Wado-ryu watered down version of shotokan ?

[Sojobo]

Perhaps another thing you have to bear in mind is where Wado has come from.

Peoples views in the west are somewhat skewed when it comes to what traditional dojo stand for.

A lot of the attitude in Wado dojo can probably be traced back to its Koryu origins where, it was an expected part of Budo, that new members of the dojo would enter having emptied their cup as it were.

I'm lucky enough to train with such a Koryu, and its much the same way in traditional Wado dojo - potential / new students are ignored in a way, as the instructor (and the rest of the Dojo) probably thinks they won't stick at it anyway.

Sojobo

 

[SPX]

Actually (from a Wado perspective anyway) that's a rather superficial layer. There is so much more to martial engagement than knowing how to kick and punch - you can teach a monkey how to do that lol. What about understanding how to size up an opponent by looking at them? How about understanding correct fighting distance, timing and angles of entry? How about learning how to use your body efficiently and further more understanding how to exploit your opponents weaknesses?

Well I think all those things still tie into punching and kicking. I thought it would be understood that I did not merely mean the mechanics of performing a punch or kick but also how to execute that punch or kick on an attacker.

Let me give you an example: On either the first or second day of my Wado training (the first couple of lessons were private sessions with the instructor) we ran through a very simple drill in which he would punch and I would parry that punch and counter-attack. It was very simple . . . but also very helpful in terms--as you said--of understanding distance and timing, as well as the simple execution of the technique. It also could be very useful for self-defense. Should it take me years to really gain an understanding of what that drill is supposed to teach me or to be able to use that in a real-life encounter?

I don't quite know where you are getting the need to attach timescales from.

Well if I remember correctly you mentioned that Wado takes years to learn. I said yes, certainly, but a basic competency for self-defense purposes against an untrained attacker shouldn't take more than six months with regular, dedicated training.

Besides, I've never attended a martial arts school that didn't have some idea about how long it was supposed to take to reach certain levels of understanding. If you had been there five years and were still a white belt trying to get the hang of pinan shodan then they would think that was very odd.

From a Budo perspective - Karate has no timescales. Consumers put requirements on things. If, as a consumer, you expect more rapid results then perhaps you are missing the point?

When I go to the gym, I have an idea of how long it should take me to add a pound of muscle or increase my bench press by 10 pounds. If I go to school, I have an idea about how long it's supposed to take me to get a degree.

If I train in martial arts, I also have an idea about how long it should take to gain a certain skillset. I have already, in my above reply to dancingalone, talked about why it's important for me to achieve certain things within certain amounts of time. If we want to talk about the spiritual or psychological benefits of martial arts, then we can do that, but it's a different discussion. I am focusing here on the benefits of having the ability to do certain physical things. Last I checked that was a part of martial arts.

Knowing how to fight and Self Defense is not the same thing.

I'm starting to get the impression that you're really wanting to split hairs with me.

Is this the part where you tell me that self-defense is about avoiding conflict or how the most important skill in self-defense is an awareness of your surroundings?

Hey, one guy approaches another in a bar and says he doesn't like the way the guy is looking at his girlfriend. He throws a punch. The other guy's back is against a wall and can't escape, so he defends, counter-attacks and subdues his opponent. Boom! They had a fight. One guy defended himself by being better at fighting than the other guy was.

Why are you nitpicking?

I respect Mr Abernethy's work. He comes from a school that is "Based" in Wado - ask him and he will tell you that what he does and his approach is NOT Wado.

I was careful to say that he "came from a Wado background." It may not be pure Wado, but that is still the core of his training and knowledge.

 

[SPX]

. . . potential / new students are ignored in a way, as the instructor (and the rest of the Dojo) probably thinks they won't stick at it anyway.

That was exactly the case with the head Japanese instructor. He never once said a single word to me.

 

[Sojobo]

That was exactly the case with the head Japanese instructor. He never once said a single word to me.

Seems his judgement was right on the money then doesn't it?

Sojobo

 

[SPX]

Are you trying to pick a fight?

 

[dancingalone]

What art do you train in, out of curiosity?

My primary interest is in Okinawan Goju-ryu karate and to a somewhat lesser extent Aikido. I make my livelihood through operating a TKD dojang though and thus the bulk of my students study TKD.

 

[SPX]

What do you find more interesting about goju-ryu than TKD?

 

[dancingalone]

I don't really view things in that lens any more. Both arts have much to recommend themselves for.

Goju-ryu is a deep art with extensive information within its teachings to handle the short and medium ranges. Paired with kobudo as it often is, it is as complete a system as any out there and it can be practiced by both the young and old. But the primary reason I am a Goju-ryu stylist is because my teacher is one. Had things unfolded otherwise, I might consider myself a baji or cha fist man instead.

