Using WC in the Cage?
- Thread starter Si-Je
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Well it's the same thing here as it would be for any attempt to use anything else in the cage: the cage will have certain rules that will require certain modifications, just the same way the street will have a certain LACK of rules that will require modification from just the "school" atmosphere.
The only difference will be in just exactly what the decided-upon rules will be in the particular "cage", and how much change is needed.
The only difference will be in just exactly what the decided-upon rules will be in the particular "cage", and how much change is needed.
- Thread Starter
- #3
Awesome response!
I figure that it would be relatively simple to utilize basic WC technique and concepts in "ruled" fighting.
Just keep it simple, stick with basic techniques. If you use too much advanced technique you could be disqualified because of WC's street fighting nature.
But we've found that it's not too hard to "clean it up" a bit for continious sparring, cage/MMA fighting rules would be interesting to experiment with, and even point sparring.
I figure that it would be relatively simple to utilize basic WC technique and concepts in "ruled" fighting.
Just keep it simple, stick with basic techniques. If you use too much advanced technique you could be disqualified because of WC's street fighting nature.
But we've found that it's not too hard to "clean it up" a bit for continious sparring, cage/MMA fighting rules would be interesting to experiment with, and even point sparring.
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Right. You may not always be in the "by-the-book" WC posture from with the knees in and the hands at solar plexus level straight in line, but certain of the movement principles I'm sure you could keep intact and use.
This is a common misconception i see with a lot of people who think that just learning a drill or an aspect of an art in a static drill type of thing means that if you're not stuck in that position from bell to bell, you aren't "using your art". They don't get that it's not so much a "fighting" style as it is a *training* style.
This is a common misconception i see with a lot of people who think that just learning a drill or an aspect of an art in a static drill type of thing means that if you're not stuck in that position from bell to bell, you aren't "using your art". They don't get that it's not so much a "fighting" style as it is a *training* style.
naneek
Green Belt
i agree that various tecniques can be used in the ring and can see no problem with doing so, i dont kow why some feel that it cant be done with rules surely you modify what you use against any opponent on the street or otherwise. some tecniques are crippling, if u can decide not to use them on the street (unless as a last resort) then u can decide not to use them in the ring. just my opinion
Danny T
Senior Master
Forms,
Drills,
Applications.
I attempt to convey to my stuents that Forms and drills are for training & understanding. Application is for reality and reality, more often not, doesn't look anything like forms.
Drills,
Applications.
I attempt to convey to my stuents that Forms and drills are for training & understanding. Application is for reality and reality, more often not, doesn't look anything like forms.
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Exactly.
qwksilver61
Black Belt
Just do it!.........yeah go for it!
My view point is that WC CANT be used in the ring because of the rules. If we can bend what we're taught to make it so we can use only WC in the ring, then they would need to bend some set of rules for the others, such as no going to the ground, to make things more fair. Because in a street fight, concrete and hard surfaces usually play a part in the decision of whether or not it goes to the ground.
CuongNhuka
Senior Master
The only really dangerous part of using Wing Chun in an MMA ring (or at all) is actually the guard. If you and your opponent are not at punching range (or closer), you have a blind spot to the side and underneith your lead arm. And it is harder then you think to defend against rib shots in the instance.
The thing is Brock, you can still punch from the ground, and many Wing Chun techniques can be applied to grappling situations.
The thing is Brock, you can still punch from the ground, and many Wing Chun techniques can be applied to grappling situations.
I too am a preacher of this. I just know that we'd be using it ALL the time because cage usually = straight to the ground. It would be better just to take up BJJ.
The ground is our defense in the streets against grapplers.
To the contrary, I don't see why Wing Chun principles wouldn't translate well to Cage fighting, but as Danny T pointed out, it will look a lot different. I think a bigger problem is finding enough real fighters who are willing to invest the time it takes to learn enough good Wing Chun to work for them in a cage fight. They will probably see quicker results with a good MMA/ Cage-fight coach who really knows the sport. Also, most Wing Chun sifus, even the really good ones, don't have the experience or interest in this area.
As far as not going to the ground on concrete, Brocklee, that's not always a choice you get to make. I've been taken down hard, and NO, I didn't like it! But it can happen unless your skills are god-like, so better deal with it. Some WT anti-grappling training is good, and some grappling work would be better. Ask Kamon guy--he's the WC/BJJ guy. I've said all I know.
