Big Don
Sr. Grandmaster
Yet, you seem to be OK with half of the country not pulling their weight.
Wealth Inequality In America...and its perception?
- Thread starter elder999
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Steve
Mostly Harmless
Nope. I'm all for a flat rate income tax. You see what you want to see. I've said so consistently for years.
But you didn't answer the question. How much is zero percent of a million? Doesn't it make you mad that freeloaders are mooching? Oh yeah... They're rich... They're the victims.
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Jaeimseu
3rd Black Belt
Big Don
Sr. Grandmaster
Do you REALLY believe this?
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Look around, if you don't believe it you're either delusional or dishonest.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
It's a simple question, don. Is a rich person who makes a million and pays zero tax a freeloader? Doesn't that make you angry? Yes or no...
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ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Do the millions of poor that pay nothing and take Govt assistance freeloaders? do they make you angry?
What if paying zero taxes somehow is a good thing rich or poor?
granfire
Sr. Grandmaster
why do you begrudge them their having nothing?
They don't go anywhere, do nothing. They consume. That means they spend money.
On the other hand, the top 2%....off-shore accounts do not help the country. The CEOs you defend have damaged the economy. Don't believe me? Look up K-Mart and Enron. And those are just the tip of the iceberg!
You are defending people who take away the jobs of the poor people. The manufacturing jobs, heck, even the mildly skilled jobs like customer service, giving them to some folks on the other side of the globe, so they can save labor cost and maximize their bottom line, all while not paying taxes. Where does that play into your world picture?
So far the bottom part of the social pyramid is getting screwed and charged for it. Figuratively speaking.
I am all for fairer taxes: I settle for the money bags paying the same % in taxes that I do.
Oh, I know, those 4% points they have to thow into the bucket extra will be much more than my contribution, probably for my lifetime, but you said you wanted fair taxes....In case you wonder where my numbers came from: Ole Mitt reportedly paid about 14% taxes, Yours truly pays roughly 18%. Fair?
so far what is happening: Schools are being stripped of money, leaving those with no alternatives (AKA money) to suffer in ignorance. Instead we build more jails. Logic at work....
but while we doom the low end to remain poor (all the different mechanisms at work, going past the scope of this thread) we also begrudge them the measly pennies, the crumbs off society's table.
Yes, I know there are carrier poor who milk the system. But I bet you, for each who does that, there are plenty who do not. Who do not flaunt their status, but adhere to the rules. Because they know very well the scorn of people, not unlike yourself, who judge them harshly, without knowing a single thing about them and their circumstance.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
1st before you jump into something read what I wrote. I said the system is broke and needs to be scrapped in exchanged for a federal sales tax. Then everyone pays the same and you can't hide money because there is no reason to hide it.
2nd Mitt paid lower % because he wasn't paying income taxes. He was paying taxes on interest earned on investments. He already paid income tax on that same money years ago when he earned it so in reality that money is being taxed twice
3rd our punitive tax system against success is one reason these jobs are moved overseas. The more success you make the higher your tax burden. Yet you loose money its a tax deduction. The tax system is flawed.
4th the poor that pay nothing also take more govt services and tax dollars then a rich person that's paying a lower %. At least the rich guy isn't taking tax payers money for his cell phone bill, rent, food, medical costs.
2nd Mitt paid lower % because he wasn't paying income taxes. He was paying taxes on interest earned on investments. He already paid income tax on that same money years ago when he earned it so in reality that money is being taxed twice
3rd our punitive tax system against success is one reason these jobs are moved overseas. The more success you make the higher your tax burden. Yet you loose money its a tax deduction. The tax system is flawed.
4th the poor that pay nothing also take more govt services and tax dollars then a rich person that's paying a lower %. At least the rich guy isn't taking tax payers money for his cell phone bill, rent, food, medical costs.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I've already said that I'm for a flat tax, and im not trying blatently to avoid acknowledging an obvious double standard.
So, how about it. Ballen? Don? Do you even have it in you to acknowledge that there are thousands of people to make a lot of money who are also freeloaders. I know it challenges your preconception that the poor are the mooches and the rich are the victims. And I have to admit, the gyrations you're willing to go through to avoid it is wild.
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Jaeimseu
3rd Black Belt
When I look around I can see that there are many many people who will have nothing even if they work harder than some rich people. Many of these people aren't trying to get rich with less effort. They just want to feed their families, and some need a little help to do it.
