Wado-Ryu vs Shotokan vs TKD

[Tez3]

I *think* we both know that - I believe We were more discussing an aspect of that point. Or, that was My take on it, anyway.

It's that rising inflection again.......always sounds like a question roflmao.

 

[Cyriacus]

It's that rising inflection again.......always sounds like a question roflmao.

Well, at least it isnt some kind of weird Rising Inception.

 

[Grenadier]

There's a right way to allow decent contact, and a wrong way.

Doing it the right way will encourage your students to keep their techniques sharp, while also making them realize that punching the air isn't the same thing as punching a solid target.

A trained Karate-ka should have reasonably good conditioning, and should be able to take a decent blow to the body. At the same time, he should be able to apply such a blow with enough focus, power, and accuracy, that would cause enough damage to be effective. However, this does NOT mean that he should swing away. If it means stopping the impact at the surface, then so be it. It doesn't take any more skill to extend that punch another 5-6 inches, and if the Karate-ka wants to train to hit a solid target to get used to it, then there are always heavy bags that can be mounted against a wall, as to not allow any swing to them.

Even in full contact Karate schools, such as Oyama Shihan's Kyokushin Kai dojo, they'll certainly spar with full contact to the body, but will not make impacts on the head.

Why?

Simply put, it takes no real extra skill to apply that same vigorous punch to someone's head. For the most part, you can't condition your head to get tougher (without sacrificing your brain cells), and a vigorous punch that normally lands to the body can easily be applied to the head, and with results that are just fine. This is an assumption that is actually a safe one to make.

I applaud Oyama Shihan for keeping his school a safe place to train, and have a lot of respect for him.

In the end, if you allow all of your students to punch full force to the head of each other, with or without pads, what have you really accomplished? You really haven't increased their skill levels, and probably killed a good number of their brain neurons in the process. Also, some people who get hit there aren't going to want to come back.


On another note...

Doing it the wrong way will simply be another surefire way to kill off your dojo, and close your business. I've seen a MMA school open up a few years ago nearby, and at first, its parking was full of cars on any given night, where they would train in a modified version of Hapkido (calling it "Korean Jiu Jitsu...") and incorporate MMA-style matches on a regular basis. During those bouts, they'd encourage full contact to the head as well.

After about 6 months, I noticed that there were only about half as many cars in the parking lot on any given night, and after a few more months, that number dwindled to even lower numbers, until they closed the school entirely. As it turned out, there were several occasions where the ambulance had to be called in, due to concussions, broken bones, etc.

What did their "anything goes" policy get them? A dead school.

Does this mean that MMA schools are junk? Of course not; just the ones that have a disregard for their students' well-being. Maybe a few individuals came out of the above mentioned school with some more skills, but in the end, it's only going to be that small number of people.

Just because a school does more lighter contact sparring that hard contact sparring, does NOT make it a garbage school or a worthless school that can't fight.

I use a combination of light contact sparring (yet near full speed), as well as regular contact sparring (vigorous application allowed to the body using pads, touch contact to the head), and feel quite comfortable about our students having to defend themselves, since they're done so in the past. They'll hit just as hard as any out there, should the need arise.

 

[dancingalone]

In the end, if you allow all of your students to punch full force to the head of each other, with or without pads, what have you really accomplished? You really haven't increased their skill levels, and probably killed a good number of their brain neurons in the process. Also, some people who get hit there aren't going to want to come back.

I don't think anyone was saying they promoted what you wrote in their schools. Even professional boxers and MMA fighters go light most of the time too or else they would be too injured to compete.

I agree we should train smartly and every drill should be reviewed judiciously for value and fit for the students and their individual goals. Karate should not be mass-produced education even though in modern times it has frequently devolved to that. Wise students should look for teachers who can and will align their training and teaching methodology to the student's respective goals and needs.

 

[Tez3]

What I meant was places that just do the very, very lightest sparring, some even no touch sparring aren't doing their students any favours. It's not a case of going full out, banging to the head every session but of having a nice balance of techniques and giving students the best training you can, this will involve hitting hard at times and being hit hard. I've seen students on seminars spar with people who go harder than just touch, get hit and freeze in panic, that's not what you need to be doing in a self defence situation. Our MMA fighters don't go full on every session, they know they can hit hard when they want to but that's by proper training not training but hitting just into the air and doing no touch sparring.

 

[SPX]

The rules aren't different but the katas are so it makes judging harder if you don't know what moves, stances etc are supposed to be in there, I wouldn't judge TKD patterns although I would 'understand' the gist of what they were doing I wouldn't know if they were the correct moves or whether they'd missed bits out.

