Value of upper level forms?

[HighKick]

I agree with Haruhiko that deep stances in kata were not put in to build strength (a deep stance is low, like a horse can be, but if you're talking about a "forward" stance, there is also a weight distribution factor - I'm not sure how you meant it, but no matter). There are better ways to do that. Stances, like ALL kata techniques/postures, are meant to be functional in a self-defense context. But as this context has been often sublimated in favor of competitive or exercise goals, the intended purpose being lost in the evolution of modern karate to a greater or lesser degree depending on the style.

Then, why is there a low/deep stance? After all, it generally limits your agility. What is its/their value? My initial answer is "NONE." In many/most cases there is no martial value in being in a low stance. The value is found in getting into a low stance. Like any other karate technique, the value is not so much its static position, but in its kinetic motion on its way to that position. This is where the work is done. What work?

1. Early karate had a lot of stand-up grappling. When this is the case a lower center of gravity is helpful. When trying to figure out a bunkai, a low stance is one indicator that some of this is going on. (Here, there is some value in this static position).

2. A lot of times when you grab someone it's with the intention of pulling or throwing him down. Getting into a low stance is part of the technique as your weight doing down adds power.

3. The same applies for a downward strike. Ed Parker called this "marriage of gravity."

4. In the case of a forward stance/zenkutsu-dachi, the process of moving some of your weight to the forward leg can drive it into the opponent's leg, buckling his stance and balance.

We are on the same page. I never thought anyone would think I meant you miraculously find yourself in a deep stance. Naturally, a big part of the stance is getting into it and out of it. I just assumed that was rather obvious.

There are important nuances with stance work when it comes to kicking as well. There is a myriad of stance/footwork options depending on which leg you are kicking (lead/rear), the direction you are kicking (literally 360°), what you are kicking (leg, body, head), whether you are rotating, etc... The list goes on and on.

But specific to deep stances in floor drills or forms, they do build leg, back and core strength.

 

[Haruhiko]

Then, why is there a low/deep stance? After all, it generally limits your agility. What is its/their value? My initial answer is "NONE." In many/most cases there is no martial value in being in a low stance. The value is found in getting into a low stance. Like any other karate technique, the value is not so much its static position, but in its kinetic motion on its way to that position. This is where the work is done. What work?

Exactly! It's the getting into, and then transition into, that the kata expects of the student's body and mind. It's not practical - it's anticipation around the context of the kata's purpose.

 

[HighKick]

I think you misunderstood the sarcasm/him using that as a way to portray the issue with the initial post

If it was sarcasm, yes, I missed it. Too much math in this engineering head to immediately whittle things down to basic arithmetic. Usually, getting to a basic arithmetic solution takes some very elegant math in my work.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Exactly! It's the getting into, and then transition into, that the kata expects of the student's body and mind.

Not just kata, combat (individual and large scale) is all about transition. From stance to stance, guard to guard, from defense to offense, side to side, circular to linear, straight to angled, and the list goes on. It is the crucial time between two different movements or postures. IMO, the ability to transist from one of these to the other is the greatest skill a fighter can have. Failure to do it well with proper timing and balance will result in a hesitation or leaving you vulnerable.

Have two students spar - one is told to be the attacker, the other can only defend. The action is fast and furious. Then yell, "switch!" - their roles to reverse. Unless they are very good, advanced fighters, the action will completely stop, both frozen for a second or two - a long time in the midst of flying punches and kicks. This example well illustrates the challenges of transition from defense to offense. Others are less obvious but just as crucial.

Most traditional kata have a lot of various transitions in them and is one area I think kata can directly benefit combat. Whether pre-planned or in response to something unexpected, transitions often are the key to success.

 

[TenHands]

Sure, they can be useful.

Hand techniques: You can train any of them in a "fighting" manner on a heavy bag and make them work. Just stay away from finger strikes and such because they're useless.

Foot techniques: Also good, as long as you stay away from kicks like the snapping side kick or ball-of-foot roundhouse because they're equally useless.

Throws: Dual-hand techniques work well as throws. I have found some good success using yama zuki to train the o-goshi throw. Just stay away from wrist locks and such because those are useless.

 

[wab25]

If it was sarcasm, yes, I missed it. Too much math in this engineering head to immediately whittle things down to basic arithmetic. Usually, getting to a basic arithmetic solution takes some very elegant math in my work.

There was some sarcasm.... But, you are sort of adding to my point.

Sure, all I need to do is practice punching. Depending on the skill level and determination of the other guy.... it may take some very elegant set up work to land that punch in such a way that it is effective. Which is why, first you learn to punch, then you learn to set it up, counter it... etc.

But, if all you need is to learn to punch.... and you want to spend all your time just training your punch... and leave all that extra stuff behind.... I expect you to have a really strong, fast punch.... that you can't land on a target, who spent time learning all that other stuff....

Note: all computers do is add. When you see computers solving complex equations.... all it is doing is adding. Someone had to do the work, to get that complex problem into a form where adding is all that is needed. Again, that was sort of my point.... you need to study more than just adding, even if all you want to do is add. Some problems might need more understanding to solve by adding....