors standards in that art, in that school. It really means nothing else. you might train for years and years in Shito Ryu, and get a Shodan there... but if you walk into, say, my school, you're a white belt. Same if you walk into a Judo school. Or a Wing Chun one. Or Iaido. Or another form of karate. So what does you black belt really mean, then? Outside of your school, nothing.

As far as a black belt being a form of public recognition, I don't see it that way. A black belt is not something you flaunt and you mostly only wear it in the dojo. And even in the dojo, MJS pointed out that this one black belt that he got he only wore it once. So when you get a black belt you shouldn't have to flaunt it or advertise to the world that you're a black belt, rather, its a form of self recognition and self confidence. Achieving something such as a black belt makes you feel good about yourself and boosts your self esteem. You know you can do something. And that will help you in all areas of life, not just in the martial arts. So that's where the importance of getting a black belt comes in.

Eh, I had a student who, when he passed his very first grading (9th Kyu), thanked me profusely. Simply passing a single grading in a martial art was a huge achievement for him. I recently promoted my first black belt. He'd been training so long, the belt itself didn't really mean anything to him. The recognition for his efforts did, of course, but that's it. And, when it comes down to it, a black belt is nothing. I mean, Shodan is just the first step (pretty literally, really)... how do you rate Nidan? Sandan? Yondan? Godan? Rokudan?

Reaching an achievement is great. But it can't be a fairly randomly chosen one. Without knowing what a black belt (in whatever art/school) actually means, it's actually rather pointless. And simply saying that it means that you've reached the standards of that instructor doesn't really mean anything either... what are their standards? Are they high? Low? Middle ground?

Yes I do have an unhealthy obsession and the way I deal with it is by talking about it. Its unhealthy to keep stuff bottled in and these message boards serve the purpose of enabling me to talk about it. And I want to make this clear, this is not just something that upset me 18 years ago. As I stated many times before, I wanted to get a black belt before I turned 20. I finally did get a black belt when I was 27, almost 28. So, this is something that didn't just upset me 18 years ago, its something that upset me for eight years from when I was 20 up until I finally did make black belt when I was almost 28. One of the main points Im trying to make is that if a student has a goal, they should talk to their sensei about it, whether its getting a black belt, or any other belt for that matter.

Honestly? The best advice I can offer is simple: Get over it.

 

[TKDTony2179]

Black belt is the highest requirements under an instructor. It also should represent a certain level of skill. When I first started training I wanted one. Paying for it without training didn't register in my brain because the belt represented skill. You should be able to show a certain level of skill in your art to pass under your instructor. Now that said it should only be the skill set under your art. Under laido, judo, or anything I haven't done will be a new skill set that needs to be learn. As long as you are TKD/TSD my instructor will honor your training under that art. But if you are something else then white belt it is.

Now as far as the belt meaning anything outside any school then no it don't. For the most part most people will say good job for you or they think you are invincible. But rank and belt don't mean nothing out a school. Just your skill if it ever needs to be use.

 

[MJS]

A dojo that hands little Joey a black belt so his parent's won't pull him out of the school, I would not want to get a black belt at a place with such junk standards. I would want to get a black belt at a dojo that has good high standards but the important thing is for me as a student to know what I must do to meet those good high standards. That's where talking to the sensei comes in. The same way a student in academic class such as math or english who wants to get an A in the class should talk to their teacher about what they need to do to get an A, and a good and sensible student will talk to their teacher, a student in the martial arts should talk to their sensei about what they need to do to get a black belt if that's what they want.

I was simply pointing out how many schools are, today. As for the rest of your post...you seem to have a pattern, as you post the same thing all the time. ie: high standads, talking to the teacher, etc. Why do you think that the teacher would leave you in the dark as to what you need to do?

 

[PhotonGuy]

I was simply pointing out how many schools are, today. As for the rest of your post...you seem to have a pattern, as you post the same thing all the time. ie: high standads, talking to the teacher, etc. Why do you think that the teacher would leave you in the dark as to what you need to do?

A good teacher wouldn't leave their student in the dark about what they need to do, and that's why a student shouldn't be afraid to talk to their teacher and if the student has a goal or needs help with something, they should talk to their teacher about it. And if I keep posting the same thing its because with some people it just doesn't register.

 

[Jaeimseu]

A dojo that hands little Joey a black belt so his parent's won't pull him out of the school, I would not want to get a black belt at a place with such junk standards. I would want to get a black belt at a dojo that has good high standards but the important thing is for me as a student to know what I must do to meet those good high standards. That's where talking to the sensei comes in. The same way a student in academic class such as math or english who wants to get an A in the class should talk to their teacher about what they need to do to get an A, and a good and sensible student will talk to their teacher, a student in the martial arts should talk to their sensei about what they need to do to get a black belt if that's what they want.