To say thay conservatives want to work hard and liberals want a free ride is ridiculous, and I'm not a lefty. I suspect that most "liberals" simply want to make the pursuit of happiness "fair". Right now, the rich get richer and the poor stay poor, with few exceptions.
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ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
I already told you I'm for a national sales tax so nobody gets away without paying. The gyrations you go through to blast 40000 rich guys and give passes to Millions of poor for doing the same thing is wild
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
So how does the Govt level the playing field?
CNida
Green Belt
Obviously you can afford them or you wouldn't be paying them.
I'm not talking about the lower class derelicts who refuse to pay taxes. I'm talking about the ones who legitimately can't pay them.
Who decides what you can and cant afford? You tell me. But you're right. It doesn't matter because at the end of the day, if a person can't afford to pay the tax, they simply can't pay.
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CNida
Green Belt
Its more accurate to say "The rich get richer and the poor get prison". Thats actually a book and a damn interesting read.
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"A man who has attained mastery of an art reveals it in his every action." - Anonymous
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
I have no choice they take it from my check before I ever see it. I think if people actually had to write a check for their tax bills they wouldn't be so quick to give the govt so much of our money. We would hold them more accountable
Steve
Mostly Harmless
So then, you're agreeing with me that anyone who makes a lot of money and pays no income tax is a freeloader?
No gyrations on my part. Where have I given anyone a free pass? I may have missed it, and if you can quote me giving anyone a free pass, I'd appreciate it. The disconnect that you can't see here is that you rail in this thread and others about the millions of people who are, literally, living hand to mouth, and you say I'm "blasting" rich guys. It's genuinely amusing to me that you are unwilling to acknowledge that it's freeloading at the top. And the math is such that the guys at the top who pay no taxes are likely costing America more than the millions at the bottom, because of the inequality that was highlighted in the first post of this thread.
Watching you guys wrestle with this is like watching rhetorical gymnastics. It reminds me of the Martin Short character from the old SNL skits, nervous and sweating, saying, "I didn't say that. You said that. I'm not defensive. You're the ones who are being defensive. It's not me... it's him."
pgsmith
Master of Arts
Just a few thoughts to throw in the mix, my opinions only ...
While I agree completely that the current tax system is seriously broken, I don't believe a flat tax would work because it would be very difficult to determine exactly what should be considered income for tax purposes. It would end up as convoluted as the current system.
A national sales tax also would not work because it would be a simple matter for the very rich to shift most purchases from the U.S. to another country. However, it would be a much better system than the current one.
The vast majority of the very wealthy did not get there through hard work, they got there by already having money.
I keep hearing the word 'fair' bandied about, but fair is for games with referees. Life is never fair, and no one should expect it to be.
I believe the present problems have come about in large part because a great many people are much more concerned with their own personal wealth than they are the good of the community, society, country, or world. Personal responsibility is a dying concept.
While I agree completely that the current tax system is seriously broken, I don't believe a flat tax would work because it would be very difficult to determine exactly what should be considered income for tax purposes. It would end up as convoluted as the current system.
A national sales tax also would not work because it would be a simple matter for the very rich to shift most purchases from the U.S. to another country. However, it would be a much better system than the current one.
The vast majority of the very wealthy did not get there through hard work, they got there by already having money.
I keep hearing the word 'fair' bandied about, but fair is for games with referees. Life is never fair, and no one should expect it to be.
I believe the present problems have come about in large part because a great many people are much more concerned with their own personal wealth than they are the good of the community, society, country, or world. Personal responsibility is a dying concept.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
No I agree anyone that doesn't pay taxes is a free loader I don't distinguish by income. You blast the 40 thousand rich guys you claim don't pay taxes yet you didn't see their tax returns to see how or why and make excuses for the Millions that don't pay because they live hand to mouth. I'm being honest that we can't sustain 100000000 people getting some type of food assistance and 50% of Americans not paying any taxes. Your being emotional blaming the 40thousand that don't pay for the problems and ignoring the millions that are the real problems
Jaeimseu
3rd Black Belt
Is it really the same thing? Poor people who either don't have enough income to pay taxes/be taxed and rich people who choose not to pay or can afford to hire someone else to find ways to not pay seem very different to me.
Anyway, employed people typically have their taxes taken out before they get any money, just like you.
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