Watered Down Martial Arts

[GojuTommy]

after giving some thought about why i would not allow fish hooking in a rule set i create, beyond 'thats just how everyone else has done it' here are the reasons I have come up with.

Unsporting- it makes a very hard to defend technique (without biting) that controls the head, and for it to get to the level of danger so many here are afraid of, you must first achieve a very dominant position, as well as being low skill.
Dangerous to the user- seemingly high risk of accidental bites causing serious wounds to the fingers.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

after giving some thought about why i would not allow fish hooking in a rule set i create, beyond 'thats just how everyone else has done it' here are the reasons I have come up with.

Unsporting- it makes a very hard to defend technique (without biting) that controls the head, and for it to get to the level of danger so many here are afraid of, you must first achieve a very dominant position, as well as being low skill.
Dangerous to the user- seemingly high risk of accidental bites causing serious wounds to the fingers.

True, missing fingers could make for a difficult time grappling.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Expert opinion in what exactly? Expert at running a sport promotion? That certainly doesn’t qualify them speak with authority on the subject.
Expert at the sport in question? If they’ve never done it or had it done to them what authority do they then have to speak on it?

Most of these rules were put into place before anyone considered doing any actual data collection and analysis on the subject of these techniques, so they’re banned simply because someone 100+ years ago had an opinion likely with out any evidence to support it, and made a rule.

Explain why headbutts are illegal in every major combat sport but have not been an issue in lethwei competitions?

"Experts in what exactly"?

Combat sports. I keep saying that, don't I? There isn't a single one that allows it, but your logic is that's really because...why?

As of now you and others are playing devil's advocate, it's kind of obvious.

And the whole arguing from ignorance (where's the evidence) is kinda backwards. How you gonna find data on a banned technique that was banned because of injury? That data is in the same place as baseball bats to the head data.

It's like you are second guessing the entire combat sports community with nothing but theory and speculation. Weird.

 

[Oily Dragon]

True, missing fingers could make for a difficult time grappling.

If you look over the history of illegal fishhooks in wrestling and MMA you'll see there's little chance of bitten fingers (since some fish hooking controls the jaw preventing biting, others avoid the teeth line entirely).

And of course, fish hooks give competition advantages, too. Wrestling 101. I already posted a video of that. Dude wins using a fishhook, other dude was so angry he punched the fish hooker.

Honestly, this entire derail has gotten dumb. Now I'm being demanded to prove why headbutts are illegal in MMA but not Lethwei?

Whatever guys. You do you.

 

[GojuTommy]

"Experts in what exactly"?

Combat sports. I keep saying that, don't I? There isn't a single one that allows it, but your logic is that's really because...why?

As of now you and others are playing devil's advocate, it's kind of obvious.

And the whole arguing from ignorance (where's the evidence) is kinda backwards. How you gonna find data on a banned technique that was banned because of injury? That data is in the same place as baseball bats to the head data.

It's like you are second guessing the entire combat sports community with nothing but theory and speculation. Weird.

Expert in combat sport is such a broad term that it’s essentially meaningless.

You have nothing to support you except appeals to authority.
You claim the danger and damage is well documented but can’t provide any such documentation.

You make claims about rules that were created like 200+ years ago.

Western combat sports are all based around either boxing or wrestling, and even the Asian combat sports have migrated more that way because the big money is in the west.

You refuse to explain why headbutts are legal in lethwei but no where else because there’s no good reason for it.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Ok so I just spoke with the ED doc who trained in South Central L.A. In the 1980s. He saw the actual mouth on curb stomp there at least 5 times. I grew up near there and never saw it, so there you go. Evidence wins this one.

I do think it's mostly a thing in metropolitan areas, especially those with a lot of gangs. Partly because a lot of gang violence means a lot of trauma, and a lot more opportunity for things like curb stomping.

It may be that the curb stomp is a rarity outside of some certain areas or culture groups. In the cases my Dr. friend treated, he said they were all gang related “jump outs” meaning the injury was a specific punishment for leaving the gang they were in. As far as fish hooking, he said he has never seen that injury in over 35 years of being an emergency room Dr.

Nope. Neither have I.

after giving some thought about why i would not allow fish hooking in a rule set i create, beyond 'thats just how everyone else has done it' here are the reasons I have come up with.

