Wealth Inequality In America...and its perception?

[Jaeimseu]

So how does the Govt level the playing field?

The government can provide some help by giving financial assistance to those in need, by providing opportunities for people to receive training and/or education that might enable someone to improve their position and be better able to improve the position of future generations in their family.

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[ballen0351]

Just a few thoughts to throw in the mix, my opinions only ...

While I agree completely that the current tax system is seriously broken, I don't believe a flat tax would work because it would be very difficult to determine exactly what should be considered income for tax purposes. It would end up as convoluted as the current system.

A national sales tax also would not work because it would be a simple matter for the very rich to shift most purchases from the U.S. to another country. However, it would be a much better system than the current one.

The vast majority of the very wealthy did not get there through hard work, they got there by already having money.

I keep hearing the word 'fair' bandied about, but fair is for games with referees. Life is never fair, and no one should expect it to be.

I believe the present problems have come about in large part because a great many people are much more concerned with their own personal wealth than they are the good of the community, society, country, or world. Personal responsibility is a dying concept.

So what's your solution? And the rich can't buy from other countries if you place an import tax

 

[ballen0351]

The government can provide some help by giving financial assistance to those in need, by providing opportunities for people to receive training and/or education that might enable someone to improve their position and be better able to improve the position of future generations in their family.

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So your solution is take from one group of people and give to another.

 

[Steve]

No I agree anyone that doesn't pay taxes is a free loader I don't distinguish by income.

Great! That's it. Not so hard. Was it?

You blast the 40 thousand rich guys you claim don't pay taxes

This is what makes me smile. I'm blasting the 40 thousand rich guy I'm CLAIMING don't pay taxes? They AREN'T, and I've shown you the data, and yet you can't bring yourself to acknowledge it as fact. It's not my opinion that there are thousands of people who make a lot more money than you or me and pay a smaller percentage than either of us. It's not my opinion that many of these people have a nominal tax rate of zero%. It's fact. I'm not alleging it. It's documented, and I even pointed you to the chart on the IRS.gov website. One of us is being emotional, and sarcastic, and defensive. And I'll give you a hint, ballen. It's you.

Ultimately, if you'd simply acknowledged my first response to you, we'd be done. I said that you and I both agree that everyone should pay their "fair share." We might disagree on what "fair share" means, but we're both many steps to the right of socialism. Truthfully, we're closer than I thought on what is fair. The only chuckle I continue to get is your reluctance to say, "There are people at the top who are ALSO mooching and dragging us down." Not all of them. Certainly, our country benefits from the philanthropy of the extremely wealthy. And certainly, there are many (as can also be seen on the chart I shared), who contribute 20% or more in income tax. But, man, there are some greedy bloodsuckers at the top. And unless you are completely denying the actual, documented, verifiable, indisputably unequal distribution of wealth in our country, you will agree that the tax revenue lost at the top by fewer people is as significant a drain on our country as the tax revenue lost at the bottom. Granted, I am a product of the Seattle Public School Systems, so your dig at my education or intellect is well noted.

Did you even open the spreadsheet? I bet not. Seeing in black and white something that seems to be so at odds with yours and Don's world view would be shocking, I bet.

 

[Steve]

Anyway, employed people typically have their taxes taken out before they get any money, just like you.

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I'm not sure I understand this statement, so if I'm misunderstanding, my apologies. The taxes taken out of a paycheck for FITW is an estimate based upon your expected tax obligation. If my adjusted gross income is $100,000 this year and I have had $13,000 taken out of my paychecks as FITW, my withholding is 13%. If I get all $13,000 back as a refund, my effective tax rate is 0%.

 

[Steve]

So your solution is take from one group of people and give to another.

Here's a serious question for you, ballen. You seem to think that if a poor person benefits in some way from the success of a rich person, that this is wrong. Taking from one group of people and giving to another. Right? Here's the question: Do you believe that people who are wealthy become so on their own without taking anything from the middle class and poor? In other words, do you believe that the taking only goes one way?

This is a genuine question and will help me understand your perspective. I think that if you do believe that it goes only one way, it will explain a lot of your posts.

 

[ballen0351]

Here's a serious question for you, ballen. You seem to think that if a poor person benefits in some way from the success of a rich person, that this is wrong. Taking from one group of people and giving to another. Right? Here's the question: Do you believe that people who are wealthy become so on their own without taking anything from the middle class and poor? In other words, do you believe that the taking only goes one way?

