Wado-ryu watered down version of shotokan ?

[chinto]

Not all Wado people do the 'sport' sparring thing, ours was full on, again it comes down to what particular clubs and particular instructors do. Judging Wado Ryu on a couple of videos is pointless, you could do the same with many styles and get the wrong impression. I would say more 'is this instructor for you' rather than this style and to be honest I don't think the OP had given enough time or had learnt enough to make any comparisions with any other style, I think he will always be disappointed.

that is why I said all i had seen of it made me wonder if that was a good example. I think you should have found you like some of what your learning very early on. if you have not, then perhaps not the style for you. but again that was the question he has to decide, not you or I.

 

[SPX]

I think if you chance upon a good Wado club, it will be clear that actually, Shotokan and Wado have very little in common.

That's not been my experience. I've trained at a Wado school headed by one of the top Japanese masters (now living in the United States) and Wado and Shotokan seem very similar to me.

In answer to the OP, his post is interesting because I had to quit training for a little while because of a shoulder injury. Now I'm looking to get back into it and am a bit torn. I've been visiting a Shotokan class and it has some elements that I can appreciate. I think I might fit in with the people there a bit better. However, the Wado class is more intense and, it seems to me, those guys have a better understanding of how to actually apply their techniques in a fight.

So MY experience has been: Wado is fierce . . . Shotokan is more chill.

But as has already been said here, it's really about the school and the instructor.

 

[Sojobo]

That's not been my experience. I've trained at a Wado school headed by one of the top Japanese masters (now living in the United States) and Wado and Shotokan seem very similar to me.

In answer to the OP, his post is interesting because I had to quit training for a little while because of a shoulder injury. Now I'm looking to get back into it and am a bit torn. I've been visiting a Shotokan class and it has some elements that I can appreciate. I think I might fit in with the people there a bit better. However, the Wado class is more intense and, it seems to me, those guys have a better understanding of how to actually apply their techniques in a fight.

I can see why the lay person might think the two look similar however the operating systems are completely different.

Did you practice Kihon Kumite at your dojo? If anything, these represent the DNA of Wado. You will not find anything that comes remotely close in a Shotokan dojo.

These paired kata contain the core principles of Wado-ryu. They are also designed to impart the basic stratagems of fighting.

This is why perhaps your experience has been that Wado folk tend to be rather good at fighting!!

Sojobo

 

[Instructor]

OP, I can't comment on Wado or Shotokan, those aren't my styles. But you've only been training for a couple of weeks. You've just scratched the surface. It takes years and years before you are even remotely qualified to evaluate a style. It sounds to me like your instructor is trying to instill the fundamentals in beginners and polish/reinforce in the higher students. I see nothing wrong here based on what you said about the style, the school, or your teacher.

 

[SPX]

Did you practice Kihon Kumite at your dojo? If anything, these represent the DNA of Wado. You will not find anything that comes remotely close in a Shotokan dojo.

These paired kata contain the core principles of Wado-ryu. They are also designed to impart the basic stratagems of fighting.

We did. I didn't personally, because I got hurt before I got that far, but I saw other people doing it.

Maybe I'm speaking more broadly here, but a side kick in Wado looks like a side kick in Shotokan, the stances are similar (in fact, I visited an SKA Shotokan dojo, which tends to use higher stances than JKA dojos, and the stances looked nearly identitical), the blocks are similar, a lot of the movement is similar.

So to me, Wado and Shotokan look far more similar than, say, Wado and WTF TKD, or Wado and Wing Chun, or Wado and Muay Thai.

This is why perhaps your experience has been that Wado folk tend to be rather good at fighting!!

Sojobo

Could be!

I think the flavor of this particular dojo has something to do with it as well. It's apparently a little more toned down now than it used to be, but they would tell stories about the old days (the place has been around since the 70s when Sensei Osaka first moved to the US) when sparring regularly lead to bloody noses, disputes between students were sometimes settled with their fists on the dojo floor, and everyone would go out for beers together after class.

