EPAK Weapons Techniques VS FMA Weapons Techniques.

[Brother John]

I don't think the FMA guys cross thier amrs any more then EPAK guys. If and when you do there are countering methods to deal with that such as using the weapon (stick or knife) for a leaver to escape.

The point isn't really that the arms cross, but that they cross with a weapon.
I've studied Modern Arnis....and yes, the arms do cross with a weapon (KNIFE) in the hands. In Kenpo we may, at times, cross the arms past one another.....but not with a naked Blade in one or both hands.
That's the point.
Countering isn't the point, the point is the edged/pointed weapon weaving with your other arm, near the elbow joint and the artery and the tendons of the forearm. Just not good practice I think.

Your Brother
John

 

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

I understand your point here however Modern Arnis holds the knive in the slashing /cutting manner where as other ststems like PT Kali holds the blade more like a ice pick with the blade in witch in turn create the "margin for error" position that we always refer to in EPAK so some of what you are refering to is mute.

 

[arnisador]

Crossada is a FMA technique. The risk mentioned is real, and yet there are also advantages to it. We don't usually cross the two arms as close as you might think--the knife may be cutting at the bicep while the guiding hand is on the wrist. For weapon against weapon, the guiding hand may be very important--if I cut your sword arm and your sword flies out at me, OUCH!

Other things that look like a crossed position, though, may just be a matter of practicing to be able to use the weapon from any position it ends up in. After a wide swing, it's on the other side of your body if it misses (closed position)...you still must be ready to strike with it!

 

[bujuts]

...Controlling the spine makes sense to disrupt the power of a punch. But a knife doesn't need that power. Everyone who has cut himself shaving knows it doesn't take much pressure to break skin. I could cut myself shaving while someone was trying to punch or control me. I could also cut someone else.

If I have enough room to play the defang the snake nickel-and-dime-you-to-death game, it's very hard to defend against (if you can't run). I can stay at just-touch-you range and get in enough cuts to wear you down. If I'm forced to close range, I can launch a stab at central body mass. Many blocks will still end up having the blade--which reaches several inches beyond the end of the hand--either reach the body or slide along the blocking arm. In addition, footwork is a huge part of what we do.

Kenpoists hit hard, in my experience. The empty-hand FMA strikes are, as a rule, not as hard. But you can't trade a hard hit for a stab. Even Mike Tyson couldn't count on a one-punch KO.

My point is, while you train to deny me my second option as you say, for me that second option is a built-in part of the first option. It's a chess game...and in chess, the winner is the person who makes the next-to-last mistake.
...
The empty-hand FMA response to a knife typically involves side-stepping and control of the weapon hand, followed by disruption of the opponent's balance, then striking such as knees to the thigh and/or a disarm. We block in a particular way (often the palusut). But, we also figure that even a very experienced FMAer is at a huge disadvantage against even an inexperienced knifer.

I should clarify is that an in empty hand scenario my first and primary objective (after running, guns, etc. are not available options, obviously) is to deflect and control that weapon. I 100% concur that it would be a monumentally bad idea to allow anyone - FMA or not - the ability to use that weapon whilst I was executing said manipulation of the skeleton. Control of the articulating joints that allow for that weapon to be used - wrist, elbow, shoulder, hips - is critical. Three basic D's apply - Deflect, Dominate, and Destroy. Me deflecting the blade is not enough. If I do not dominate, the knife fighter is still a knife fighter, and I'm in a "knife fight" which I will lose. Domination means just that - total physical domination. Destruction is the easy part, really.

Easier said than done, though. That's why I spent time at the range yesterday. Nothing like a well placed triple tap.

Salute, good discussion.

Steven Brown
UKF

 

[Hand Sword]

Also, keep in mind that the delivery of the knife attack in the Kenpo techniques is not the way trained or untrained people will attack you.

 

[Brother John]

I understand your point here however Modern Arnis holds the knive in the slashing /cutting manner where as other ststems like PT Kali holds the blade more like a ice pick with the blade in witch in turn create the "margin for error" position that we always refer to in EPAK so some of what you are refering to is mute.

I'm not certain how the angle that the blade is held in while passing between the arms in combat (where they can be struck or pinned together by the attacker while this motion happens) renders my point "moot".

could you explain some more?

I did like Arnisador's explanation: He also stated that there IS a tactical concern with in this consideration, but that there is also a tactical advantage it can give as well.

Your Brother
John

 

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

I still think that if you are going to be able to deal with a knife or stick then you should get some FMA training. Some of the EPAK technique are very useful however I just think that there are better ways. I think that there are people out there that can help you modify the kvife techniques so that they can work (Zach Whitson comes to mind).

 

[Brother John]

I still think that if you are going to be able to deal with a knife or stick then you should get some FMA training. Some of the EPAK technique are very useful however I just think that there are better ways. I think that there are people out there that can help you modify the kvife techniques so that they can work (Zach Whitson comes to mind).

No doubt.
Just wondered if you could explain why it's not a tactical hazard to cross your arms with a knife in one or both hands.

Your Brother
John

 

[bujuts]

Now that we're on the subject of fights which we will likely never get into, lets step into the realm of the even less likely - multiple assailants. How does the FMA strategy handle multiple attackers.

In my mind, first off, bleeding one out gets to be a bad idea. I'll let it go from there, interested to hear the responses.

Its not entirely unrealistic, just improbable. Doesn't have to be multiple knife attacks, necessarily, just consider it a multiple assailant deal in which you've deemed killing necessary.

Your thoughts, fellow MA's?

Steven Brown
UKF

 

[Blindside]

I study Pekiti Tirsia Kali, so my response won't reflect what other FMAs would likely do. PTK is designed as a close range art, where close range is defined to be inside of the normal slashing distance, equivelent to the HKE (headbutts, knees, and elbows) distance of some JKD lineages. It is also where you can acheive some level of control of the opponents weapon limbs and body movement by checking dimensional zones. Preferred finishes are thrusts to vital areas, but enroute to those finishes are disabling cuts to limbs. These disabling cuts are usually acheived by the live hand pushing the opponents limb, with pulling back agains the limb with the blade, this is where PTK prefers the reverse grip, blade in pattern (for a small blade), it allows extremely powerful cuts at close range. This type of cutting action is commonly used against the wrist or tricep, and is used as a terminal cut against the neck.

So with multiple attackers you should need see movement (footwork is life), and the lone person will probably initiate an entry on a peson of their choosing. Disable the weapon limb, thrust several times and then move on. The disabled limb should hopefully keep that person out of the fight. Other options include "hostage taking" of an opponent for cover in order to retreat or against opponents ranged weapons.

Lamont

 

[Ranger73]

I feel that Sayoc Kali compliments EPAK very nicely. The best thing about Knowing Kenpo is the ability to understand motion and how to make it work for you no matter what system you look at.