This is a genuine question and will help me understand your perspective. I think that if you do believe that it goes only one way, it will explain a lot of your posts.

Depends on how the person got wealthy.

 

[ballen0351]

Great! That's it. Not so hard. Was it?

Too bad you cant do the same

This is what makes me smile. I'm blasting the 40 thousand rich guy I'm CLAIMING don't pay taxes? They AREN'T, and I've shown you the data, and yet you can't bring yourself to acknowledge it as fact. It's not my opinion that there are thousands of people who make a lot more money than you or me and pay a smaller percentage than either of us. It's not my opinion that many of these people have a nominal tax rate of zero%. It's fact. I'm not alleging it. It's documented, and I even pointed you to the chart on the IRS.gov website. One of us is being emotional, and sarcastic, and defensive. And I'll give you a hint, ballen. It's you.

Ultimately, if you'd simply acknowledged my first response to you, we'd be done. I said that you and I both agree that everyone should pay their "fair share." We might disagree on what "fair share" means, but we're both many steps to the right of socialism. Truthfully, we're closer than I thought on what is fair. The only chuckle I continue to get is your reluctance to say, "There are people at the top who are ALSO mooching and dragging us down." Not all of them. Certainly, our country benefits from the philanthropy of the extremely wealthy. And certainly, there are many (as can also be seen on the chart I shared), who contribute 20% or more in income tax. But, man, there are some greedy bloodsuckers at the top. And unless you are completely denying the actual, documented, verifiable, indisputably unequal distribution of wealth in our country, you will agree that the tax revenue lost at the top by fewer people is as significant a drain on our country as the tax revenue lost at the bottom. Granted, I am a product of the Seattle Public School Systems, so your dig at my education or intellect is well noted.

Did you even open the spreadsheet? I bet not. Seeing in black and white something that seems to be so at odds with yours and Don's world view would be shocking, I bet.

I opened the spread sheet. I also was able to change the numbers and resave it, I can make it say anything I want. The Spread sheet didnt tell me why these people didnt pay taxes if the chart is legit. It didnt show me what deductions they had, what losses they showed. If they cheated or violated the law they need to be charged and sent to jail like wesley snipes.
You claim I'm emotional and sarcastic but you the one tossing around insults and snarcky comments not me. Your hung up on 40k people (who I already said multiple times should be paying taxes) who are a drop in the bucket compared to the Millions you refuse to acknowledge as freeloaders.

And again your math is wrong. MIllions of people not only pay in zero they also receive Billions of others tax dollars. So they are in effect double dipping for lack of a better term they dont put in and they take out large amounts. The top few that you call greedy bloodsuckers (odd term for people that just want to keep what was theirs in the first place. I didnt know keeping your own money was greedy) May not pay in 20+% but they also dont take out anything, they pay for their own food, cell phones, rent, medical bills, day care, ect. So they are only screwing us once. So you cant just compare tax dollars owed you must also add tax dollars taken for the total and then you will see where your math is wrong.

 

[Steve]

Too bad you cant do the same


I opened the spread sheet. I also was able to change the numbers and resave it, I can make it say anything I want. The Spread sheet didnt tell me why these people didnt pay taxes if the chart is legit. It didnt show me what deductions they had, what losses they showed. If they cheated or violated the law they need to be charged and sent to jail like wesley snipes.
You claim I'm emotional and sarcastic but you the one tossing around insults and snarcky comments not me. Your hung up on 40k people (who I already said multiple times should be paying taxes) who are a drop in the bucket compared to the Millions you refuse to acknowledge as freeloaders.

And again your math is wrong. MIllions of people not only pay in zero they also receive Billions of others tax dollars. So they are in effect double dipping for lack of a better term they dont put in and they take out large amounts. The top few that you call greedy bloodsuckers (odd term for people that just want to keep what was theirs in the first place. I didnt know keeping your own money was greedy) May not pay in 20+% but they also dont take out anything, they pay for their own food, cell phones, rent, medical bills, day care, ect. So they are only screwing us once. So you cant just compare tax dollars owed you must also add tax dollars taken for the total and then you will see where your math is wrong.

First, if I'm being snarky, I apologize. I'm actually really trying to be patient with you and NOT be snarky. So, if it's coming across as snarky, my bad.