 

[Sojobo]

Are you trying to pick a fight?

No, there are enough fights in the real world (physically and metaphorically)

Well

I think all those things still tie into punching and kicking. I thought it would be understood that I did not merely mean the mechanics of performing a punch or kick but also how to execute that punch or kick on an attacker.

Let me give you an example: On either the first or second day of my Wado training (the first couple of lessons were private sessions with the instructor) we ran through a very simple drill in which he would punch and I would parry that punch and counter-attack. It was very simple . . . but also very helpful in terms--as you said--of understanding distance and timing, aswell as the simple execution of the technique. It also could be very useful for self-defense. Should it take me years to really gain an understanding of what that drill is supposed to teach me or to be able to use that in a real-life encounter?

Those are some of the very first basic drills used in most Wado keiko-jo, but, to be fair, they are just really a spring board to get you to the more interesting "functional" stuff.

What you learned there is not a million miles away from bog standard Shotokan club would do - so I can see why - if you didn't go much beyond that, why you would think that Wado and Shotokan would be very similar. Actually at that level you are quite right.

But those exercises are for our juniors. Not to give them the answers, but to start to give them tools they need to work the answers out.

Besides, I've never attended a martial arts school thatdidn't have some idea about how long it was supposed to take to reach certain levels of understanding. If you had been there five years and were still a white belt trying to get the hang of pinan shodan then they would think thatwas very odd.

When I go to the gym, I have an idea of how long it should take me to add apound of muscle or increase my bench press by 10 pounds. If I go to school, Ihave an idea about how long it's supposed to take me to get a degree.

If I train in martial arts, I also have an idea about how long it should taketo gain a certain skillset. I have already, in my above reply to dancingalone,talked about why it's important for me to achieve certain things within certainamounts of time. If we want to talk about the spiritual or psychologicalbenefits of martial arts, then we can do that, but it's a different discussion.I am focusing here on the benefits of having the ability to do certain physicalthings. Last I checked that was a part of martial arts.

Again (and not seeking contention here), you seem to have it all worked out before you have even stepped foot into the dojo. This may be the way of the average western dojo - but it certainly isn't in any of the good Wado dojo I have trained in.

You mentioned Pinan Shodan - that's interesting as last weekend I trained with Shingo Ohgami sensei, and guess what we practiced - Pinan Shodan. Why? because(and I have been training for over 25 years) he thought it needed work. And he was right.

Is this the part where you tell methat self-defense is about avoiding conflict or how the most important skill inself-defense is an awareness of your surroundings?

Yep pretty much so - be careful how you cross the road. You have a far greater chance of meeting your maker in that pursuit.

I guess what I am trying to say is that if self defense if you number one objective (or indeed even very high on your list) there are far more efficientway to achieve that. A good RBSD groups will give you in a month what a traditional Wado group would struggle to do in a decade (if ever).

Sorry if that shatters your "eastern ma" vision, but it's the truth.... so... Why bother training (he asks rhetorically)?

Sojobo

 

[Sojobo]

This is the Wado-ryu renmei's (Otsuka's group) Japanese website:

http://www.wado-ryu.jp/english.html

There's very little mention of Self Defense.

Have a look at the page "The Object of Studying".

Sojobo

 

[SPX]

No, there are enough fights in the real world (physically and metaphorically)

Indeed.

Those are some of the very first basic drills used in most Wado keiko-jo, but, to be fair, they are just really a spring board to get you to the more interesting "functional" stuff.

While I would agree that simple drill was "basic," I think it's often those very simple things that prove to be the most useful for self-defense. It was a parry with a well-timed counter-punch. Boxers have been using it effectively for ages.

What you learned there is not a million miles away from bog standard Shotokan club would do - so I can see why - if you didn't go much beyond that, why you would think that Wado and Shotokan would be very similar. Actually at that level you are quite right.

Makes sense. Perhaps that explains it.

But those exercises are for our juniors. Not to give them the answers, but to start to give them tools they need to work the answers out.

I was actually waiting to see some more advanced stuff, and while I did on occasion, the vast majority of classes consisted of similar exercises to the one I described.

Again (and not seeking contention here), you seem to have it all worked out before you have even stepped foot into the dojo. This may be the way of the average western dojo - but it certainly isn't in any of the good Wado dojo I have trained in.

I don't know about "having it all worked out," but I do have ideas about how long it should take to achieve certain things, regardless of if we're talking about martial arts, gaining muscle in the gym, or reading a 300 page book.

Why wouldn't I?

Apparently I am not alone. Perhaps you can blame it on Sensei Osaka's 4+ decades in the West but he also has ideas about how long it should take to achieve things in Wado. It was discussed during my first class. Blue belt usually takes about 3 months. Black belt usually takes about 3 years with dedicated training, while those who train less do it more in 4 or 5 years.