Also, nearly everyone there is a black belt. In any given class there was usually four or five black belts, a brown belt, sometimes one purple belt, and then me, the lone white belt. I felt a little out of place.

 

[SPX]

I see nothing wrong here based on what you said about the style, the school, or your teacher.

It could also be though that the school just sucks. I have a friend who started out in Wado when he was a kid. He thought it was a joke. Recently he looked to see if the place was still in business and found a website and some YouTube vids. I took a look at them and he was right, the place is a joke. Far too many karate schools are.

So I would tell the OP that if the school he's been visiting looks anything like this, then he should run away fast:

 

[Tez3]

It could also be though that the school just sucks. I have a friend who started out in Wado when he was a kid. He thought it was a joke. Recently he looked to see if the place was still in business and found a website and some YouTube vids. I took a look at them and he was right, the place is a joke. Far too many karate schools are.

So I would tell the OP that if the school he's been visiting looks anything like this, then he should run away fast:

I don't recognise that as being Wado especially some of the kicks that are more likely to be found in TKD.
However the fact that a school is bad doesn't mean it's the style that makes it bad. bad schools are down to bad instructors. You can't blame Wado for the way those youngsters perform, it's the school, the instructors and whatever they teach.

 

[Sojobo]

My eyes were sick after watching that. Thank you, not....!!!

 

[SPX]

I don't recognise that as being Wado especially some of the kicks that are more likely to be found in TKD.

There's clearly some supplementary material, but the teacher's background is Wado:

http://daviddeaton.com/history.html

And that's how he sells it:

"Wado-Ryu: Traditional Japanese Martial Art"

http://daviddeaton.com/karate.html

So the OP could be running into a similar situation.

However the fact that a school is bad doesn't mean it's the style that makes it bad. bad schools are down to bad instructors. You can't blame Wado for the way those youngsters perform, it's the school, the instructors and whatever they teach.

That was exactly my point.

 

[SPX]

My eyes were sick after watching that. Thank you, not....!!!

Oh, c'mon . . . I know you loved it.

 

[jks9199]

I don't recognise that as being Wado especially some of the kicks that are more likely to be found in TKD.
However the fact that a school is bad doesn't mean it's the style that makes it bad. bad schools are down to bad instructors. You can't blame Wado for the way those youngsters perform, it's the school, the instructors and whatever they teach.

Or even that a particular demonstration exercise isn't wildly impressive. The video is clearly some sort of graduation "showpiece." Not wowed by what I saw, and I kind of wonder how many hours went into the practicing and choreography that could have been spent on solid training -- but it could also be the kid's program. I'm not comfortable judging by the one demo...

Wado's got a history of being effective. I'm far from an expert on the history of the various karate styles -- but I wouldn't call any of them simply a "watered down" version of another.

 

[Tez3]

SPX, when you posted you said your friend thought Wado was a joke, it's looked as if you were more or less agreeing.

 

[Sojobo]

I think the flavor of this particular dojo has something to do with it as well. It's apparently a little more toned down now than it used to be, but they would tell stories about the old days (the place has been around since the 70s when Sensei Osaka first moved to the US) when sparring regularly lead to bloody noses, disputes between students were sometimes settled with their fists on the dojo floor, and everyone would go out for beers together after class.

I don't think that's exclusive to Wado dojo, but it's what happens in ours anyway (and also other Ryu-ha I train in ) and it's what makes you - if you understand what I mean?

It's a shame you didn't get to understand Kihon Kumite - as it kinda holds the key to a lot of things.

Sounds like you had a good group there - why do you need to train elsewhere?

Sojobo

 

[SPX]

Well I said "the place is a joke." And from everything I've been able to tell, it is. And I contrasted my local Wado school as offering pretty much the exact opposite experience. So it's less the style and more the way it's taught that is important. I was cautioning the OP not to judge Wado by a single school or teacher.

 

[SPX]

Or even that a particular demonstration exercise isn't wildly impressive. The video is clearly some sort of graduation "showpiece." Not wowed by what I saw, and I kind of wonder how many hours went into the practicing and choreography that could have been spent on solid training -- but it could also be the kid's program. I'm not comfortable judging by the one demo...

