Using WC in the Cage?

[mook jong man]

What I don't understand about shooting is: why does NO one ever knee the guy in the face, or wrap there arm around the guys neck?

I think it depends on how high or low the shoot is .
But the first thing you've got to do is get those legs back and absorb his initial momentum.
I reckon if you try and knee strike while he's coming in you might be lucky but i think he will just grab your leg and take you down even easier.
I tend to think sprawl first then do something.
One of my instructors said never let them complete the grip.
In Australia where im from your more likely to be tackled than get a full on shoot for your bootstraps type of thing because a lot of boys grow up playing rugby league here.
In my opinion you should sprawl first then jam your forearm into their collarbone like a fook sau and the other arm use a chit sau to stop them completing the grip all the while keeping your legs back then apply something.
Preferably something not using legs because there waiting for that leg to come up so they can grab it .
If they come in really low i do a full on sprawl and fall on there upper back sort of like what si-je said but not as brutal.

 

[KamonGuy2]

The simple answer is that there is no leverage. The shooter is aiming to grab your legs and take you down quickly
Guillotines are hard to pull off from there and are also fairly easy to counter
Knees mean that you are given the shooter your leg (which is what he was aiming for in the first place)

Si-je, your experience of the BJJ guy running at you is one experience. There are thousands of different takedowns. My advice is to go onto youtube and type in 'bjj takedown' to get a rough idea of the different approaches. The shoot (tackle) is the easiest because it is hard to counter

Remember that BJJ is derived from Judo and incorperates many Judo throws and takedowns

As I have mentioned before, many professional cage fighters are not high ranking martial arts masters
They are jack of all trades and usually they will work primarily on conditioning and fitness

Some do have very strong backgrounds in arts like BJJ or boxing, but generally they are just tough guys who learn how to scrap

To put it into context, Kevin Chan who is one of the best wing chun guys on the planet, regularly trains with and trains cage fighters. He has judged UFC tournaments in the UK and is very knowledgable on cage fighting
He himself has admitted that wing chun would not hold up on its own in the cage.

I have also mentioned before that the best way of seeing this is to go down to your local BJJ gym and having a look at the free sparring

You soon realise how tough it is to fight a good BJJ guy/gal

I know that the chunners on here don't want their art being criticized and that is not the aim of this thread. You merely get to a stage where you realise that wing chun does not cover everything. Neither does ANY martial art. Boxing has no kicking. BJJ has limited striking. The list goes on.

But many of us do arts because we are interested in them. Not to argue that our art is the best art with other practitioners

 

[Si-Je]

Si-je, your experience of the BJJ guy running at you is one experience. There are thousands of different takedowns. My advice is to go onto youtube and type in 'bjj takedown' to get a rough idea of the different approaches. The shoot (tackle) is the easiest because it is hard to counter

Remember that BJJ is derived from Judo and incorperates many Judo throws and takedowns

Well, after the guy did the running thing, he came closer and feignted until he felt ready to try to shoot in. That was trickier. I don't generally jump into an opponent as much as my instructors like. I can usually read a bait or taunt. Just wait for the contact. Honestly, the body follows the head, so I tend to prefer to simply push the head down to the floor and sprawl. That way I can still feel where their energy's going and I'm not fully committed in movement. It tends to slow them down too.

As for the Judo influences in BJJ, I haven't seen much in the ring. But I think each fighter picks the techniques they like the best or are the most comfortable with and reuses them when fighting. But to execute a good judo throw in the ring would require a couple of years training in judo. That's kinda what I mean. If these guys devoted a year in each art or more, you'd see a different calibur of fighters.

It wasn't until after two years training WC that I even found out that there were joint locks in the art. And throws, granted their mainly head and neck throws, but nevertheless.
If you stay in most arts long enough, they tend to cover more than appears. And WC is very subtle and decietful. Most people understand the speed, chain punching, and hand trapping (if they ever heard of the art before) for which WC is most known for. But very few realize that it's one of the few arts that cover as many situations for self defense. As an empty hand art, I feel it covers all areas of combat.