Earlier you asked if people receiving benefits makes me angry. It doesn't. Not at the top or at the bottom. I think there is no difference between a person in the bottom 20% of earners taking advantage of available assistance as at the top 20%. I also think it's important to consider the difference between income for subsistence and disposable income. While I'm sure that people who earn in the top 20% spend more on food, milk is the same price whether one makes a fortune or not. So, we do certainly disagree on welfare, and while I can see that you'd like to make this about that I don't know that it would be constructive or helpful to the conversation. But, can we at least agree that, if your income is $12,000 per year, you certainly have less disposable income than a person who earns over $100,000?

As for the 40,000 people or so, if their income were taxed at 10% as opposed to 0%, we're talking about billions of dollars. Sure, I'm a product of Garfield HS, but it doesn't take a math professor (no offense, Arni ) to do the quick math. 44 people earned over $10,000,000 in 2011 (AGI) and paid 0% income tax. If they paid 10%, that would be at least $44,000,000 income tax revenue. That's just one bracket. Overall, we're talking billions of dollars. Can we agree that this is a significant amount?

Finally, you say we can't just compare tax dollars owed, but must also add tax dollars taken. This gets back to my question to you, which I'd still like to hear more about. Do you think that people who make six or more figures each year do so without benefiting from American tax dollars? You said, depends upon how they make their money, and that might be true. I'm interested to hear more. Your entire position is grounded in the idea that people who are poor benefit, while people who are not poor don't benefit from tax dollars. This is interesting to me, but in order for your position to work, you need to establish that the poor don't contribute, while the rich don't benefit.

Finally, greedy bloodsuckers... I was trying to come up with an equivalent term to freeloader. It was, in my head, a tongue and cheek term from Zorro, The Gay Blade which I just watched with my teenagers (quick aside, it is STILL very funny.) In it, George Hamilton is talking to the love interest, Ms. Charlotte Taylor Wilson:

Charlotte Taylor Wilson: [to the crowd] Let your voices be heard! Oppose the… greedy bloodsuckers!
Charlotte Taylor Wilson: Thank you. I'm Charlotte Taylor Wilson. I'm with the People's Independence Committee.

Don Diego: Don Diego Vega. I'm with the… greedy bloodsuckers.

 

[K-man]

To be honest. To an outsider, reading the sentiment expressed in this thread is really, really scary.
:asian:

 

[Steve]

To be honest. To an outsider, reading the sentiment expressed in this thread is really, really scary.
:asian:

Hey, can you elaborate? Living in America, it's difficult to get a sincere sense of how it looks from the outside.

 

[K-man]

Hey, can you elaborate? Living in America, it's difficult to get a sincere sense of how it looks from the outside.

Running the risk of incurring the wrath of Ballen, I think that the increasing gap between rich and poor and the increasing number of poor as the wealth is transferred to the rich will eventually cause a total social breakdown. The fact that people in your society cannot see the need to support those with very little, even though a small number may be rorting the system, goes against every tenet of civilised society. To compound that problem by blaming the poor because they haven't the means to pay tax absolutely blows my mind. Then at the other end of the scale to defend the people who have sent the jobs off shore and caused the problem in the first place all the time contributing as little as possible to the society in which they live ... amazing!
:asian:

 

[pgsmith]

So what's your solution? And the rich can't buy from other countries if you place an import tax

Therein lies the problem. I have no solutions, only complaints. Not that any solution that I could come up with would make any difference. I don't have the proper amount of money or influence to make our legislators pay any attention to me what so ever.

The system is broken, and I've no idea how to fix it. The good part is that it should hold together long enough to ensure that I'm gone before it all falls to pieces. The bad part is that I feel sorry for the future generation that has to end up dealing with the fall out.

 

[Steve]

Running the risk of incurring the wrath of Ballen, I think that the increasing gap between rich and poor and the increasing number of poor as the wealth is transferred to the rich will eventually cause a total social breakdown. The fact that people in your society cannot see the need to support those with very little, even though a small number may be rorting the system, goes against every tenet of civilised society. To compound that problem by blaming the poor because they haven't the means to pay tax absolutely blows my mind. Then at the other end of the scale to defend the people who have sent the jobs off shore and caused the problem in the first place all the time contributing as little as possible to the society in which they live ... amazing!
:asian:

All true, but remember that ballen represents a minority perspective. While there are a significant number of people who agree with ballen, it's not even half of the country. The issues are grounded in political rhetoric, but some of the questions I've posed to ballen are a given for most Americans.