Ah, okay, so it sounds like you're referring to kata competition then, not kumite?

Iain Abernethy is Wado Ryu, his Bunkai is amazing as is his fighting skills. Whatever you decide to do I hope you will spend time on Bunkai, it is a very valuable resource, a bit mocked by some but worth doing trust me!
http://iainabernethy.co.uk/article/kata-why-bother

I've actually listened to his podcast a few times. I don't always understand what he's talking about since I'm not familiar with karate kata, but he has some interesting thoughts nonetheless.

 

[SPX]

There is an attempt within competitive karate circuits like the WKF to minimize the differences through 'shitei' or mandatory kata to form an impartial basis for karate-ka of different styles to compete with each other. The WKF shitei kata are standardized ones with 2 each coming out of Shotokan, Goju-ryu, Wado-ryu, and Shito-ryu.

So basically regardless of everyone's native karate style they would need to learn the "approved" version of each kata to compete?

 

[SPX]

Agreed. Thankfully the goal to KEEP traditional karate a viable fighting art is alive and well. If you are training in a place that only does static drills along with light contact stand up sparring, you're probably not learning karate as a fighting system.

Yes, I have noticed that there are practitioners who actually care about keeping karate a legitimate fighting art, though I tend to find them much more on forums like this one instead of in real life (not that this isn't real life, but you know what I mean).

In any case, it seems that it's been a debate that's been raging for a long time, one that actually causes me to wonder how "hardcore" most traditional classes really were. I was looking through a copy of Black Belt recently and they had a timeline of martial arts developments in the 70s.

1975? "Contact karate angers traditionalists who prefer no contact."

 

[dancingalone]

So basically regardless of everyone's native karate style they would need to learn the "approved" version of each kata to compete?

That's my understanding although I am not active in WKF circles. Grenadier could probably tell you more about it if you're interested.

 

[elder999]

Yes, I have noticed that there are practitioners who actually care about keeping karate a legitimate fighting art, though I tend to find them much more on forums like this one instead of in real life (not that this isn't real life, but you know what I mean).

You need to go to a kyokushin or offshoot dojo.

In any case, it seems that it's been a debate that's been raging for a long time, one that actually causes me to wonder how "hardcore" most traditional classes really were. I was looking through a copy of Black Belt recently and they had a timeline of martial arts developments in the 70s.

You're probably too young too have been in a kyokushin dojo in the 60's and 70s's.

1975? "Contact karate angers traditionalists who prefer no contact."

In 1969, Oyama staged The First All-Japan Full Contact Karate Open Championships.

 

[dancingalone]

Yes, I have noticed that there are practitioners who actually care about keeping karate a legitimate fighting art, though I tend to find them much more on forums like this one instead of in real life (not that this isn't real life, but you know what I mean).

Not so unusual in my opinion. There is a lot of unexceptional karate out there. It's not necessarily all the teachers' fault either. I'm not sure there is much of a big market for quality, traditional martial arts training, whether it is karate or hung gar or whatever else. A lot of the 'real' training is physically demanding and yes 'boring'. Most people aren't into that.

In any case, it seems that it's been a debate that's been raging for a long time, one that actually causes me to wonder how "hardcore" most traditional classes really were. I was looking through a copy of Black Belt recently and they had a timeline of martial arts developments in the 70s.

1975? "Contact karate angers traditionalists who prefer no contact."

Yes, it's an interesting conundrum. We KNOW that sparring is a relatively recent development from around the 1930s or so as from the Japanese university clubs. Famous sensei from before that era like Miyagi, Chojun did not believe in sparring, yet surely it would be heresy to argue that they could not fight. (I know of no accounts about Miyagi Sensei getting into a fight, but there are tales of others from his period and before that did and successfully so.)

My karate is infected by modernism in this respect. I believe sparring is necessary.

 

[SPX]

You need to go to a kyokushin or offshoot dojo.

Nearest one is an hour away.

You're probably too young too have been in a kyokushin dojo in the 60's and 70s's.

I am, but I've seen the documentary Fighting Black Kings so I know what you're getting at.

In 1969, Oyama staged The First All-Japan Full Contact Karate Open Championships.

No one's saying full-contact didn't exist, but was it the norm in most karate styles at the time?

