Watered Down Martial Arts

[Daniel Sullivan]

To all of you who got your noses out of joint when I said that DJinx had a valid point in his thread about non-TKDists thrashing on the art:

Posts like this:

I mean no disrespect to anyone with my following observation:

Traditional TKD and JUDO are two styles which have been watered down by taking away and eliminating some of the techniqes that made them so effective in the first place... and it was done to make them Olympic sports. Olympic TKD is a joke, more of a dance than a M/A style - and - JUDO, although to a far lesser extent, has eliminated many chokes (guillotine and all other reverse chokes), shoulder locks, leg locks and even some throwing techniques. BLAH!

Do you agree with the watering down of Martial Arts that were originally founded, taught and trained to be used in war - to injure and kill others - just to make it an Olympic sport?

I do realize that there is a difference between sport and the original motive of Martial Arts training, but why take away so much stuff that actually works in real life?

Perhaps they should do away with the Olympic games instead. What do you think?

are why I said that he had a valid point.

While this is in the general arts section, the OP picked out taekwondo specifically (along with judo). And if you read through the thread, and catch that the OP has changed his username since posting this, you will see that he knows nothing about the art and admits as much.

Which brings me back to... I think DJinx has a valid point, and people who post things like this are the "masses" that he was addressing.

 

[Balrog]

Ok, let me address this part of his post:

Do you agree with the watering down of Martial Arts that were originally founded, taught and trained to be used in war - to injure and kill others - just to make it an Olympic sport?

I do realize that there is a difference between sport and the original motive of Martial Arts training, but why take away so much stuff that actually works in real life?

What has been "taken away that actually works in real life"? Do we train with nothing but things that don't work? I don't think so.

For example: a well placed side kick that blows out an attacker's knee and puts him down on the ground is just as effective in a parking lot as it is on a battlefield. And the confidence and knowledge of when and how to use that kick does not come from training with stuff that doesn't work.

Yes, rules about contact (or lack thereof) are present in the sport sparring aspect of Taekwondo. They have to be, for obvious reasons. But does that mean that schools don't have heavy bags or Redman suits where students can practice full power techniques, yet not injure a fellow student?

Saying that TKD and Judo are watered-down and useless is painting with a very broad brush, and usually, those kind of brush strokes are way off target.

 

[Denoaikido]

I see a lot of people don't even like taekwondo ,but to me it's pretty effective when trained right even the sport version is pretty good because they still pressure test and spar even though they don't hit to the face I mean BJJ guys just wrestle and do submissions and we call that better than actually start from standing up sparring the fight in a real fight starts on the feet .... How many guys are going to pull guard and do a omanari roll or drop down for leg lock sure it may work but most tkd teaches pretty good fundamentals for self defense and they teach hits to the face just not many schools pressure test hits to the face just like bjj doesn't practices strikes many arts are watered down one could say but I just think ppl learned in order to keep healthy students you have to there for train safety but also even MMA got watered down with all it's rule sets and that's what ussally waters most arts down is the rule factors of competition and how ppl train according to them

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I see a lot of people don't even like taekwondo ,but to me it's pretty effective when trained right even the sport version is pretty good because they still pressure test and spar even though they don't hit to the face

I agree.

I mean BJJ guys just wrestle and do submissions and we call that better than actually start from standing up sparring the fight in a real fight starts on the feet .... How many guys are going to pull guard and do a omanari roll or drop down for leg lock sure it may work

Not sure if you are aware, but BJJ sport starts in standup, and when trained most places train standup as well.

but most tkd teaches pretty good fundamentals for self defense and they teach hits to the face just not many schools pressure test hits to the face just like bjj doesn't practices strikes many arts are watered down one could say but I just think ppl learned in order to keep healthy students you have to there for train safety

While I don't disagree with this per se, i do want to point out that both are flawed if your goal is to teach complete self-defense with just that, by your logic. If BJJ not practicing strikes is an issue, then TKD (mostly) not doing randori or rolling is also an issue. Both of which can be done safely.

but also even MMA got watered down with all it's rule sets and that's what ussally waters most arts down is the rule factors of competition and how ppl train according to them

Which rules exactly do you think have watered down MMA? And watered down compared to what?

 

[Denoaikido]

I agree.