KamonGuy2
Master of Arts
Geezer is spot on. I've fought on the floor on gravel, sand, wooden floors, concrete floors, pub floors (mix of carpet, glass and vomit!!). But to be honest, you don't really feel it that much in the fight. You are more worried about surviving the fight
Wing chun is not built for cage fighting. This point has been raised before and done to death on various forums. It is good to bring it up once in a while if new things have been discovered or martial art technique has changed to allow room for new points to the debate. But so far they haven't
Simply put, no art can survive on its own in that kind of format (cage)
Many of the first UFC fighters Dan Severn, Royce Gracie learnt this very quickly. Now they use combinations of arts, or at least are aware of them
In the street, core arts (wing chun, karate) do well, because of the basics of stance, energies, power etc and the short range nature of these arts
When you approach a guy from one side of the ring, (who knows a martial art), you have to be a little more broader in your knowledge of martial arts
Why is this?
Because, in the street, wing chun is natural and works on reaction and muscle memory in short range situations
Many arts do not. MT works on the premise that you are going to see your opponent throw an attack and fight in a sparred range
They are two different worlds
This is not to say that you cannot blur between the lines
Certainly MT is a great self defence art, but many fighters struggle because they are used to warming up before a fight
And in tournaments I have been in, I have used sensitivity in clinchwork or on the floor etc
The greatest advantage has been in preserving energy due to minimal movement which is taught through wing chun
I do not dance around when I fight. I plant my feet and hit hard
Whilst I take a few hits, it means that I eventually get my opponent and when I hit, my whole body is behind it
Wing chun is not built for cage fighting. This point has been raised before and done to death on various forums. It is good to bring it up once in a while if new things have been discovered or martial art technique has changed to allow room for new points to the debate. But so far they haven't
Simply put, no art can survive on its own in that kind of format (cage)
Many of the first UFC fighters Dan Severn, Royce Gracie learnt this very quickly. Now they use combinations of arts, or at least are aware of them
In the street, core arts (wing chun, karate) do well, because of the basics of stance, energies, power etc and the short range nature of these arts
When you approach a guy from one side of the ring, (who knows a martial art), you have to be a little more broader in your knowledge of martial arts
Why is this?
Because, in the street, wing chun is natural and works on reaction and muscle memory in short range situations
Many arts do not. MT works on the premise that you are going to see your opponent throw an attack and fight in a sparred range
They are two different worlds
This is not to say that you cannot blur between the lines
Certainly MT is a great self defence art, but many fighters struggle because they are used to warming up before a fight
And in tournaments I have been in, I have used sensitivity in clinchwork or on the floor etc
The greatest advantage has been in preserving energy due to minimal movement which is taught through wing chun
I do not dance around when I fight. I plant my feet and hit hard
Whilst I take a few hits, it means that I eventually get my opponent and when I hit, my whole body is behind it
dungeonworks
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Officially the end of this thread. Great post Kamon! :ultracool
- Thread Starter
- #16
Honestly, I've been watching UFC fighters and their use of technique is pretty limited. I understand that they drill and use what seems to work best in the ring. Now BJJ was designed especially for this type of fighting.
I've played around with a couple of BJJ students. one in particular I asked to attack me in a BJJ manner. He started at the far end of the room (and it was a large room) and ran full force towards me like a low football tackle. Is this a practical approach to attack? Or the seemingly favorite, feint straight punch to the face and quick shoot in to the knees?
Personally I'd never, never use those techniques in sport fighting or street. These guys depend too much on strength, which works for these strong men. But, as the BJJ kid ran towards me, I found it pretty simple to keep him from taking me to the ground. (I'll admit that it was intimidating to have a large guy come at me like that) but use using sensitivity and re-direction I was able to keep my feet.
When I studied Japanese Ju-Jitsu we utilized many joint locks from a standing position. In the ring this is largely negated simply by the fact that they tape up the wrists, and to execute these locking techniques requires manipulation of the wrist of a larger opponent. So, no. Many of my old groundfighting techniques won't work. Judo thowing is more difficult on these MMA fighters simply because they jump backwards as they punch to make sure they aren't easilly taken to the ground. This also makes it a bit trickier if one is to chain punch effectively. With the american boxing they use, it is easy to get setup by a decent boxer if you run forward too soon chain punching. And I'm not talking about trying to trap the opponent or what many people think of intercepting fist.
It's just a theory of mine, but I really believe that if one sticks to the basics you learn in WC in the first year will be very effective in the ring.
When we had the school open many MMA fighters came to the school to check out the WC we taught. I used to theorize that the WC advanced stance (one leg forward) left a WC fighter more vulnerable to BJJ take-downs. My teacher proved me wrong when a very large practicioner of Jeet-kune Do and BJJ shot into his stance while sparring. My teacher just rooted and stood there, softly slapping the guys back of the head, and applying elbows while the guy was still trying to take him to the ground. My teacher/hubbie didn't actually hit the guy in the back of the head, just let him know that he was open and in danger. This went on for several seconds and the BJJ opponent stopped trying the takedown. This blew my old theory out of the water. Advanced stance isn't more vulnerable.