I call that "cultural inertia"; "we do it that way because we've always done it that way". Cultural inertia can be a problem in many fields. And I think you're right about that being the prime motivator in this case.

"Experts in what exactly"?

Combat sports. I keep saying that, don't I? There isn't a single one that allows it, but your logic is that's really because...why?

Right, but what makes you think people they are experts in the trauma purportedly attributed to fish hooking? Because there doesn't appear to be any actual evidence to support that belief.

As of now you and others are playing devil's advocate, it's kind of obvious.

Not at all. We are unable to find any evidence that your claim is correct. Zip. Zero. Zilch. Nada.
And we are asking you to provide some. You have not. You have backpedaled. You have moved the goal posts. You have made demonstrably false statements.

Your reliance on Truth by Blatant Assertion, Appeal to Authority, and flat out BS is not making your argument more credible.

And the whole arguing from ignorance (where's the evidence) is kinda backwards.

Arguing from ignorance is what you call making claims without any supporting evidence and then making up evidence.

How you gonna find data on a banned technique that was banned because of injury?

The same place you find data on knife wounds and other non-sporting methods of ending fighting.

That data is in the same place as baseball bats to the head data.

Oh, that's easy then.

Blunt Head Trauma (Archived) - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

Experimental Study of Cranial Injuries Due to Blunt Force Trauma: Sus scrofa domestica Model

Cranial blunt force trauma is of major concern in forensic sciences. The aim of this study is to shed light on cranial bone trauma caused by blunt weapons from an experimental perspective. The experimentation involved the production of blunt injuries to 21 pig skulls with different objects...

juniperpublishers.com

Forensic investigation of cranial injuries due to blunt force trauma: | RRFMS

Forensic investigation of cranial injuries due to blunt force trauma: current best practice Elena F Kranioti,1,2 1Department of Forensic Sciences, Faculty of Medicine, University of Crete, Heraklion, Crete, Greece; 2Edinburgh Unit of Forensic Anthropology, School of History, Classics and...

www.dovepress.com

Forensic Autopsy of Blunt Force Trauma: Overview, Definitions, Scene Findings

Deaths resulting from blunt force trauma are some of the most common cases encountered by the practicing forensic pathologist. Whereas other forms of traumatic death (eg, gunshot wounds, sharp force injuries) occur under a relatively limited number of circumstances, deaths resulting from blunt...

emedicine.medscape.com

HEAD INJURY CASE WITH BLUNT FORCE TRAUMATIC: CASE REPORT

scholar.unair.ac.id

Depressed skull fracture following a baseball bat strike to the h

..

www.openaccessjournals.com

The baseball bat: a popular mechanism of urban injury - PubMed

From January 1989 through December 1990, 74 patients were admitted to our urban level I trauma center with injuries inflicted by baseball bats. We investigated the demographics and dynamics of injury in these patients by retrospective analysis of the patient's medical record and Trauma Registry...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Blunt force impact to the head using a teeball bat: systematic comparison of physical and finite element modeling - PubMed

Blunt head trauma secondary to violent actions with various weapons is frequently a cause of injury in forensic casework; differing striking tools have varying degrees of injury capacity. The systematic approach used to examine a 19-year-old student who was beaten with a wooden teeball bat will...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://www.walshmedicalmedia.com/open-access/biomechanical-examination-of-blunt-trauma-due-to-baseball-bat-blows-to-the-head-2090-2697-2-108.pdf

Skull Fracture and Brain Contusion in a Baseball Player: A Case Report

"Skull Fracture and Brain Contusion in a Baseball Player: A Case Report" published on Jan 2009 by Human Kinetics, Inc..

journals.humankinetics.com

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/237260934_Skull_Fracture_and_Brain_Contusion_in_a_Baseball_Player_A_Case_Report

Europe PMC

Europe PMC is an archive of life sciences journal literature.

europepmc.org

Neurotransmitter and Cell Death (Section 4, Chapter 12) Neuroscience Online: An Electronic Textbook for the Neurosciences | Department of Neurobiology and Anatomy - The University of Texas Medical School at Houston