Like I said, I was very proud of my Ju-jitsu ground technique, but upon even just seeing the anti-grappling for the first time, I was and am still eager to learn more WC ground technique. It just works so well, and still allows me to keep my personal space on the ground. Believe it or not, being a smaller person does NOT give you more advantage over a large opponent on the ground. Better hit the weights! lol!
Especially if they know what you know.

example: I'm 125lbs, and my hubbie/teacher is 250lbs, and when he puts his ENTIRE body weight say on my stomach or chest like in a mount, it's hell and high water before I can roll him off me. And if he simply lays down on top, in say a front choke, ack! Yet the more I keep his full weight off my body the more manuverability I have on the ground. LOL! He can smother me with his chest he's so much larger than I!

So basically, the more I can avoid that point of combat, the better for my ribs! And the sooner I get back up the better, especially if it's before he does, and I can get in a few punches, knee, kick, forearm shiver in while I'm getting up too.

The idea is to keep them down while you keep your feet. Even when I took ju-jitsu we hardly ever went to the ground with the opponent after a throw, or sweep. To the knees was the most desireable, your knees in their neck and/or ribs while flexing a joint lock or choke. (But we trained straight for the break and not the submission as well.)

 

[graychuan]

Why are you guys waiting for these shoots? Especially if you know the opponent is a grappler. Should you not be attacking and taking the space? Take the fight immediately to where your weapons work. Besides thats why they are shooting... trying to get you to the ground. How can they shoot or fight you if they are fighting for thier own balance?

 

[KamonGuy2]

Well, after the guy did the running thing, he came closer and feignted until he felt ready to try to shoot in. That was trickier. I don't generally jump into an opponent as much as my instructors like. I can usually read a bait or taunt. Just wait for the contact. Honestly, the body follows the head, so I tend to prefer to simply push the head down to the floor and sprawl. That way I can still feel where their energy's going and I'm not fully committed in movement. It tends to slow them down too.

As for the Judo influences in BJJ, I haven't seen much in the ring. But I think each fighter picks the techniques they like the best or are the most comfortable with and reuses them when fighting. But to execute a good judo throw in the ring would require a couple of years training in judo. That's kinda what I mean. If these guys devoted a year in each art or more, you'd see a different calibur of fighters.

It wasn't until after two years training WC that I even found out that there were joint locks in the art. And throws, granted their mainly head and neck throws, but nevertheless.
If you stay in most arts long enough, they tend to cover more than appears. And WC is very subtle and decietful. Most people understand the speed, chain punching, and hand trapping (if they ever heard of the art before) for which WC is most known for. But very few realize that it's one of the few arts that cover as many situations for self defense. As an empty hand art, I feel it covers all areas of combat.

Like I said, I was very proud of my Ju-jitsu ground technique, but upon even just seeing the anti-grappling for the first time, I was and am still eager to learn more WC ground technique. It just works so well, and still allows me to keep my personal space on the ground. Believe it or not, being a smaller person does NOT give you more advantage over a large opponent on the ground. Better hit the weights! lol!
Especially if they know what you know.

example: I'm 125lbs, and my hubbie/teacher is 250lbs, and when he puts his ENTIRE body weight say on my stomach or chest like in a mount, it's hell and high water before I can roll him off me. And if he simply lays down on top, in say a front choke, ack! Yet the more I keep his full weight off my body the more manuverability I have on the ground. LOL! He can smother me with his chest he's so much larger than I!

So basically, the more I can avoid that point of combat, the better for my ribs! And the sooner I get back up the better, especially if it's before he does, and I can get in a few punches, knee, kick, forearm shiver in while I'm getting up too.

The idea is to keep them down while you keep your feet. Even when I took ju-jitsu we hardly ever went to the ground with the opponent after a throw, or sweep. To the knees was the most desireable, your knees in their neck and/or ribs while flexing a joint lock or choke. (But we trained straight for the break and not the submission as well.)

