A number of you guys have stated that you'd really like to see some WC/WT used in cage fighting. A lot of this conversation was kind of off topic on another thread. So here you go. Could WC/WT be used effectively in the cage... or at least be part of a good cage fighter's toolbox? If so, what would it take to produce this kind of a fighter? And, would the emergence of WC/WT in the sport of MMA / Cage fighting be good for our art, or just degrade it?
Getting WC/WT into the Cage...
- Thread starter geezer
- Start date
Si-Je
Master Black Belt
Wow, you covered the great question.
Could WC/WT be used in the cage?
I definately think so, and more of it than alot of people think. Although I think a MMA fighter could benefit alot from just the very basics of Wing Chun in the ring, about Grade 1-3 stuff. (or 4 depending on your lineage).
Now a more advanced practitioner could really have fun in there. I would think especially from the WT lineage utilizing WT escapes from joint locks, grabs, and the ever so very unpopular "anti-grappling". Now, an advanced WC person (especially Fung lineage) would be cool too see. But, that would be alot of breaking the structure and I don't think many people would "see" it.
But, any advanced practicioner would be in danger of being disqualified, and my hesitate when defending and attacking giving the MMA guy an advantage. Hummmm, it would depend on how adaptable the WC/WT guy was in the ring under rules.
Would this diminish Wing Chun if it because more popular for MMA stylists to "cross-train" WT/WC for their cage fighting?
Man, a double edged sword there.
I say, yes it would in that more people would wish to "bastardize" the art to fit under cage rules. And that the majority of people would not be learning and committed to the entire art.
But, also no. It could strengthen WC/WT in the fact that it could be proven in the ring, a medium that people hold all arts to when it comes to the question of the arts "realistic" effectiveness. And WC/WT might evolve yet again in a fashion that would benefit the art for todays fighter. If monitored under the knowledgable screwenty of a skillful and openminded master...
Definate pros and cons to this issue. We've thought about this alot at home. I feel that it's time for WT/WC to come out of the closet, so to speak, in America and prove it's metal once again in combat. Since MMA is the face of the "new" fighter, or martial artist, and people feel that it covers all areas of combat, I think this needs to be totally challenged.
For it doesn't make one a "well rounded" fighter as many think it does. It doesn't prepare one for the street. Or as my husband faced today, four guys trying to mug him on the train. I think it's time to get close quarters real street fighting in the ring to show people something different, and for most new.
Just my view, when so many women flock to MMA and such because it's popular and seems like an art that covers everything because they fight on the ground, I really want WC/WT out in the ring as much as possible win or lose showing folks something more effective and something formidable even in sport.
As for training for such a fight. Since this angle is almost total speculation for anyone who trys to answer it.
A MMA fighter that knows other styles. We would try training an experienced fighter 100% WC/WT for 6 months 3-5 days a week in two hour sessions. Since the MMA fighter already has a skill set, we'd want to focus on teaching them the new skill of wing chun without interferrance of other styles techniques. At the end of this period, start sparring sessions where they use all the styles and techniques they know in the ring. See what comes up. Then work the fighter on their strengths whether it's WC or other styles. (Makes me wonder if the fighter would stop using other styles of striking and kicking altogether. I wonder this, because that is what has happened with everyone of our students. Once they get comfortable with WC they just stop using thier other styles when sparring completely.)
Now, this is the hypothesis for a total experiement! lol! Has this been done? Have we done it? no. But, this is the way we'd try it out the first time. If this didn't produce the results we wanted in the fighter.
Then we'd try another approach.
Hubbie's going to have a MMA class up and running at the gym that he's working for in a few months. I'll get back to you and let you know how that's going. If he's really mixing other arts in as much, if it morphs into just a 100% wing chun class in disguise, or if the WC suffers completely to the watering down of technique for the sake of "sportsmanship".
Great question! Great post!
Could WC/WT be used in the cage?
I definately think so, and more of it than alot of people think. Although I think a MMA fighter could benefit alot from just the very basics of Wing Chun in the ring, about Grade 1-3 stuff. (or 4 depending on your lineage).
Now a more advanced practitioner could really have fun in there. I would think especially from the WT lineage utilizing WT escapes from joint locks, grabs, and the ever so very unpopular "anti-grappling". Now, an advanced WC person (especially Fung lineage) would be cool too see. But, that would be alot of breaking the structure and I don't think many people would "see" it.
But, any advanced practicioner would be in danger of being disqualified, and my hesitate when defending and attacking giving the MMA guy an advantage. Hummmm, it would depend on how adaptable the WC/WT guy was in the ring under rules.
Would this diminish Wing Chun if it because more popular for MMA stylists to "cross-train" WT/WC for their cage fighting?
Man, a double edged sword there.
I say, yes it would in that more people would wish to "bastardize" the art to fit under cage rules. And that the majority of people would not be learning and committed to the entire art.
But, also no. It could strengthen WC/WT in the fact that it could be proven in the ring, a medium that people hold all arts to when it comes to the question of the arts "realistic" effectiveness. And WC/WT might evolve yet again in a fashion that would benefit the art for todays fighter. If monitored under the knowledgable screwenty of a skillful and openminded master...
