Wado Ryu Questions

[Sojobo]

Still impossible to answer.

I'm not trying to be evasive here but, as previously explained, the jujutsu that we do in Wado is not typical to gendai jujutsu.

For example, take a look at the videos I posted. What percentage of those would you classify as containing Locks, holds sweeps and throws etc?

And then some weeks greater focus is made on pair work than others.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

For example, take a look at the videos I posted. What percentage of those would you classify as containing Locks, holds sweeps and throws etc?

1st video: about 25% of the kata contained at least a bit of grappling. Some of the others ended up with an entry which could be used to start close range grappling or close range striking, but no grappling is actually performed.

2nd video: 3 of the 10 kata contain unambiguous grappling. Another 5 end with an entry that sets up the angle and most of the position for a simple throw or sweep, but the throw or sweep is never performed and the position is never finalized. If the practitioners drill the actual completion of the throws at some other point in their training, I'll give those 5 half-credit.

3rd video: All of these moves contain grappling.

And then some weeks greater focus is made on pair work than others.

That's why I asked for a general sense of the average time spent over the course of years.

 

[Sojobo]

Again, depends on grade and ability.

In our seniors club for example (most of which are Dan grades), I would say about 20-30% of the average keiko was taken up with training such pair work.

[Edit] but to give the OP some comfort, as I have said, Wado is a progressional thing. I doubt he'd be exposed to any of the posted techniques for several years.

Most clubs have their own "bridging" pair work to get their students ready - these aren't however formal Wado kata

 

[Sojobo]

1st video: about 25% of the kata contained at least a bit of grappling. Some of the others ended up with an entry which could be used to start close range grappling or close range striking, but no grappling is actually performed.

2nd video: 3 of the 10 kata contain unambiguous grappling. Another 5 end with an entry that sets up the angle and most of the position for a simple throw or sweep, but the throw or sweep is never performed and the position is never finalized. If the practitioners drill the actual completion of the throws at some other point in their training, I'll give those 5 half-credit.

3rd video: All of these moves contain grappling.

And of course, looking beyond grappling, what these kata also teach is stuff like kuzushi, atemi waza and nage-waza etc.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

And of course, looking beyond grappling, what these kata also teach is stuff like kuzushi, atemi waza and nage-waza etc.

I'd count kuzushi and nage-waza as part of grappling.

 

[Sojobo]

Along with atemi - kuzushi and nage waza make up the lion share of our pair work then.

 

[Curmudgeon]

Still impossible to answer.

I'm not trying to be evasive here but, as previously explained, the jujutsu that we do in Wado is not typical to gendai jujutsu.

For example, take a look at the videos I posted. What percentage of those would you classify as containing Locks, holds sweeps and throws etc?

And then some weeks greater focus is made on pair work than others.

This is helpful, thank you. Some at the end of the first video. More in the second. And the third video seems like jujitsu to my pre-conception of things. Appreciate you finding those videos, Sojobo.

 

[Tez3]

Tez, we have been here before...

Bunkai is NOT a Wado thing...

Ill PM you something

Please do not PM me as you are mistaken, again, about what I'm talking about, I really don't want to go through a pointless conversation ...again. Whether bunkai is a Wado 'thing' or not is irrelevant, for many of us, we do Bunkai regardless of style. Those of us who do Wado, use the Wado kata as a basis for our bunkai as funnily enough that's the kata we know therefore for us bunkai is a Wado thing. That you don't think like that is of no concern to me frankly. PMs are not welcome.

 

[Sojobo]

Those of us who do Wado, use the Wado kata as a basis for our bunkai as funnily enough that's the kata we know therefore for us bunkai is a Wado thing. That you don't think like that is of no concern to me frankly. PMs are not welcome.

Bunkai may be a thing within YOUR Wado group, but it's wholey inaccurate to make a sweeping generalisation that Bunkai IS therefore a wado thing because it isn't - for the very clear reasons I have stated above.

I went to PM to offer you some further explanation as to why, whilst also trying to avoid derailing this thread. It is of course down to you whether you want to read any of it.

Only trying to help in a way of Peace and Harmony

 

[Sojobo]

This is helpful, thank you. Some at the end of the first video. More in the second. And the third video seems like jujitsu to my pre-conception of things. Appreciate you finding those videos, Sojobo.

No problem, however as explained, these techniques do not tend to practiced (or at least start to be practiced) until the student has been training for a number of years.

You mustn't think that just because your group doesn't teach you these yet, it means you probably aren't in a decent Wado school.

Have you seen any of the seniors in your class practicing pair-work similar to this?

 

[Tez3]

Bunkai may be a thing within YOUR Wado group, but it's wholey inaccurate to make a sweeping generalisation that Bunkai IS therefore a wado thing because it isn't - for the very clear reasons I have stated above.

I went to PM to offer you some further explanation as to why, whilst also trying to avoid derailing this thread. It is of course down to you whether you want to read any of it.