Baseball bat assault injuries - PubMed

The baseball bat, according to Baltimore City police crime statistics, is a commonly used weapon. To assess the severity of injuries inflicted by this modern-day club, we retrospectively reviewed 75 charts of patients treated at the University of Maryland Medical Systems Hospital for baseball...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Baseball bat injuries to the maxillofacial region caused by assault - PubMed

Assaults with a baseball bat can result in significant morbidity and even mortality.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

BASEBALL BAT ASSAULT INJURIES : Journal of Trauma and Acute Care Surgery

injuries from January 1990 through July 1991. Multisystem trauma was documented, with craniocerebral injury being the most frequent and the most frequent cause of death. Of the victims struck on the head, 26% sustained an intracranial hemorrhage. In our series, the history of loss of...

journals.lww.com

The baseball bat: a modern day cudgel | Emergency Medicine Journal

BASEBALL BAT ASSAULT INJURIES : Journal of Trauma and Acute Care Surgery

injuries from January 1990 through July 1991. Multisystem trauma was documented, with craniocerebral injury being the most frequent and the most frequent cause of death. Of the victims struck on the head, 26% sustained an intracranial hemorrhage. In our series, the history of loss of...

journals.lww.com

2023 ICD-10-CM Diagnosis Code Y08.02XS: Assault by strike by baseball bat, sequela

ICD 10 code for Assault by strike by baseball bat, sequela. Get free rules, notes, crosswalks, synonyms, history for ICD-10 code Y08.02XS.

www.icd10data.com

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233521247_Baseball_bats_a_silent_weapon

I doubt it was a baseball bat 33,000 years ago, but blunt force is blunt force. I doubt Ogg hitting Erg with an ox femur is significantly different to John smacking Bob with a bat.

Study concludes 33,000-year-old skull shows signs of blunt-force trauma

The killer was probably left-handed and used a club to administer the fatal blow.

arstechnica.com

This is what is meant by "well documented in trauma medicine", by the way. Just in case you weren't clear about what that phrase meant when you claimed it to be true of fish hooking injuries.

So yet another demonstrably false claim. The data on fish hooking injuries is CLEARLY not "in the same place as baseball bats to the head data", because if it was, I could find it.

It's like you are second guessing the entire combat sports community with nothing but theory and speculation. Weird.

It's like you're making crap up as you go along to support an untenable position. Weird.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Oh well.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

"Experts in what exactly"?

Combat sports. I keep saying that, don't I? There isn't a single one that allows it, but your logic is that's really because...why?

As of now you and others are playing devil's advocate, it's kind of obvious.

And the whole arguing from ignorance (where's the evidence) is kinda backwards. How you gonna find data on a banned technique that was banned because of injury? That data is in the same place as baseball bats to the head data.

It's like you are second guessing the entire combat sports community with nothing but theory and speculation. Weird.

I love to question the whole combat sports industry, it’s fun. I don’t really have a dog in this fight, but I might be stirring the pot a bit to see what surfaces.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

If you look over the history of illegal fishhooks in wrestling and MMA you'll see there's little chance of bitten fingers (since some fish hooking controls the jaw preventing biting, others avoid the teeth line entirely).

And of course, fish hooks give competition advantages, too. Wrestling 101. I already posted a video of that. Dude wins using a fishhook, other dude was so angry he punched the fish hooker.

Honestly, this entire derail has gotten dumb. Now I'm being demanded to prove why headbutts are illegal in MMA but not Lethwei?

Whatever guys. You do you.

Oh I’m not demanding anything. I really have no grounds to dispute what you say here. I’m actually interested but just being my jackass self.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I do think it's mostly a thing in metropolitan areas, especially those with a lot of gangs. Partly because a lot of gang violence means a lot of trauma, and a lot more opportunity for things like curb stomping.

Nope. Neither have I.

I call that "cultural inertia"; "we do it that way because we've always done it that way". Cultural inertia can be a problem in many fields. And I think you're right about that being the prime motivator in this case.


Right, but what makes you think people they are experts in the trauma purportedly attributed to fish hooking? Because there doesn't appear to be any actual evidence to support that belief.

Not at all. We are unable to find any evidence that your claim is correct. Zip. Zero. Zilch. Nada.
And we are asking you to provide some. You have not. You have backpedaled. You have moved the goal posts. You have made demonstrably false statements.