The thing is, you will often not have a choice whether you go to ground. The number of times I've been grabbed from behind or attacked suddenly. Obviously if you are fighting in a ring or sport format then it is fairly easy to keep your feet if you know what you're doing.

However, BJJ isn't just about groundwork. They do as much upright clinchwork as floorwork. The reason why you don't see that in the cage is because in pure BJJ you aren't allowed to knee or headbutt your opponent etc. But the clinchwork is still very important

Anti-grappling is such a poor concept. Sprawling is not 'anti- grappling' as it stems from grappling techniques. Wing chun fighters who try to use kung fu moves while on the ground are hilarious to watch.

There is a great clip on youtube of Royce Gracie vs a kung fu expert in his gym. The kung fu guy initially gets some good hits in but then Royce takes him down and thats that, despite the kung fu guy desperately trying to anti-grapple

As I have always said, if you want to grapple, use a grappling art. Don't try to make your art stretch to fit it in

Graychuan - it is not as easy as you think to keep space. Closing distance is very natural, because space closes, especially in bars, clubs, kebab shops, where you will not have room to jump around keeping distance

I'm a big guy but I can close distance very well

 

[Si-Je]

Anti-grappling is such a poor concept. Sprawling is not 'anti- grappling' as it stems from grappling techniques. Wing chun fighters who try to use kung fu moves while on the ground are hilarious to watch.

There is a great clip on youtube of Royce Gracie vs a kung fu expert in his gym. The kung fu guy initially gets some good hits in but then Royce takes him down and thats that, despite the kung fu guy desperately trying to anti-grapple

As I have always said, if you want to grapple, use a grappling art. Don't try to make your art stretch to fit it in

I've seen that fight. That style of Kung Fu didn't teach anti-grappling! That poor kung fu guy! The gracies all came into his school in numerous numbers and challenged the kung fu guy.
Looked like bullies to me.

There is nothing on video I've seen with a grappler fighting a opponent that has been trained anti-grappling. Your useing a vid as an example that doesn't fit the equation.

And the mindset of anti-grappling is to NOT grapple the grappler. Not to play the wrestling game with an opponent that is comfortable grappling.

i.e. if I had to defend against a very strong kicker, I wouldn't stand in kicking range all day and try to out kick him! I'd aim to get as close as possible to him and take away his space for kicking me.
Then I could execute my techniqe and fight the battle on MY terms according to MY training.

Same philosophy when fighting a wrestler, or grappler. He's good at that game, and now I want to take it from him. Lets play the game I'm good at. He grabs me, I punch, kick, knee, (sneak in a plam, or forearm strike) I keep wiggling and attacking, not allowing him to get set in his desired position. For if I allow a grappler to get set on a lock or choke, then I could very well be done for. Even if I know BJJ or grappling. It's just too risky.

When I first started to learn the WT ground fighting, I got matched up with a high school wrestler. He was between the legs (inside my "guard") and he set his weight in a manner I couldn't so easily roll him over. He was great practice! (and twice my size and weight) My teacher quickly showed me what needed to be done to get him "out of my guard," whatever.

(I hate that term, in guard. I don't feel guarded when an opponent is in that position. I feel really vulnerable, and don't understand why this is even considered a desireable position for a fighter.) --just personal preference.

Plus, I think many don't know that there are some really neat WC techniques for getting out of arm bars, and all kinds of joint locks. Even after an opponent has you in the lock. Standing, on the ground too. I've just been starting to learn these "escapes" because my ju-jitsu training has a tendancy to get in the way.
I keep wanting to lock out my arms (i.e. reinvorce a joint lock or choke by grabbing my arms) and have been trained to "tap out" when a lock gets painful. (we used to say maite) so, I hesitate too much. But, I'm getting better!

 

[CuongNhuka]

(I hate that term, in guard. I don't feel guarded when an opponent is in that position. I feel really vulnerable, and don't understand why this is even considered a desireable position for a fighter.)