Definate pros and cons to this issue. We've thought about this alot at home. I feel that it's time for WT/WC to come out of the closet, so to speak, in America and prove it's metal once again in combat. Since MMA is the face of the "new" fighter, or martial artist, and people feel that it covers all areas of combat, I think this needs to be totally challenged.
For it doesn't make one a "well rounded" fighter as many think it does. It doesn't prepare one for the street. Or as my husband faced today, four guys trying to mug him on the train. I think it's time to get close quarters real street fighting in the ring to show people something different, and for most new.
Just my view, when so many women flock to MMA and such because it's popular and seems like an art that covers everything because they fight on the ground, I really want WC/WT out in the ring as much as possible win or lose showing folks something more effective and something formidable even in sport.
As for training for such a fight. Since this angle is almost total speculation for anyone who trys to answer it.
A MMA fighter that knows other styles. We would try training an experienced fighter 100% WC/WT for 6 months 3-5 days a week in two hour sessions. Since the MMA fighter already has a skill set, we'd want to focus on teaching them the new skill of wing chun without interferrance of other styles techniques. At the end of this period, start sparring sessions where they use all the styles and techniques they know in the ring. See what comes up. Then work the fighter on their strengths whether it's WC or other styles. (Makes me wonder if the fighter would stop using other styles of striking and kicking altogether. I wonder this, because that is what has happened with everyone of our students. Once they get comfortable with WC they just stop using thier other styles when sparring completely.)
Now, this is the hypothesis for a total experiement! lol! Has this been done? Have we done it? no. But, this is the way we'd try it out the first time. If this didn't produce the results we wanted in the fighter.
Then we'd try another approach.
Hubbie's going to have a MMA class up and running at the gym that he's working for in a few months. I'll get back to you and let you know how that's going. If he's really mixing other arts in as much, if it morphs into just a 100% wing chun class in disguise, or if the WC suffers completely to the watering down of technique for the sake of "sportsmanship".
Great question! Great post!
I have used wing chun techniques and movement/energy/principles in cage fighting, MMA tournaments and karate knockdown tournaments to great success
Admittedly, they weren't exactly the UFC but I found that many principles within wing chun are essential to improve a cage fighters game
As we have argued before, a wing chunner couldn't walk into a cage and just stick to wing chun technique. He would have to adapt it to incorperate long range striking game/defence (boxing) and grappling defence (if anyone mentions anti-grappling I'm outta here)
Alan Orr is already doing a lot of MMA stuff using good wing chun mixed with Catch wrestling and a little bit of other stuff
I know that Kevin Chan trains with and teaches pro cage fighters and they have found a lot of the wing chun stuff interesting
You will often find that many UFC guys have actually dabbled in wing chun previously (but usually don't admit it)
A lot of the time cage fighters merely categorize the cage in three ways -
Clinchwork
Grappling
Standup
To start listing every art they have done is sometimes over complicated and they will just call it 'standup defence'
Kevin Chan is in his 40s and can hold his own to many MMA guys. Before people start shouting 'yeah but he's a black belt in BJJ' - it is true, but he doesn't use that much unless he has to. He is an excellent standup fighter
Admittedly, they weren't exactly the UFC but I found that many principles within wing chun are essential to improve a cage fighters game
As we have argued before, a wing chunner couldn't walk into a cage and just stick to wing chun technique. He would have to adapt it to incorperate long range striking game/defence (boxing) and grappling defence (if anyone mentions anti-grappling I'm outta here)
Alan Orr is already doing a lot of MMA stuff using good wing chun mixed with Catch wrestling and a little bit of other stuff
I know that Kevin Chan trains with and teaches pro cage fighters and they have found a lot of the wing chun stuff interesting
You will often find that many UFC guys have actually dabbled in wing chun previously (but usually don't admit it)
A lot of the time cage fighters merely categorize the cage in three ways -
Clinchwork
Grappling
Standup
To start listing every art they have done is sometimes over complicated and they will just call it 'standup defence'
Kevin Chan is in his 40s and can hold his own to many MMA guys. Before people start shouting 'yeah but he's a black belt in BJJ' - it is true, but he doesn't use that much unless he has to. He is an excellent standup fighter
dnovice
Blue Belt
Very good question. I think WC concepts are very vital to making a good fighter. With some addition of ground game you are well on your way to becoming a good UFC fighter.
I say concepts because we WC'ers usually expect to see chain punches and running down a person's center. This is not always possible and generally not too advisable because it makes your attacks predictable.
WC concepts are gold and applied with thinking outside the box you will be a great fighter.
I'll be competing in a lei tai (full contact) competition this May if my knee heals well by then. From what i hear Wing Chun guys won the competition in 2007. Hopefully, I'll fare well myself.
I say concepts because we WC'ers usually expect to see chain punches and running down a person's center. This is not always possible and generally not too advisable because it makes your attacks predictable.
WC concepts are gold and applied with thinking outside the box you will be a great fighter.
I'll be competing in a lei tai (full contact) competition this May if my knee heals well by then. From what i hear Wing Chun guys won the competition in 2007. Hopefully, I'll fare well myself.
dnovice
Blue Belt
Most definitely.