Perhaps your dojos' ways aren't the only ways?

You mentioned Pinan Shodan - that's interesting as last weekend I trained with Shingo Ohgami sensei, and guess what we practiced - Pinan Shodan. Why? because(and I have been training for over 25 years) he thought it needed work. And he was right.

Nothing will ever be perfect, but I'm sure if after 25 years you hadn't progressed to learning Pinan Nidan your sensei would consider that an issue.

Yep pretty much so - be careful how you cross the road. You have a far greater chance of meeting your maker in that pursuit.

It's interesting you mention crossing the road because I was doing just that a few months ago when a clearly mentally unstable black guy came up to me, got in my way, and very aggressively said, "What's up?" as he got in my face.

I said, "I'm just going to the store. . ."

He said, "Well get your white *** in the store then!"

I walked around him and carried on and heard him say, "And don't let me catch you around here again!"

It was especially strange because I live in one of the safest neighborhoods in America, but it just goes to show you that sometimes trouble finds you even when you're not looking for it. What if he hadn't let me pass? What if he followed me and then attacked me?

Sometimes you're forced into a position where you have to act.

I guess what I am trying to say is that if self defense if you number one objective (or indeed even very high on your list) there are far more efficientway to achieve that. A good RBSD groups will give you in a month what a traditional Wado group would struggle to do in a decade (if ever).

If I just wanted to learn to fight then I would do MMA for sure. As I said I'm a big fan, but it lacks the history and tradition of the Asian systems.

There are four primary reasons for my interest in martial arts (in no particular order):

1. Self-Defense
2. Competition
3. Fitness
4. History, Tradition and Philosophy, i.e. Martial arts as a way of life. . .

Sorry if that shatters your "eastern ma" vision, but it's the truth.... so... Why bother training (he asks rhetorically)?

It doesn't shatter anything.

I actually had just about given up on karate as an effective fighting system. Ironically enough, it was MMA that came to the rescue when Lyoto Machida started knocking fools out in the UFC.

Then I found the Wado school (after visiting several other karate and TKD schools) and saw that they were pretty good fighters.

But. . .

There have been some developments. I have been exchanging a few e-mails both with my instructor at the Wado school as well as with an instructor at the Shotokan school.

I expressed to my Wado instructor exactly what I was looking for and talked about my disappointment in not being able to find a local karate school that was as fighting/competition focused as I would like. Here is his response, in part, which I'm sure he wouldn't mind if I shared:

I agree with you. The only way to get really good is to train for several hours every day. Sensei Osaka comes from the Nihon University Karate Team (Nichi-Dai). He Graduated in 1963. Nichi-Dai is famous for austere discipline and brutal training methods (especially in Sensei Osaka's day). If you have time, you should do a bit of research on old time Nichi-Dai. When I was 19 years old Sensei sent me to Nichi-Dai and I lived with those guys at the Nichi-Dai dojo for awhile.

We trained very hard five hours a day, six days a week. When I came back I started a karate team (club) at the University of Utah. I tried to base the training on what I had experienced at Nichi-Dai. Our University club went strong for about 4 years. During that time myself and a few other of Sensei Osaka's University team students traveled to tournaments in the US, Japan and Europe. We were very successful.

Then we graduated and put our karate-do training to use in our daily lives. Many of Sensei's top fighters who trained with me back at the University club have moved away to pursue their careers. I have been lucky enough to stay around the dojo.

Sensei's philosophy has always been that Karate-Do training should make a person a better human being. That is what it is all about to us.

I think that the popularity of MMA has taken some of the students that we used to get at our dojo back in the day. The young guys who liked to mix it up. We don't have that kind of student anymore so it is hard for a guy like you. Most of our students are hobbyists and the old time fighters are now busy fighting in the arena of life.

From his response, the impression that I get is that I should've found that dojo 20 years ago, but that the flavor has changed as everyone has gotten older.

However, then I got a response from the Shotokan instructor (I have met other instructors from that school, but not this one). Again, I explained to him what I was looking for and he responded, in part:

Thanks for contacting me on this. I completely understand where you are coming from. If you are going to train, you want it to be worth something outside of the dojo. I feel much the same way. For me fighting drives the rest of my practice. Don't get me wrong I truly believe that kata and basics have an extremely valuable place in Karate and are vital to progressing. However, that does not motivate me. I am motivated by becoming a better fighter. I have been leading a fighting class on as many Friday nights as I can. This has been partly a selfish thing for me as it sets aside a block of time for me to work on fighting and also to hopefully bring up the fighting level of those in the club. One important thing that I try to push is that your fighting mentality should be the same in a real situation or a tournament.