Your reliance on Truth by Blatant Assertion, Appeal to Authority, and flat out BS is not making your argument more credible.

Arguing from ignorance is what you call making claims without any supporting evidence and then making up evidence.

The same place you find data on knife wounds and other non-sporting methods of ending fighting.

Oh, that's easy then.

Blunt Head Trauma (Archived) - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

Experimental Study of Cranial Injuries Due to Blunt Force Trauma: Sus scrofa domestica Model

Cranial blunt force trauma is of major concern in forensic sciences. The aim of this study is to shed light on cranial bone trauma caused by blunt weapons from an experimental perspective. The experimentation involved the production of blunt injuries to 21 pig skulls with different objects...

juniperpublishers.com

Forensic investigation of cranial injuries due to blunt force trauma: | RRFMS

Forensic investigation of cranial injuries due to blunt force trauma: current best practice Elena F Kranioti,1,2 1Department of Forensic Sciences, Faculty of Medicine, University of Crete, Heraklion, Crete, Greece; 2Edinburgh Unit of Forensic Anthropology, School of History, Classics and...

www.dovepress.com

Forensic Autopsy of Blunt Force Trauma: Overview, Definitions, Scene Findings

Deaths resulting from blunt force trauma are some of the most common cases encountered by the practicing forensic pathologist. Whereas other forms of traumatic death (eg, gunshot wounds, sharp force injuries) occur under a relatively limited number of circumstances, deaths resulting from blunt...

emedicine.medscape.com

HEAD INJURY CASE WITH BLUNT FORCE TRAUMATIC: CASE REPORT

scholar.unair.ac.id

Depressed skull fracture following a baseball bat strike to the h

..

www.openaccessjournals.com

The baseball bat: a popular mechanism of urban injury - PubMed

From January 1989 through December 1990, 74 patients were admitted to our urban level I trauma center with injuries inflicted by baseball bats. We investigated the demographics and dynamics of injury in these patients by retrospective analysis of the patient's medical record and Trauma Registry...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Blunt force impact to the head using a teeball bat: systematic comparison of physical and finite element modeling - PubMed

Blunt head trauma secondary to violent actions with various weapons is frequently a cause of injury in forensic casework; differing striking tools have varying degrees of injury capacity. The systematic approach used to examine a 19-year-old student who was beaten with a wooden teeball bat will...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://www.walshmedicalmedia.com/open-access/biomechanical-examination-of-blunt-trauma-due-to-baseball-bat-blows-to-the-head-2090-2697-2-108.pdf

Skull Fracture and Brain Contusion in a Baseball Player: A Case Report

"Skull Fracture and Brain Contusion in a Baseball Player: A Case Report" published on Jan 2009 by Human Kinetics, Inc..

journals.humankinetics.com

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/237260934_Skull_Fracture_and_Brain_Contusion_in_a_Baseball_Player_A_Case_Report

Europe PMC

Europe PMC is an archive of life sciences journal literature.

europepmc.org

Neurotransmitter and Cell Death (Section 4, Chapter 12) Neuroscience Online: An Electronic Textbook for the Neurosciences | Department of Neurobiology and Anatomy - The University of Texas Medical School at Houston

Baseball bat assault injuries - PubMed

The baseball bat, according to Baltimore City police crime statistics, is a commonly used weapon. To assess the severity of injuries inflicted by this modern-day club, we retrospectively reviewed 75 charts of patients treated at the University of Maryland Medical Systems Hospital for baseball...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Baseball bat injuries to the maxillofacial region caused by assault - PubMed

Assaults with a baseball bat can result in significant morbidity and even mortality.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

BASEBALL BAT ASSAULT INJURIES : Journal of Trauma and Acute Care Surgery

injuries from January 1990 through July 1991. Multisystem trauma was documented, with craniocerebral injury being the most frequent and the most frequent cause of death. Of the victims struck on the head, 26% sustained an intracranial hemorrhage. In our series, the history of loss of...

journals.lww.com

The baseball bat: a modern day cudgel | Emergency Medicine Journal

BASEBALL BAT ASSAULT INJURIES : Journal of Trauma and Acute Care Surgery

injuries from January 1990 through July 1991. Multisystem trauma was documented, with craniocerebral injury being the most frequent and the most frequent cause of death. Of the victims struck on the head, 26% sustained an intracranial hemorrhage. In our series, the history of loss of...