It's called the guard because if you're in the 'bottom' position you can use your hips to control your opponent. You can have him or really any direction you want, assuming you can manipulate him (generally a little softening is needed). If your opponent goes to strike you can flex so that he misses, or the blow is softened. If you want to go for a lock, it's easier from the bottom position. It is also possible to go to the mount from the guard. However, if you were in the bottom position of the mount, you would rather be in the top position of the guard.

 

[graychuan]

Graychuan - it is not as easy as you think to keep space. Closing distance is very natural, because space closes, especially in bars, clubs, kebab shops, where you will not have room to jump around keeping distance

I'm a big guy but I can close distance very well

Im sort of confused. I thought this was what I was trying to say. I may not have been clear. The whole thing is to close FIRST. Dont wait for the shoot. Dont wait for anything. Taking the space first gives you the control no matter the venue for the fight. Dont wait for the shoot.

 

[Si-Je]

Im sort of confused. I thought this was what I was trying to say. I may not have been clear. The whole thing is to close FIRST. Dont wait for the shoot. Dont wait for anything. Taking the space first gives you the control no matter the venue for the fight. Dont wait for the shoot.

I know what you mean. I just got hung up on expaining the ideal behind defending a grappler in particular. On the street you won't know their style. If they even have one.

As for the "guard" mentality, I really don't like it at all. Instead of "flexing" with my hips to ward blows, I'd really enjoy chi sau do dispell the power and change the direction of the opponents weight. That's kind of an "now I'm in real trouble" position to fight from. Not your ultamate goal for fighting position.

Graychuan's thinking is more correct.
Play the fight on your terms immediately. Take away your opponents options for defense first rattle out of the box.

I just wanted to feel out folk's mindset in this type of fighting. There seems to be alot of focus on the grappling technique and defense of it. That's probably why I have a hard time "rooting" when I know a grappler is coming in to shoot on me. I mentally freak myself out. thinking, " oh no, he's going to shoot in and pick me up off the ground and slam me." By the time I focus on rooting, their already picking me up, and I've missed all kinds of opportunity to attack and defend.

 

[Nolerama]

Not all MMAers "shoot" from a distance. Actually it's pretty good technique to make contact, gain control of the opponent's body in the clinch, then slide down and go for a take down.

That's pretty much been the idea of shooting in for a takedown after the early UFCs when fighters started respecting grappling arts.

Technique is in the eye of the beholder anyway... As well as an advantageous position. Adaptability and performance make a fighter.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Adding on to Nolerama - shooting is just one form of takedown. It is a popular one because it is hard to stop. Yet there are many many others

I was lucky enough to train under Mauricio Gomez in a grapping seminar a few weeks back and a good part of the session was dedicated to takedowns which included engaging a clinch from distance

My earlier point to Graychuan - I was talking about the persepctive of the BJJ guy. When you are fighting a BJJ guy the last thing you want to do is close distance, because tehy have no long range game
However, my point was that sometimes long range game goes out the window (if you have tight jeans on or you're stuck in a club, kebab shop where you can't move around)

That is why it is often difficult to fight on your terms, because BJJ and wing chun often work in similar ranges and use similar concepts

And Si-Je, whilst it may have seemed like the Gracies are bullies, they are not. They are regularly challenged or bad mouthed by people, and their answer is simple, come and prove it. Instead of smashing,choking and generally hurting a person, they will calmly control and submit the person they fight, showing them that a lot of people who think they can fight often can't or ignore the ground game.

To me, that has more honour and honesty than a lot of the wing chun backstabbing that goes on!! I used to be guilty of challenge matches etc, but soon realised that whilst satisfying didn't really help the wing chun in-fighting. I wish I could have been nicer with my fights to help the other fighter see that they didn't have to go round causing trouble and vice versa. Certainly nowadays I will always protect my class and stand my ground, but I generally don't go looking for trouble.