I've fought in tournament and stayed within their sparring rules using 100% Wing Chun. And won my match. It was a little more difficult than it should have been, but using only Grade 1 and 2 technique kept me well withing the range of their rules for contact. And they didn't allow "grabbing" a kicking leg so we left out the use of gan sau (even though you don't actually grab the kicking leg, but they could'nt see that from the judges position).
In the cage more is allowed. I figure as long as you don't punch or elbow the back of the head and neck, bui ge the eyes, kick the groin, bite, or chop the neck and throught it still leaves alot of room for plenty of other WC technique. Way more than a karate continious sparring match.
As for the BJJ style ground fighting. No way. Takes way too much time and if you opponent knows BJJ as well, it gives them time to counter and rest. I've seen these guys get into a position on the ground to catch their breath. I'd stick to the anti-grappling and keep your feet long enough to keep the pressure on these excellent atheletes to wear them down. These guys are wicked in shape! Don't play their game.
Work cardio so you can chain punch all day long, and watch your opponents pattern. Ah, pattern!
These guys all have a pattern to their fighting. Every single fighter I've seen I can start to read their fighting patern within a few minutes.
I've got to be careful not to watch too much MMA because after awhile you start to think like that type of fighter. Their limited in their thinking when it comes to fighting. For example, when one is on the ground with another opponent in mount position, these fighters never seem to realize that they can still punch, deflect, and elbow while their under a attacker. Only because that's just not what they've been taught. They just don't see the opportunity. When I first started WC Pac sau freaked me out because I always thought that if an opponent had their "guard up" that I had to go around their arms or feint. But with basic pac sau you simply go straight through their guard! Apiffiany! For years I was in martial arts and never saw these openings for attack!
It's all in the mind of the fighter. What you percieve. And how you choose to deal with the energy of an attack coming at you. These guys come in strong, and stiff with much force, perfect for utilizing WC concepts.
As I said, this is all pretty good theory. I'm hoping to see some WC guys try out the ring soon.
I've played around with a couple of BJJ students. one in particular I asked to attack me in a BJJ manner. He started at the far end of the room (and it was a large room) and ran full force towards me like a low football tackle. Is this a practical approach to attack? Or the seemingly favorite, feint straight punch to the face and quick shoot in to the knees?
Personally I'd never, never use those techniques in sport fighting or street. These guys depend too much on strength, which works for these strong men. But, as the BJJ kid ran towards me, I found it pretty simple to keep him from taking me to the ground. (I'll admit that it was intimidating to have a large guy come at me like that) but use using sensitivity and re-direction I was able to keep my feet.
When I studied Japanese Ju-Jitsu we utilized many joint locks from a standing position. In the ring this is largely negated simply by the fact that they tape up the wrists, and to execute these locking techniques requires manipulation of the wrist of a larger opponent. So, no. Many of my old groundfighting techniques won't work. Judo thowing is more difficult on these MMA fighters simply because they jump backwards as they punch to make sure they aren't easilly taken to the ground. This also makes it a bit trickier if one is to chain punch effectively. With the american boxing they use, it is easy to get setup by a decent boxer if you run forward too soon chain punching. And I'm not talking about trying to trap the opponent or what many people think of intercepting fist.
It's just a theory of mine, but I really believe that if one sticks to the basics you learn in WC in the first year will be very effective in the ring.
When we had the school open many MMA fighters came to the school to check out the WC we taught. I used to theorize that the WC advanced stance (one leg forward) left a WC fighter more vulnerable to BJJ take-downs. My teacher proved me wrong when a very large practicioner of Jeet-kune Do and BJJ shot into his stance while sparring. My teacher just rooted and stood there, softly slapping the guys back of the head, and applying elbows while the guy was still trying to take him to the ground. My teacher/hubbie didn't actually hit the guy in the back of the head, just let him know that he was open and in danger. This went on for several seconds and the BJJ opponent stopped trying the takedown. This blew my old theory out of the water. Advanced stance isn't more vulnerable.
I've fought in tournament and stayed within their sparring rules using 100% Wing Chun. And won my match. It was a little more difficult than it should have been, but using only Grade 1 and 2 technique kept me well withing the range of their rules for contact. And they didn't allow "grabbing" a kicking leg so we left out the use of gan sau (even though you don't actually grab the kicking leg, but they could'nt see that from the judges position).