journals.lww.com

2023 ICD-10-CM Diagnosis Code Y08.02XS: Assault by strike by baseball bat, sequela

ICD 10 code for Assault by strike by baseball bat, sequela. Get free rules, notes, crosswalks, synonyms, history for ICD-10 code Y08.02XS.

www.icd10data.com

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233521247_Baseball_bats_a_silent_weapon

I doubt it was a baseball bat 33,000 years ago, but blunt force is blunt force. I doubt Ogg hitting Erg with an ox femur is significantly different to John smacking Bob with a bat.

Study concludes 33,000-year-old skull shows signs of blunt-force trauma

The killer was probably left-handed and used a club to administer the fatal blow.

arstechnica.com

This is what is meant by "well documented in trauma medicine", by the way. Just in case you weren't clear about what that phrase meant when you claimed it to be true of fish hooking injuries.

So yet another demonstrably false claim. The data on fish hooking injuries is CLEARLY not "in the same place as baseball bats to the head data", because if it was, I could find it.


It's like you're making crap up as you go along to support an untenable position. Weird.

There’s an ICD 10 code for it?! I can hardly believe it. Wait, is there an ICD 10 code for fish hooking? I know a couple of max/face surgeons I should have asked about this earlier.

 

[drop bear]

He DID provide proof. Even "google" fish hooking and when it describes it, it says that it is banned from combat sports because of its dangerous nature and high probability of injury.

Not sure what else could be provided. What would YOU actually accept as proof for the reason fish hooking is banned?

It is also pretty icky. Oil checks are not exactly lethal. But I don't think they are acceptable in most competitions.

 

[Dirty Dog]

There’s an ICD 10 code for it?! I can hardly believe it. Wait, is there an ICD 10 code for fish hooking? I know a couple of max/face surgeons I should have asked about this earlier.

No, there is not. Which is telling, I think. I mean, something that is "well documented in trauma medicine" would have an ICD 10 code.

It is also pretty icky. Oil checks are not exactly lethal. But I don't think they are acceptable in most competitions.

Unless the competition involves plastic sheets and canola oil, right?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

No, there is not. Which is telling, I think. I mean, something that is "well documented in trauma medicine" would have an ICD 10 code.

Unless the competition involves plastic sheets and canola oil, right?

Lol! To the victor go the spoils…

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

No, there is not. Which is telling, I think. I mean, something that is "well documented in trauma medicine" would have an ICD 10 code.

Unless the competition involves plastic sheets and canola oil, right?

I mean soils…

 

[GojuTommy]

I love to question the whole combat sports industry, it’s fun. I don’t really have a dog in this fight, but I might be stirring the pot a bit to see what surfaces.

I think that’s what we call trolling lol

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I think that’s what we call trolling lol

Trolling as in fishing for something good.

 

[GojuTommy]

So I think we can sum things up as ‘there’s a lot of myths about techniques banned in sports’

A lot of them seem to pose only a minor danger if the person doing them does not have a dominant position, while posing a much serious threat though how serious is up for serious debate, if the person doing them has a dominant position.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

So I think we can sum things up as ‘there’s a lot of myths about techniques banned in sports’

A lot of them seem to pose only a minor danger if the person doing them does not have a dominant position, while posing a much serious threat though how serious is up for serious debate, if the person doing them has a dominant position.

Well if I am in the dominant position when I oil check, it’s not nearly as dangerous as it would be without the canola oil and plastic sheets.

 

[Steve]

Just to throw out a different point of view, while it's true that some rules are made for safety, there are reasons other than safety that rules are made in combat sports. Sometimes, it's just about what will make the sport more enjoyable to watch or in which to participate. If fish hooking were legal in MMA, would that make the sport more enjoyable and accessible to the average member of the public or less? Optics are involved. Marketability is involved. Safety, too... but just one of several considerations.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

So I think we can sum things up as ‘there’s a lot of myths about techniques banned in sports’

A lot of them seem to pose only a minor danger if the person doing them does not have a dominant position, while posing a much serious threat though how serious is up for serious debate, if the person doing them has a dominant position.

We could debate the match by watching the tape after.