 

[Si-Je]

I'm glad you don't look for fights anymore, and yes many people talk alot of trash. But that particular gracie fight he didn't just submit the kung fu stylist, he got him to the ground and slapped him repeatedly after he was submitted with intention to humiliate.

But, I don't care to talk about those guys. There are Wing Chun masters and such that I truely don't care about either because of their attitudes.
And the politics of martial arts in general are very undesirable to me.

But in case of gaining control from a standing clinch, we actually were working on that last night in training. Fun stuff! The mindset is still the same, your opponent grabs you, you don't grab back, you strike. It usually takes both hands to get a good clinch, this just tells me that you arms are busy, and thus free's me up to strike almost unchallenged.
We were playing around with the joint lock escapes too, which I'm gaining more confidence with. Our students really liked doing lap sau with the shoot practice, good drill!

I'm kinda glad that the general mindset is still BJJ "rules in the ring" when it comes to WC competing. This will make our opponents rash, over-confident, and predictable whether in or out of the ring. I'm still surprised though, since strikers have been consistantly defeating BJJ in the rings lately. I almost expected opinions to lean towards muy tai or a good boxer in the ring against WC, but it seems people know better. (although a good boxer can bait you into a trap if your too aggressive from too far away).

Now that the baby is older I can train the anti-grappling more, but man! She likes to run all over the mats! I usually train with her in a baby backpack (it's like hauling yoda all over the classroom!) But, I'm lucky my hubbie is the teacher otherwise I couldn't train at all for the next 3-4 years! Probably would have to wait until she's 8 or 10 so she could join in the class, if the instructor would allow that. we do, but most don't.

Anyways, still I wonder.... If a fighter used 100% WC/WT (gotta have WT for the anti-grappling) in the ring, would people even get it? Would they believe it if he won? Would they make excuses for the other fighter, or say that the WC guy was just fighting a "bum" fighter? I think that they wouldn't even understand or reconize the anti-grappling technique, and try to credit BJJ with the techniques. sigh.
But, no matter, as long as he wins, I wouldn't even care if a WC fighter was disqualified! That would suit me fine. Ken Shamrock was disqualified for kneeing a BJJ fighter in the back of the head. Well, then he started another fighting league. Didn't seem to phase him much either.

 

[geezer]

Anyways, still I wonder.... If a fighter used 100% WC/WT (gotta have WT for the anti-grappling) in the ring, would people even get it?

Probably not. But then we're not really about sport fighting are we. Still it would be nice to see more good WC/WT shown in public.

BTW I'm glad you typed "WC/WT". I was a founding member of WT in the USA and I've always hated the political garbage that has divided the WC/WT community. I have recently joined a new WT association that actually recognises the contributions of the various other WT/WC lineages. Clearly you and your husband share this open-minded attitude or you wouldn't be open to the WT "antigrappling" strategies (although I suspect a lot of this has always been in WC/WT at the highest levels).

 

[matsu]

WC/WT?????

CAN SOMEONE POINT ME IN THE DIRECTION OF...oops caps lock sorry.......
a thread to explain some of this.
i am getting confused and very curious about all of the varients/lineages etc etc so need to research this muchly....:idunno:

big fanx and sorry to hijack the thread
matsu

 

[Si-Je]

I don't always type in WT because my typing gets lazy.

WT that I'm familiar with is a direct break off from Lueng Ting with alot of politics. Being that the anti-grappling is origional to Sifu Emin, and has become contagious between like minded WC/WT pracitioners. I like the principles behind the anti-grappling and find it to be ingenious in it's own right. I don't really care to debate if it's "true" wing chun or not, it's true to the nature of Wing Chun and that works for me. (plus it just works better for me than the other ground fighting I've trained in the past.)

I'd just rather use ground fighting technique that will help me defend even if I'm trapped in my car behind the steering wheel, or arm pinned on the ground in a door frame. It's very useful in tight quarters, that's why I figure that in an area with more room, it would still be effective. Unless the opponent is running away, (I hate that!)