For example, most Americans have no problems at all with the idea that we should provide for those who cannot provide for themselves.

Most Americans, even the staunchest conservatives, will also freely agree that there are people below a certain level (whether that's the poverty line or somewhere slightly above it) where exemptions are both necessary and appropriate.

So, while it's easy to despair, and at times I really wonder, don't let the extremist positions sometimes promoted on this forum lead you to believe that they represent more than a fraction of the population. We have extremists on the left who are equally scary, and if it's any comfort, they all typically rail against each other and leave those of us in the middle largely alone. You'll notice that all of the rhetoric from people like billc references a liberal that exists only on the extreme left or as the boogeymen in stories that Michelle Malkin and her ilk tell their children to frighten them. Just as Michelle Malkin and Ann Coulter are the stuff of nightmare for little hippy children on the extreme left.

 

[Jaeimseu]

I'm not sure I understand this statement, so if I'm misunderstanding, my apologies. The taxes taken out of a paycheck for FITW is an estimate based upon your expected tax obligation. If my adjusted gross income is $100,000 this year and I have had $13,000 taken out of my paychecks as FITW, my withholding is 13%. If I get all $13,000 back as a refund, my effective tax rate is 0%.

Yes, of course. If a person gets a complete refund then the effective rate it 0%. My point is that there is a difference between someone who pays 0% because their income is so low and someone who makes lots of money and actively tries to "game" the system. Poor people don't have the dough to hire a team of accountants to get a 0% rate.

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[Jaeimseu]

So your solution is take from one group of people and give to another.

Yes.

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[Steve]

Yes, of course. If a person gets a complete refund then the effective rate it 0%. My point is that there is a difference between someone who pays 0% because their income is so low and someone who makes lots of money and actively tries to "game" the system. Poor people don't have the dough to hire a team of accountants to get a 0% rate.

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I understand now. Thanks.

 

[ballen0351]

Yes.

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You first then. Oh wait you don't even live here

 

[ballen0351]

All true, but remember that ballen represents a minority perspective. While there are a significant number of people who agree with ballen, it's not even half of the country. The issues are grounded in political rhetoric, but some of the questions I've posed to ballen are a given for most Americans.

For example, most Americans have no problems at all with the idea that we should provide for those who cannot provide for themselves.

Most Americans, even the staunchest conservatives, will also freely agree that there are people below a certain level (whether that's the poverty line or somewhere slightly above it) where exemptions are both necessary and appropriate.

So, while it's easy to despair, and at times I really wonder, don't let the extremist positions sometimes promoted on this forum lead you to believe that they represent more than a fraction of the population. We have extremists on the left who are equally scary, and if it's any comfort, they all typically rail against each other and leave those of us in the middle largely alone. You'll notice that all of the rhetoric from people like billc references a liberal that exists only on the extreme left or as the boogeymen in stories that Michelle Malkin and her ilk tell their children to frighten them. Just as Michelle Malkin and Ann Coulter are the stuff of nightmare for little hippy children on the extreme left.

Oh please. I didn't know wanting the rich and Poor to pay a little into the system, you know like Obama says "put some skin in the game" was extreme. Maybe if everyone paid something we wouldn't be so free with handing out crazy programs like free cell phones. Ive never once said we shouldn't have safety nets. How ever cradle to the grave assistance Is just not sustainable. No matter how sad it is we cant as a nation keep going like this. There are 100 MIllion people getting some form of Food assistance according to the USDA. Where is that money coming from? OH yeah China. So call me whatever you want but when the money runs out all together what happens to these poor then?

 

[Makalakumu]

Therein lies the problem. I have no solutions, only complaints. Not that any solution that I could come up with would make any difference. I don't have the proper amount of money or influence to make our legislators pay any attention to me what so ever.

The system is broken, and I've no idea how to fix it. The good part is that it should hold together long enough to ensure that I'm gone before it all falls to pieces. The bad part is that I feel sorry for the future generation that has to end up dealing with the fall out.

I think part of a real solution lies in reforming our monetary system. There are lots of people who have described what needs to be done in a various ways. Ron Paul is the most prominent.