Not sure if you are aware, but BJJ sport starts in standup, and when trained most places train standup as well.

While I don't disagree with this per se, i do want to point out that both are flawed if your goal is to teach complete self-defense with just that, by your logic. If BJJ not practicing strikes is an issue, then TKD (mostly) not doing randori or rolling is also an issue. Both of which can be done safely.

Which rules exactly do you think have watered down MMA? And watered down compared to what?

If you're asking me three arts I just said are watered down in most gyms so MMA you can't kick people a lot of times when they're down and ufc anyways no 12 to 6 elbows no headbuts no fish hooks no you know there's a lot of rules and any kind of sport that comes from martial arts is like this now weather that's how you train well? But most bjj places train starting on there knees now,the first UFC's those were the best to watch it was style verse style and barely any rules at all watch some of them old ufcs those are fun to watch but basically every sport has to have rules for the safety of the combatants and a lot of schools that's their same philosophy to keep students they have to have safe training

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

But most bjj places train starting on there knees now,

Where do you get that from? Some bjj places do this I'm sure, but my experience is it's not the norm.

the first UFC's those were the best to watch it was style verse style and barely any rules at all watch some of them old ufcs those are fun to watch but basically every sport has to have rules for the safety of the combatants and a lot of schools that's their same philosophy to keep students they have to have safe training

I'd argue that those rules actually prevent it from being watered down. Without those rules, there's no way to train with resistance, and you get people who learn stuff and never learn how to apply it.
*Note, with the above, I'm referring to MMA as a style, not UFC specific competitions. The competitions I agreed were made to be more regulated, mostly so that they were not banned from the US.

 

[Steve]

When I saw the title to this thread pop back up, I thought at first it was about hydration.

 

[drop bear]

Which rules exactly do you think have watered down MMA? And watered down compared to what?

Watered down from NHB and Vale tudo.

 

[Steve]

Watered down from NHB and Vale tudo.

And pankration, I hear.

 

[Denoaikido]

Watered down from NHB and Vale tudo.

Agreed

 

[Denoaikido]

Agreed

This also makes school gyms clubs train towards the rules esp if they are competing

 

[Steve]

For what it's worth, I'd rather train in a sport that is "watered down" but applies skills in some context than a style that purports to be complete but doesn't apply skills in any context.

It's relatively easy to build on competition without crosstraining (though that's also a viable way to go), even if that competition is restrictive. For example, if you're a watered down TKD guy looking to be more well rounded, you could expand your skill set by training for and competing in any number of full contact venues.

If you're a judoka looking to expand your skill set, you could test your judo skills in BJJ tournaments. You could try no-gi tournaments. You could find an MMA open mat to attend.

The issue isn't any one style or any one ruleset. It's over specialization that causes issues.

Even if someone is hyper specialized, like a Ryan Hall, you can choose to test yourself outside of your specialization and round out those skills.

But if you don't ever test your skills or apply them outside of training, you aren't even getting to square one. That to me is watered down, regardless of the curriculum.

 

[tkdroamer]

For what it's worth, I'd rather train in a sport that is "watered down" but applies skills in some context than a style that purports to be complete but doesn't apply skills in any context.

It's relatively easy to build on competition without crosstraining (though that's also a viable way to go), even if that competition is restrictive. For example, if you're a watered down TKD guy looking to be more well rounded, you could expand your skill set by training for and competing in any number of full contact venues.

If you're a judoka looking to expand your skill set, you could test your judo skills in BJJ tournaments. You could try no-gi tournaments. You could find an MMA open mat to attend.

The issue isn't any one style or any one ruleset. It's over specialization that causes issues.

Even if someone is hyper specialized, like a Ryan Hall, you can choose to test yourself outside of your specialization and round out those skills.

But if you don't ever test your skills or apply them outside of training, you aren't even getting to square one. That to me is watered down, regardless of the curriculum.

The issue isn't any one style or any one ruleset. It's over specialization that causes issues.

Nail on the head.

 

[_Simon_]

When I saw the title to this thread pop back up, I thought at first it was about hydration.

@Dirty Dog has a vid on him doing watered down martial arts. But strangely, it was pretty deep too!