Only trying to help in a way of Peace and Harmony

It's equally wrong to make sweeping statements that it's not now a part of many Wado karateka's training not just my 'group' as you call it. I know many Wado people around the world who practise bunkai. The thing is, I've never said that bunkai is an integral part of Wado, you have assumed that I said it. I have said Iain's work is based on Wado kata, which it is as like us that was the kata's he knew, you said he utilises the kata from Wado...we have said exactly the same thing except you chose to think I meant something else. Semantics.

 

[Cirdan]

Hmm ... unless I'm misinterpreting, it seems like there are some differing answers from the Wado Ryu practitioners in the thread.

Just to clarify, can the Wado folks here explicitly spell out on average what percentage of class time you would typically spend on drilling grappling techniques (throws, sweeps, locks, etc) with a partner? Does that change at different belt levels?

Hard to pin down the exact percentage, and I think this varies a lot from school to school.
Grabbing your partner and unbalancing/maintaining a superior position is important at all levels.
Throws sweeps and locks are here and there in the pairs work but it does not become a major part until around brown belt level.

 

[Sojobo]

It's equally wrong to make sweeping statements that it's not now a part of many Wado karateka's training not just my 'group' as you call it. I know many Wado people around the world who practise bunkai.

You have misunderstood me Tez,

I am well aware that Bunkai is practiced amongst some Wado groups, and that's their prerogative, but a whole different ball park. The system set up by Otsuka never included the Bunkai approach (for reasons I have explained).

So it's a "bolt-on" that has been adopted by some groups, but that in itself doesn't justify suggesting that it could/should therefore be considered a Wado thing.

The thing is, I've never said that bunkai is an integral part of Wado, you have assumed that I said it

Well, you pretty much alluded to it here...

Sometimes it's easier for instructors to teach kata and just that sadly. Have you seen any of Iain Abernethy's work, his original style was Wado ( he's also a Judoka) and his Bunkai work is based on Wado.

Thing is, this thread is about a person new to Wado, trying to establish whether his/her group is offering quality Wado instruction in the correct manner.

From what I'm reading from his posts, they are concentrating on making sure he learns good quality basics and kata to an almost perfectionist level.

Provided of course he is being taught it properly (and neither of us knows that without being there ) - I feel that this is far more valuable (from a Wado perspective anyway) than suggesting he look and or compare it with what may be offered along the Bunkai path.

 

[Tez3]

You saw a connection that wasn't there. I didn't allude to it, I asked a question because many people see kata as pointless, as you pointed out (I didn't miss it btw) the OP is a beginner, perhaps a wider view of kata would be more beneficial than a lecture about the purity of Wado Ryu.
I think perhaps less focus on pointing out to me my sins and more focus on the OP would be beneficial. I know you have a bee in your bonnet about kata, bunkai and Wado being in the same sentence but it has nothing to do with the OP's question.

 

[Sojobo]

You saw a connection that wasn't there. I didn't allude to it, I asked a question because many people see kata as pointless, as you pointed out (I didn't miss it btw) the OP is a beginner, perhaps a wider view of kata would be more beneficial than a lecture about the purity of Wado Ryu.
I think perhaps less focus on pointing out to me my sins and more focus on the OP would be beneficial. I know you have a bee in your bonnet about kata, bunkai and Wado being in the same sentence but it has nothing to do with the OP's question.

Tez,

I've clearly rattled your cage, but frankly, I'm not interested in pointing out your sins. I have too many of my own to cope with



.

 

[Tez3]

Tez,

I've clearly rattled your cage, but frankly, I'm not interested in pointing out your sins. I have too many of my own to cope with



.

Cage not rattled at all but the OP is a beginner so I was keeping things simple, a look at bunkai does no harm.

 

[Sojobo]

a look at bunkai does no harm.

From a Wado perspective, I actually think it does, but clearly we are not going have any sort of meeting of the minds here.

Back to trying to help the OP - what are your thoughts on the pair work kata I posted?

 

[Cirdan]

To the OP, Wado is a technique nazi style. The perfection of stances and execution of technique in dynamic movement. This is not about performance, it is about structure, speed, conservation of energy, delivery, rooting and power. It is raw physics married to body mechanics.

I also questioned if this was the right art for me in the beginning. after doing some research on wado as well as other styles and arts I realized it could (and indeed would) be an extremely rewarding style to study and study hard. However I also eventually got into some other arts where I could get to spar a bit more, getting the best of both worlds.

 

[Sojobo]

It is raw physics married to body mechanics.

Oh I like that!

 

[Tez3]

From a Wado perspective, I actually think it does, but clearly we are not going have any sort of meeting of the minds here.

Back to trying to help the OP - what are your thoughts on the pair work kata I posted?

Not from a Wado perspective, from your perspective. All stylists should be open to ideas, as Cirdan says, you can have the best of both world studying other things as well.