Wado's got a history of being effective. I'm far from an expert on the history of the various karate styles -- but I wouldn't call any of them simply a "watered down" version of another.

Well again, it was a statement on the school, not the style.

I couldn't find any footage of a regular class, but just for fun I will offer this instructor demo for everyone's consideration:

 

[Sojobo]

IMO, their Kihon Kumite wasn't a million miles out.

Lacked attention to detail - but they had the outline there.

Sojobo

 

[SPX]

I don't think that's exclusive to Wado dojo, but it's what happens in ours anyway (and also other Ryu-ha I train in ) and it's what makes you - if you understand what I mean?

No, certainly not, but I do think that that's kind of part of a bygone era for martial arts for the most part. Even this school has toned it down a good bit over the past handful of years and, in my experience at least, most schools are way too afraid of lawsuits to allow that kind of thing to go on.

Sounds like you had a good group there - why do you need to train elsewhere?

It's a good school and when I first visited I walked away feeling like I had just gotten my first glimpse of TRUE karate.

However, for one thing, I never totally felt like I was fitting in or clicking with the rest of the group. With the exception of the purple belt who just kind of kept to himself, I was the youngest by over a decade and also the only person who hadn't been there for years. It would've been nice to have some people kind of at my level to bond with. Also, and this was very important to me, I went out of my way to try to find some guys there who wanted to get together outside of class and train. Doing stuff in class is great, but it's only an hour three times a week or whatever. I knew that if I was really going to get up to speed and understand this art, then I would need a partner who would be as interested as I was in doing drills, sparring and just generally "comparing notes" outside of the dojo. I even went so far as to set up an Internet forum where everyone could talk outside of class and perhaps organize meetups and so forth but not one even person bothered to check it out. I admit that was really disappointing to me.

So my shoulder's better now but that's why I haven't just immediately jumped back into training there. I'm checking out a few others options. The Shotokan school that I've been looking at seems to be a good one. One thing in particular that interests me is that there's a particular instructor there who teaches a "fighting class" (as they call it) on Friday nights that is dedicated entirely to sparring. I know he has done a lot of competing and has even trained some with the US National Team.

All things being equal, I would go back to the Wado school. Like I said, it's "fiercer" karate. But I would be willing to make some sacrifices on that end if I can find a place where I fit in a little better and which has students and/or instructors who would be interested in taking things to another level and getting together outside of class. I just think that's essential unless you want to train purely as a form of simple recreation.

Too bad I can't go old school and have some master take me under their wing and train me Mr. Miyagi style.

 

[Tez3]

When similiar things are posted in the TKD section, often people say that at least the kids are doing something rather than just being sat on their bums on their computers, and that's true. I'm not defending a bad school I'd like to see them do something better but what they do is as least better than nothing.

 

[SPX]

IMO, their Kihon Kumite wasn't a million miles out.

Lacked attention to detail - but they had the outline there.

Sojobo

While I don't know the specifics of Kihon Kumite, I did think that video was an improvement over the last one. Some of those guys at least seemed to have fairly crisp technique. So I'm not totally hatin'. In fact, that was the best one I found and posted it to be "fair."

 

[SPX]

When similiar things are posted in the TKD section, often people say that at least the kids are doing something rather than just being sat on their bums on their computers, and that's true. I'm not defending a bad school I'd like to see them do something better but what they do is as least better than nothing.

I really think it come down to what people want. If someone told me they don't do it for self-defense and don't care about the combat applications, but are just looking for a fun activity and that they get into the XMA-style flashy techniques and acrobatics, then I say more power to them. There are certainly such schools out there to fit those needs and I have to say that even I have been known to throw a tornado or do a back handspring here and there.

Although, I will say this: If you're going to go that route, you should still find a good school that can teach that kind of thing properly. It just seems like if you're going to do something--whatever it is--then you should try to find the best teacher that you can and try to learn to do it to the best of your ability.