My hubbie's still trying to get me to "shoot" my stance into an opponent that is feinting a punch and dodging backwards. (I'd rather wait until they actually "do" something with commitment). That's probably why I suck with multiple attackers. lol!

 

[matsu]

wt=?? sorry beginners ignorance

 

[KamonGuy2]

WT = Wing Tsun
WC = Wing Chun
VT = Ving Tsun

The point is that the Chinese do not have an alphabet like in English, so the Westerners like myself translate the sound
When you say all three of the above or hear a Chinese person say it, they sound exactly the same

They have alternate spellings as the founders of these federations wanted people to identify the differences of their art to another. (ie people would know that WT wasn't exactly the same system taught by Yip Man

Going back to topic - I don't think anyone claims that BJJ rules the ring. In my experience I have found it very easy to destroy a person who uses only BJJ

What we were saying is that you need a ground game if you want to fight in a sport based competition like cage fighting, whether it be BJJ, Sombo, Judo or Catch wrestling.

Overall, wing chun is one of the strongest arts for street fighting.

Yet it is always handy to use other arts to complement it in case things go wrong (you get dragged to the ground, you experience a long range fighter etc)

To answer the original topic, a wing chunner would not last two seconds in the cage if that is all he was using. It is a different format where the rules do not allow many of the chunners techniques. That is not a cop out, just fact. And before people kick off again - as soon as a chunner steps into UFC I will come on here and apologise. So far, no-one has, and cage fighting has been going for a long time

 

[graychuan]

My earlier point to Graychuan - I was talking about the persepctive of the BJJ guy. When you are fighting a BJJ guy the last thing you want to do is close distance...

With all due respect, man, Im going to have to just agree to disagree...but I sincerly appreciate your opinion.

In the arts that I study...fighting is all about closing. Fights do not end until the distance is closed and one or the other ends it. Just because BJJers like to go to the ground doesnt mean they are the only ones that are dangerous in a clinch. In fact, in Kempo we are taught to do a quick throw or takedown if there is a stalemate in the clinch or just when there is an opportunity if it improves the situation for us.
As far as fighting ranges go....this is a good concept for discussion and classification of techniques,concepts, and thoery.... but , ultimately, my opinion is that there is only ONE range in fighting.

 

[Si-Je]

Don't forget wing Tzun! lol! (just found out it's a new federation)

I still feel that the anti-grappling is plenty effective against wrestlers, and grapplers. Leg bong sau! Chi Sau with the legs! Neat stuff!:headbangin:

 

[KamonGuy2]

With all due respect, man, Im going to have to just agree to disagree...but I sincerly appreciate your opinion.

In the arts that I study...fighting is all about closing. Fights do not end until the distance is closed and one or the other ends it. Just because BJJers like to go to the ground doesnt mean they are the only ones that are dangerous in a clinch. In fact, in Kempo we are taught to do a quick throw or takedown if there is a stalemate in the clinch or just when there is an opportunity if it improves the situation for us.
As far as fighting ranges go....this is a good concept for discussion and classification of techniques,concepts, and thoery.... but , ultimately, my opinion is that there is only ONE range in fighting.

Oh dear....
My advice to you, would be to get down to a BJJ gym and try it out

I used to think that wing chun could not be stopped and was the ultimate until I was mugged a few years back and it makes you realise that if you are attacked and forced to the ground, your wing chun is very limited
I have since been to various arts and sparred light and hard and found that wing chun didn't too badly, but had gaps

Wing chun is a great style (which is why I practice it religiously) but it has limits - wing chun people who acknowledge this are far more wise than those teachers who preach that wing chun is the ultimate and will beat any other style

As for short range game, my point was that if you fight a martial artist who specialises at a certain range DO NOT play his game. That is why you will see people in the cage fighting at distance (swing kicks, push kicks, wild punches etc)
As I said, in the case of the streetfight you will not often have this option, which is why wing chun is very good. However, if you do that against a BJJ guy, you are going to struggle

This is why, the cage and streetfighting are two seperate things