 

[SPX]

Yes, it's an interesting conundrum. We KNOW that sparring is a relatively recent development from around the 1930s or so as from the Japanese university clubs. Famous sensei from before that era like Miyagi, Chojun did not believe in sparring, yet surely it would be heresy to argue that they could not fight.

That's a concept that I don't even understand. How could "no sparring" ever be considered a GOOD thing for the development of effective fighters?

 

[elder999]

Nearest one is an hour away.

Was worth the commute when I was 12, was worth a longer commute when I was 15, was worth an even longer commute from Long Island to Manhattan when I was in college.

It's worth the commute now.

I am, but I've seen the documentary Fighting Black Kings so I know what you're getting at.

Those were my seniors.

No one's saying full-contact didn't exist, but was it the norm in most karate styles at the time?

Hell no.

 

[dancingalone]

That's a concept that I don't even understand. How could "no sparring" ever be considered a GOOD thing for the development of effective fighters?

I've discussed this many times with my teacher who is an Okinawan and thus perhaps more nuanced in how sensei from that era may have thought. The remarks he came back to me on several occasions was that typical stand up sparring, even of the full contact type, does not align with the specific tactics of our karate. MMA is perhaps a little closer but it too has certain abstractions and assumptions that render it a different activity altogether.

For my part, I try to teach sparring as more of a contact partner drill. It is understood that we are doing things a little differently than how we would in actual usage, but it is still a valuable activity because we can apply some of what we practice against a live resisting target.

 

[Grenadier]

So basically regardless of everyone's native karate style they would need to learn the "approved" version of each kata to compete?

It depends.

There are essentially two major divisions for kata competition, the Tokui division, where you can use any kata listed in the rulebooks (and they encompass almost all of them), and the Shitei division, which involves the first two rounds using only the eight kata on the Shitei list (Shotokan's Kanku Dai and Jion, Wado Ryu's Chinto and Seisan, Goju Ryu's Seipai and Saifa, and Shito Ryu's Bassai Dai and Seienchin).

In Tokui, you can use the same kata until you reach the medal rounds, where you must change. The kata can be almost anything out there that's from a known system. For example, for me, I use kata Unsu through my first few rounds, until the medal round, where I'll switch to Gojushiho Dai. You can choose any kata from the Tokui or Shitei list. Also, if your school chooses to make modifications to a kata listed on the Shitei list, then it's OK.

In Shitei, you must do one of the eight Shitei kata for each of your first two rounds (so you need two Shitei kata). During these first two rounds, you must perform the kata as described in the Shitei listing. Thus, if you kiai in move #13 of Kanku Dai instead of the required #12, then you can be disqualified. Or, if your particular Shotokan school uses a high block instead of a middle block in the kata, and you do the high block, you'll be disqualified.

This way, everyone's on the same playing field, and no school-specific alterations are allowed.

After those first two rounds, you can do any kata on the Shitei or Tokui list, and school-specific alterations of the Shitei kata are allowed.

For example, I would use Shotokan's Jion in the 1st round, Shotokan's Kanku Dai in the second round, and then for rounds 3-5, I would choose maybe Unsu, Kanku Sho, and Gojushihi Dai, not necessarily in that order.

Just because you practice one style, though, does not mean you can't do another system's kata in the Shitei division. Back when I was more of a Wado practitioner, I would use Chinto in the 1st round for Shitei, and then use Shotokan's Jion, since Wado Ryu's Seisan doesn't show that well in kata competition (what were they thinking when they chose it?!? Why not Wanshu?), even though at the time, I hadn't trained in Shotokan for several years. I also know of Goju Ryu Karate-Ka who might do Goju's Seipai, but won't use Saifa, since it doesn't show well. They'll usually use Shito Ryu Bassai Dai or Shito Ryu Seienchin, or something else.


In general, Shitei division carries a bit more prestige to it. For the USA-NKF national championships, some of the US team members are selected from those who choose to compete in Shitei kata division, and not Tokui, unless that person's a legacy. It's also thought of as a more "fair" division, but to truly have a fair division, you need judges and referees who are at least somewhat versed in how the four major systems do their kata, and how their fundamentals differ. Judges and referees who have the attitude of "my way is the best way, others are inferior" are the ones who stink up the judging, since their ignorance does more harm to the integrity of the sport.

 

[Tez3]

Ah, okay, so it sounds like you're referring to kata competition then, not kumite?




I've actually listened to his podcast a few times. I don't always understand what he's talking about since I'm not familiar with karate kata, but he has some interesting thoughts nonetheless.

We did say kata competitions. i will pass your thoughts on to Iain.