Wing Tzun in the cage

[Nabakatsu]

So.. I've seen a fair amount of videos of people who train WC/WT and goto in a ring, and than seemingly to me, look as if they aren't really using it, maybe it's specific to my lineage, level of experience, or some other factor.. but yeah. I'm curious to know why the footwork never seems to be utitlized, and none of the "fixed hand positions" there seems to be no sensitivity, no adherence to the principals, I just can't recognize wing tzun aside from their attempts of trying to control the center line, can someone break down, preferably someone from ebmas or Leung tings system as far as the footwork aspect goes anyways, no offense to anyone else, it's all I know, but.. it seems like very effective footwork, and every wc/wt fighter i've seen in the ring moves like everyone else, a kick boxer of sorts.. it just seems like that could really have a lot of success if done properly.. I know the gloves reduce sensitivity.. but you'd think you would retain something................... why would chi sau techniques fail in a ring, or why do people not try to use them? Where would WT/WC fail in the ring DUE TO STAND UP fighters, I know the ground has it's own issues, but being able to apply WT/WC is by far my main concern before I even dream of competing in a cage let alone going through some sort of san da or bjj training. I think ebmas ground system is highly effective, but a lot of that would probably get a fellow banned. Thanks for your time!

 

[wushuguy]

Out of curiosity, have you ever tried to chi sao with someone who does boxing or wrestling? Chi sao, isn't and wasn't made to be for fighting, just a training too. so we are very unlikely to see it in a match. Footwork wise, I think it's up to the fighter, In class when we did mon sau, the stances and footwork, every thing was paid attention to and analyzed. But in more or less real situation or sparring with other disciplines, foot work needs to be more alive, we can use the turning stances and bracing stances when available, but we wouldn't stay in that for long...

I'm not sure how much experience you have, but if you have friends in other disciplines, Karate, MMA, etc. you could try freestyle with them, kinda loose on the rules so you can feel out what works for you. You might be surprised at how you adapt your wing chun and how it will look afterwards.

 

[Nabakatsu]

Oh yeah, I'm a complete novice, I've practiced for like 8 months or so at this point, so.. yeah.. no chi sau for me, seems like it should be more adaptable, especially the footwork, but I'm pretty sure my lineage's footwork isn't the same as most, I wonder what yip man in his fighting prime would look like in ufc...
Thanks for your reply!

 

[mook jong man]

I also have never seen anybody go into a match with any semblance of the guard or stance as I was taught it. What it really comes down to is the fact that we have never actually seen some one who was good at Wing Chun and with many years experience go in the ring or cage . Usually you find their credentials are very vague , or they haven't trained for very long .

I have seen one video of a guy that was supposed to have trained for a quite a few years , but soon as the match started he just ran straight in like an idiot with his hands down and got picked up and slammed .

I'm sorry but if you are well trained you just don't suddenly forget how to move and how to at least have your hands up on the centreline , those things should be embedded into the very core of your being.

Or is it that they have willing decided to abandon every single Wing Chun concept and principle they have ever learned , Why bother learning it then , better off to have been a kickboxer right from the start.

All I know is that the stance I have been doing for 20 years is exactly the same stance I will use in a fight , same goes for the centreline guard and all the techniques.

Even when I was doing another style eg FMA knife and stick sparring , when ever I got under pressure out would come the Wing Chun and before I knew it my arms would be out in the correct angles and I would be square on to my opponent much to the consternation of my instructor.

So I will reiterate that we haven't seen anybody that was good or have been training in the system long enough for the style to be second nature to them ever enter the octagon or cage.

The gloves are a problem because they reduce the impact of our close range punching force , and in a close range system such as ours where centimetres count , you need every bit of force you can get.


Wing Chun was never meant to be a fisticuff sport it was always meant to be used bare handed for self defence , the deflections work better that way .
As has been said Chi Sau is only a training tool , it is a means to and end.
It is for that millisecond in a fight where your arms are in contact with his , at that point he has to think what to do . You on the other hand don't have to think , due to your Chi Sau your arms will react without any conscious thought on your part .

Which just might be the split second edge you need to win the fight . Do not engage in unnecessary Chi sau with an opponent , your only objective is to strike straight through the centreline and hit him in the head . Only if there is an obstruction to your strike will you engage in Chi sau to clear the obstruction with the minimum of movement and then continue further striking .

Things like a Tan Sau = counter pierce against a straight punch are very cumbersome with gloves on . With 16 oz gloves on forget about it , they are just too big , and make your techniques very sloppy and way off centreline.

Its not too bad with head gear on and light sort of bag gloves , whilst they do reduce sensitivity you can still get in close and form your hand into a latch and use the bottom of your forearms to control as you strike.

I actually found the headgear to be more of a problem because it cuts down your peripheral vision and you find yourself getting hit with wide hooks that you would normally stop quite easily , same goes for the low kicks , you will see the shoulder move but you won't see the kick.

Thats just reminded me of an exercise we used to do , get your partner to stand in a side on stance with his lead arm out in a bent position . Get in very close and start throwing chain punches on the top of his arm , you are aiming to hit through but still maintain contact with his arm.

Use the bottom of your forearms to control his arm . Stay relaxed and use the angles of your arms as you chain punch. What you will find if you do it correctly is that chain punching has a built in trapping effect. The partner should find that his arm is controlled by the forward force of the incoming strike and is being dragged down by the shearing effect of the retracting punch.

Now try it with a latch between each strike for even greater control and effect on his balance. Throw a punch same as before but this time after you strike change your hand to a Fook Sau , sink your elbow and hook your fingers around his arm in a relaxed motion.

At the same time you do this strike through with your other hand , then do the same as what you did with the other hand and keep doing it in a constant punch , latch , punch , latch , punch , latch etc . Punch and then drop your elbow in the proper angle , if you do it correct the partner should feel as though his arm is going to get pulled out of its socket and get a mild case of whip lash.

The next stage is instead of the partner standing there like a statue he is now going to resist and try to move his arm around while you have control of it.
You keep putting pressure on him by moving forward in your stance trying to affect his balance , it is important to stay relaxed . The partner will find that the more he tenses up and resists the worse it will be for him as he tries to use strength against your latch.