He then went on to talk about how long he has been competing and how he's trying to get everyone ready for a tournament in April.

So, while I appreciate the Wado dojo and have an unusually high degree of respect for my instructor there and his abilities, it sounds like the Shotokan school might be a better fit. I should know in a couple of weeks. This particular instructor has been out for a few weeks because he got cracked hard in the face during a match and had to get surgery. But he'll be back on the 30th and has invited me to come check his class out and discuss everything further.

 

[dancingalone]

I know we're talking about Wado-ryu primarily, but I do Goju-ryu. My teacher is an older transplant Okinawan. He would be quite bothered by the notion that learning how to fight is not the primary reason why we practice karate. Note that I say "how to fight" rather than self-defense as I think the latter term has developed certain connotations here in the west as evidenced by the many discussions here about what SD is or isn't. I'm very certain that to my teacher fighting and SD are the same thing.

"Want to learn self-defense? Simple. Don't get hit."

 

[Sojobo]

Here’s the difference as I see it:-

As I mentioned in a previous post, Wado-ryu has its roots firmly embedded in Japanese (not Okinwan) Koryu Bujutsu. The Koryu of feudal Japan initially came about as a means to transmit martial methods to the warring clans however, as the philosophies of “Zen” became intertwined with Japanese culture in the early part of the 17[SUP]th[/SUP] century, the practices of the Koryu became as much about the “improvement of self” as the “Martial” content itself. In a nutshell - Bujutsu becomes Budo.

That’s not to say martial element became watered down, but there was perhaps a different reasoning behind learning the arts in the firstplace.

The notion of “Do” (way, path, maxim etc) is an important to Zen Buddhist philosophy. IE the study of an art (and it need not be martial) as a central focus point - to challenge and embrace improvements to one-self. The task is to seek perfection in the art itself - to perform the perfect “waza”, to grow and get stronger for it - in mind and body – not by striving to be better than others (by wining competitions or self defence etc.).

And therein lies the difficult bit for us westerners to grasp maybe as, surely, by winning competitions or by defeating others in a fight (be that SD or in a sporting contest) it is a tangible sign of self improvement??? Well from a Budo perspective – not really.

Competition has become an important part of Modern Budo (in arts like Judo, Karate, Kendo etc) and I would be a hypercritic if I said they were not important, they are. Some of the best Karate competition fighters on the circuit come from Wado, but from a Budo perspective, being able to fight(and taking part in competitions) is just part of the journey not the reason for it.

And there’s the problem…

In the west, it is very difficult to market something as esoteric as “Budo”. Most of us don’t understand it let alone have the desire to embrace it. So, if you want to market a martial art you advertise what the consumer is most likely to relate to and therefore want:

1. Everybody loves to be a winner – so sport andcompetition are King.

2. It’s a scary World out there – so self defenseis seen as a must have.

Sojobo

 

[dancingalone]

The Zen enlightenment philosophy is present in Okinawan karate as well as seen by writings like men like Nagamine or interviews with students of Miyagi and Mabuni. Of course to what degree and to what importance it holds is according to individual instructors.

 

[punisher73]

I have seen WAY too many of these discussions. As my roommate in college used to say, "Everyone sucks to someone else."

Almost EVERY time an art branches out from another art, I see arguments from the original group that the new art is "watered down". I have seen arguments from Shorin-Ryu to Shotokan, Shorin-Ryu and Goju-Ryu to Isshin-Ryu, Judo to BJJ (just naming a few off the top of my head). Now lets not even get in to the arguments IN THE SAME STYLE from instructor to instructor of who teaches closest to Master So and So and teaches the "real art"! This goes back in okinawan karate all the way to the beginning when you read about Motobu and Funakoshi dissing each other about what they were doing.

 

[SPX]

I'm very certain that to my teacher fighting and SD are the same thing.

That's pretty much the way I see it, too. Regardless of what else goes into it there are times when conflict is unavoidable and you're going to either win or lose, that is, you will be successful at defending yourself by fighting off your attacker or you won't.

 

[chinto]

I know we're talking about Wado-ryu primarily, but I do Goju-ryu. My teacher is an older transplant Okinawan. He would be quite bothered by the notion that learning how to fight is not the primary reason why we practice karate. Note that I say "how to fight" rather than self-defense as I think the latter term has developed certain connotations here in the west as evidenced by the many discussions here about what SD is or isn't. I'm very certain that to my teacher fighting and SD are the same thing.

"Want to learn self-defense? Simple. Don't get hit."

I agree with your teacher. in any real fight you may die. so by definition its a self defense situation. sparring is different because there are rules and things of course, and the intent is not to remove your opponent from combat by death or serious injury.