 

[Bill Mattocks]

These are the threads I never truly understand. I train. The style I train in happens to be Isshinryu. Is it 'traditional'? It is 'watered down'? Is it 'valueless' or 'not effective on the street'? I don't know. I don't really care. That's not why I train.

And this tends to upset folks too. How could I not care if my art is useful in the octagon? How could I not care if my art doesn't give me all the awesome self-defense moves? How dare I train in something for the joy of training and NOT because I want to be a champion of this or that, or a serious street-level badass?

I couldn't tell you, my friends. I like Isshinryu. You can think it's great, you can think it sucks. You can think it doesn't work on the street. You can think it won't work in the octagon. Fine with me. Do you know how much it affects my daily life what you think of my or any art? Not at all, that's how much.

Week after week, I go to the dojo and see my dojo family, my dear friends. We work out together. We practice what we were taught, trying to adhere to the way the founder taught it. And that's all.

And I don't understand why that's not enough. I don't WANT to compete. I don't WANT to be an MMA champion. I don't plan to get into situations where I have to kill six guys who are armed with pythons and deadly blow guns in a dark alley while disguised as nuns. I trust that my skills will assist me if I need them outside the dojo. And that is entirely good enough for me.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Amen Bill.

This is such a dead horse. Undead, even, it keeps coming back.

This is yet again the failure of the dualistic "works/doesn't work".

Like everything in nature there is a spectrum from "works in class against no resistance" to "you just got KTFO". Competitors train towards that end of the spectrum, but many more in the other direction or just end up in the middle..

And that's fine for the most part ...gosh how many kids will learn some karate or TKD and then just move on to things like football and lacrosse or wrestling...and that's great. Even if they claim they're teaching deadly hand to hand but no students spar or compete...who cares? Let them go be braggadocios.

When people who train full contact start to laugh at or dismiss everyone else, it kinda shows not that things like MMA are bad, but it shows those people just don't have the brainpower to understand why a middle aged guy might pick their butt up and get into a cardio kickboxing class, any Ryu that doesn't push hard kumite, etc.

People should train how they want, and if they get a chip on their shoulder from a karate black belt with no sparring and start some beef, nature will work its magic.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

People should train how they want, and if they get a chip on their shoulder from a karate black belt with no sparring and start some beef, nature will work its magic.

And sometimes young fit killers find out that old men are too tired and sore to be fancy, so we just rupture eardrums, gouge eyes, wreck knee or ankle joints, kick snarglies, and go home to watch Wheel of Fortune.

 

[Steve]

And sometimes young fit killers find out that old men are too tired and sore to be fancy, so we just rupture eardrums, gouge eyes, wreck knee or ankle joints, kick snarglies, and go home to watch Wheel of Fortune.

You've done those things? Brutal.

 

[harlan]

Am aside...is there an old folks room here abouts? Cause I'd love to sit and listen to some of your yarns. LOL.

Just passing through and enjoyed the posts. Happy thanksgiving! Nice to see some of you old timers still kicking butt.

 

[drop bear]

These are the threads I never truly understand. I train. The style I train in happens to be Isshinryu. Is it 'traditional'? It is 'watered down'? Is it 'valueless' or 'not effective on the street'? I don't know. I don't really care. That's not why I train.

And this tends to upset folks too. How could I not care if my art is useful in the octagon? How could I not care if my art doesn't give me all the awesome self-defense moves? How dare I train in something for the joy of training and NOT because I want to be a champion of this or that, or a serious street-level badass?

I couldn't tell you, my friends. I like Isshinryu. You can think it's great, you can think it sucks. You can think it doesn't work on the street. You can think it won't work in the octagon. Fine with me. Do you know how much it affects my daily life what you think of my or any art? Not at all, that's how much.

Week after week, I go to the dojo and see my dojo family, my dear friends. We work out together. We practice what we were taught, trying to adhere to the way the founder taught it. And that's all.

And I don't understand why that's not enough. I don't WANT to compete. I don't WANT to be an MMA champion. I don't plan to get into situations where I have to kill six guys who are armed with pythons and deadly blow guns in a dark alley while disguised as nuns. I trust that my skills will assist me if I need them outside the dojo. And that is entirely good enough for me.

Active ignoring isn't ignoring. It is making a statement.