While it's fine to talk to a teacher about class expectations and goals/learning outcomes and objectives for a class, that kind of thing should be covered by the teacher well in advance. In school, it's done on the first day of a new term. The teacher hands out the syllabus and covers all of that stuff. My students don't have to ask me for that information. It benefits both the students and teacher for them to have that information.

Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk

 

[Chris Parker]

A good teacher wouldn't leave their student in the dark about what they need to do, and that's why a student shouldn't be afraid to talk to their teacher and if the student has a goal or needs help with something, they should talk to their teacher about it. And if I keep posting the same thing its because with some people it just doesn't register.

See, that's the thing. It's not that it's not registering, it's that that's your personal take on things, and it's just not necessarily so. Depending on the art, and the teacher, as well as the aims of the art and the teacher, it might actually be worse to give specific expectations in such a way. Note that I absolutely did not say "the aims of the student", because, bluntly, they're irrelevant. Especially as you near the higher ranks. As a teacher, when all's said and done, I don't give a damn what the student expects. They're there to learn what I have to offer, and I know the way I want to instil those lessons. I know why this student has to wait, and why this one needs to work on something in particular, even if they're not interested in it, or think they already know it.

Now, don't get me wrong. I want them to progress, I want them to get the skills... but it has to happen properly. In a real way, the teacher really does know a lot more than the student... especially about what the student's needs are. As a result, I set the timeline, not the student.

Have you heard the koan about the eager student?

A prospective student went to a master, and asked "Master, how long will it take me to attain mastery?" The master looked him up and down, and replied "10 years".

"But Master, that's so long.... what if I train every day?" "20 years" the master replied.

"But Master, I would train all day, every day... I would only stop for meals and to sleep... how long then?" "30 years" came the reply.

"I don't understand... if I train so hard, why does it take so much longer?"

"Ah", the master said, "a student who is so concerned with the finish has no presence... and misses every lesson that lies before them. Such a student never learns, instead seeking to skip straight to knowing".

"I understand" said the student, and trained with no thought of anything other than the lesson right in front of him.... and went on to become a great master himself.



In other words, life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you might miss it.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Have you heard the koan about the eager student?

A prospective student went to a master, and asked "Master, how long will it take me to attain mastery?" The master looked him up and down, and replied "10 years".

"But Master, that's so long.... what if I train every day?" "20 years" the master replied.

"But Master, I would train all day, every day... I would only stop for meals and to sleep... how long then?" "30 years" came the reply.

"I don't understand... if I train so hard, why does it take so much longer?"

"Ah", the master said, "a student who is so concerned with the finish has no presence... and misses every lesson that lies before them. Such a student never learns, instead seeking to skip straight to knowing".

"I understand" said the student, and trained with no thought of anything other than the lesson right in front of him.... and went on to become a great master himself.

Yes but how long did it take him.

 

[K-man]

Yes but how long did it take him.

It's obviously a mathematical progression ... so 40 years. QED

 

[PhotonGuy]

See, that's the thing. It's not that it's not registering, it's that that's your personal take on things, and it's just not necessarily so. Depending on the art, and the teacher, as well as the aims of the art and the teacher, it might actually be worse to give specific expectations in such a way. Note that I absolutely did not say "the aims of the student", because, bluntly, they're irrelevant. Especially as you near the higher ranks. As a teacher, when all's said and done, I don't give a damn what the student expects. They're there to learn what I have to offer, and I know the way I want to instil those lessons. I know why this student has to wait, and why this one needs to work on something in particular, even if they're not interested in it, or think they already know it.

Now, don't get me wrong. I want them to progress, I want them to get the skills... but it has to happen properly. In a real way, the teacher really does know a lot more than the student... especially about what the student's needs are. As a result, I set the timeline, not the student.

Yes the teacher does know a lot more than the student. And that's why the student should talk to the teacher and ask the teacher stuff that the student doesn't understand. The same way that in academic school, that after class, some of the students sometimes take a few extra minutes to ask their teacher stuff about the material that they don't understand. Those students are usually the ones that do the best in class.

Have you heard the koan about the eager student?

A prospective student went to a master, and asked "Master, how long will it take me to attain mastery?" The master looked him up and down, and replied "10 years".

"But Master, that's so long.... what if I train every day?" "20 years" the master replied.

"But Master, I would train all day, every day... I would only stop for meals and to sleep... how long then?" "30 years" came the reply.

"I don't understand... if I train so hard, why does it take so much longer?"

"Ah", the master said, "a student who is so concerned with the finish has no presence... and misses every lesson that lies before them. Such a student never learns, instead seeking to skip straight to knowing".

"I understand" said the student, and trained with no thought of anything other than the lesson right in front of him.... and went on to become a great master himself.

Yes I've heard that story and while it might have some merit, I don't entirely agree with it. By that logic, if the student did absolutely nothing than he would attain mastery instantaneously.

In other words, life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you might miss it.

Right Ferris Bueller. I do think its important to stop and look around from time to time but also since life moves fast, its important to get done what you need to get done when you need to get it done, and that sometimes requires that you hustle.