In the cage more is allowed. I figure as long as you don't punch or elbow the back of the head and neck, bui ge the eyes, kick the groin, bite, or chop the neck and throught it still leaves alot of room for plenty of other WC technique. Way more than a karate continious sparring match.
As for the BJJ style ground fighting. No way. Takes way too much time and if you opponent knows BJJ as well, it gives them time to counter and rest. I've seen these guys get into a position on the ground to catch their breath. I'd stick to the anti-grappling and keep your feet long enough to keep the pressure on these excellent atheletes to wear them down. These guys are wicked in shape! Don't play their game.
Work cardio so you can chain punch all day long, and watch your opponents pattern. Ah, pattern!
These guys all have a pattern to their fighting. Every single fighter I've seen I can start to read their fighting patern within a few minutes.
I've got to be careful not to watch too much MMA because after awhile you start to think like that type of fighter. Their limited in their thinking when it comes to fighting. For example, when one is on the ground with another opponent in mount position, these fighters never seem to realize that they can still punch, deflect, and elbow while their under a attacker. Only because that's just not what they've been taught. They just don't see the opportunity. When I first started WC Pac sau freaked me out because I always thought that if an opponent had their "guard up" that I had to go around their arms or feint. But with basic pac sau you simply go straight through their guard! Apiffiany! For years I was in martial arts and never saw these openings for attack!
It's all in the mind of the fighter. What you percieve. And how you choose to deal with the energy of an attack coming at you. These guys come in strong, and stiff with much force, perfect for utilizing WC concepts.
As I said, this is all pretty good theory. I'm hoping to see some WC guys try out the ring soon.
mook jong man
Senior Master
As a Wing Chun guy myself i pretty much agree with what you said but i would add that Wing Chun people need to practice sprawling.
In our school we used to sometimes practice chi sau with a partner trying to take you down at random. With out exception most people got taken down the first couple of times they did it but after a while they were able to sprawl and stop the attacker completing the grip.
The sprawl is too good a technique to be ignored, im only 5 foot 3 and its worked pretty well for me.
In our school we used to sometimes practice chi sau with a partner trying to take you down at random. With out exception most people got taken down the first couple of times they did it but after a while they were able to sprawl and stop the attacker completing the grip.
The sprawl is too good a technique to be ignored, im only 5 foot 3 and its worked pretty well for me.
- Thread Starter
- #18
I totally agree about sprawling and I think that practicing that with chi sau is an awesome idea! My hubbie/teacher loves it too.
We do incorporate sprawling in our class, very practical and handy reflex for stopping a takedown.
My hubbie said you could probably practice sprawling with lat/lop sau too.
But it's not singularly a MMA technique. We did similar techniques in Japanese Ju-Jitsu, only you incorporated a front choke, tucking the opponents head in your stomach as you clamp their throat with your two forearms and sort of "belly flop" on top of the back of their head. Taking them to the ground face first. Mean stuff.
Again, great idea with the way you train sprawling!
We do incorporate sprawling in our class, very practical and handy reflex for stopping a takedown.
My hubbie said you could probably practice sprawling with lat/lop sau too.
But it's not singularly a MMA technique. We did similar techniques in Japanese Ju-Jitsu, only you incorporated a front choke, tucking the opponents head in your stomach as you clamp their throat with your two forearms and sort of "belly flop" on top of the back of their head. Taking them to the ground face first. Mean stuff.
Again, great idea with the way you train sprawling!
CuongNhuka
Senior Master
What I don't understand about shooting is: why does NO one ever knee the guy in the face, or wrap there arm around the guys neck?
mook jong man
Senior Master
Glad you liked it, i think chi sau is a great platform for practising a lot of different reflex drills from.
One of my other instructors who is very much into reality based self defence used to get us to do chi sau and while you were rolling, a third person would come up to the side and try to stab you with a rubber knife or even the person your rolling with would pull out the knife.
It was a great way to work on your awareness because as you would know in a real situation you tend to get the tunnel vision effect and only concentrate on the person in front of you and forget about their friends standing off to the side.
There is a lot of drills that can be done with chi sau if you use your imagination and i hate to say this cliche think outside the square or should i say circle which would be more apt for chi sau.
One of my other instructors who is very much into reality based self defence used to get us to do chi sau and while you were rolling, a third person would come up to the side and try to stab you with a rubber knife or even the person your rolling with would pull out the knife.
It was a great way to work on your awareness because as you would know in a real situation you tend to get the tunnel vision effect and only concentrate on the person in front of you and forget about their friends standing off to the side.
There is a lot of drills that can be done with chi sau if you use your imagination and i hate to say this cliche think outside the square or should i say circle which would be more apt for chi sau.
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