United States A Nation of Cowards??

[elder999]

Theodore Roosevelt on Immigrants and being an AMERICAN

Teedie might be the last of those of his generation I'd accuse of being racist-my family shipped a great deal of his father, Theodore Sr.'s glass into the U.S. However:

Theodore Roosevelt, in his The Winning of the West:

The settler and pioneer have at bottom had justice on their side; this great continent could not have been kept as nothing but a game preserve for squalid savages.

"The most ultimately righteous of all wars is a war with savages."

"American and Indian, Boer and Zulu, Cossack and Tartar, New Zealander and Maori, – in each case the victor, horrible though many of his deeds are, has laid deep the foundations for the future greatness of a mighty people."

"..it is of incalculable importance that America, Australia, and Siberia should pass out of the hands of their red, black, and yellow aboriginal owners, and become the heritage of the dominant world races."

"The world would have halted had it not been for the Teutonic conquests in alien lands; but the victories of Moslem over Christian have always proved a curse in the end. Nothing but sheer evil has come from the victories of Turk and Tartar."

On the other hand, you are when you are. He also said:

"the only wise and honorable and Christian thing to do is to treat each black man and each white man strictly on his merits as a man."

Additionally, Roosevelt said, while speaking to a heavily-armed crowd in Butte, Montana during his 1903 Western tour:

"I fought beside colored troops at Santiago [Cuba], and I hold that if a man is good enough to be put up and shot at then he is good enough for me to do what I can to get him a square deal."

I dig Teedie a lot, but one should pay attention to everything he said and did-even if one agrees with it. On that one, I sure do-yeah, people who live here should learn to speak English, but they shouldn't forget where they came from, or the languages of their fathers and mothers, any more than his family did-he did, after all, speak Dutch, as most of his family still did, in addition to the German and French he studied in school.

 

[jarrod]

part of why many white americans refer to themselves as scottish, irish, german, etc. is because i think many of us feel that we gave up a somewhat more interesting culture in order to be perceived as mainstream americans. it worked; white people still sit atop the social heirarchy, but it has been at the price of culture or a sense of connection to our history. you can see this in any wave of white immigration: irish, italians, germans, et al all had to largely seperate themselves from their native language, clothing, customs, & culture in order to fit into american society. so i suspect that deep down some of us feel a little jealous that we had to give it up & others don't by "refusing to assimilate". personally i like multi-culturalism, it makes things more interesting, & this country is big enough to accomodate all different types.

jf

 

[Archangel M]

You are correct, you are WHEN you are.

It leaves one to wonder what the USA would look like now if the settlers had our modern sensibilities? As to enjoying your heritage..I don't think Teddy was saying you had to forget ALL of your roots. However I think the point we draw from his speech TODAY is quite clear. Which is more important to you? Where do your allegiances lie?

 

[jetboatdeath]

personally i like multi-culturalism, it makes things more interesting, & this country is big enough to accomodate all different types.

I agree it is nice, but if your culture is something that is looked down on by the country you live in and not the norm... don't cry faul and pull the race card. Agian this is America.
And if I don't agree with your culture don't force me to.
We as Americans have a our own culture it's called freedom..
but thats slowly being changed....

 

[jarrod]

I agree it is nice, but if your culture is something that is looked down on by the country you live in and not the norm... don't cry faul and pull the race card. Agian this is America.
And if I don't agree with your culture don't force me to.
We as Americans have a our own culture it's called freedom..
but thats slowly being changed....

well it depends on what it is being looked down on for. often immigrants have been looked down on for keeping their native language, even if they speak english as well. now if someone is pissed off because they're a polygymist & can't practice that here, too bad, that's the law of the land for right or wrong.

to my mind, freedom isn't really a culture so much as an ideal, & one that we have not been very comfortable with in recent decades. more specifically we are not always very comfortable with how some people choose to exercise their freedom. for instance in your post (& i'm not picking on you here, this is something pretty common to our society's way of thinking) you have simultaneously criticized some for failing to fall in line with the norm, while claiming freedom as the basis of american culture. the message is sort of "come to america where you can be free...but use your freedom just like everyone else...". we seem to place equal value on the opposing attributes of group conformity & individualism.

jf

 

[jetboatdeath]

come to america where you can be free...but use your freedom just like everyone else...".

You have some good points and don't ever be afraid of offending me my skin is a tad thicker than others on here.
Yea maybe freedom as culture was a bad match, but i don't think it realy changes the basic idea of my post. After all we are not as free as we think we are.

 

[jarrod]

You have some good points and don't ever be afraid of offending me my skin is a tad thicker than others on here.
Yea maybe freedom as culture was a bad match, but i don't think it realy changes the basic idea of my post. After all we are not as free as we think we are.

i'm not afraid of offending, i just wanted you to know that i wasn't singling you out. i understand what you're saying, i was raised in a rural area & freedom was instilled as the highest american ideal from as early on as i can remember. & that still has a huge impact on me today. however these very same people often encouraged denying freedoms to homosexuals, minorities, different religions, or just anyone that was weird. freedom is something we should all strive for, but everyone should get to come along for the ride. that includes gays, redneck gun nuts, women & their reproductive rights...everyone.

jf

 

[Carol]

I don’t think it is a “Black/Brown/Yellow/Red thing it is culture.
When immigrants came to this country they were expected to assimilate to American culture, sure they could stay in the China towns but not much was offered to them because they were not truly part of the American culture.
But now we Americans are expected to assimilate to accommodate the immigrants, Spanish only driving manuals, English as a second language in schools.
They came to America for a reason to better themselves and God bless them for it, but they are the ones that need to except that there will be hardships like learning a new language and some of their culture will not be accepted in the United States. I spent a few years overseas mainly in Germany. I did not see an English driving manual, English menu (not even McDonalds) no special provisions were made for me because of my language or culture. I learned the culture of the Germans and had the time of my life.
We are all Americans and more now than ever we need to use that to our advantage. But I will put on my tin foil hat for this one.
They don’t want us to be a huge group of likeminded like cultured Americans, that would put the power back where it belongs in the hands of the American people. 99% of the blacks know nothing of the African culture other than what they have read in books or heard from TV. They are Americans just as you and me. If I were black if someone called me African I would stand proudly and say nope I am American..
And don't fly the flag of your nation in America that is an insult not to mention illeagle. The only foreign flags I saw in Germany was at the bases.

It is also a matter of volume. There are a couple of stores near the area where I lived in MA where people mostly speak Khmer, yet the Registry of Motor Vehicles does not offer materials in Khmer. I don't think that is because the Cambodian people are particularly gifted at learning English. 1 out of every 10 households in the U.S. is Latino, the number of Cambodian households is nowhere near that level. By the same token, while I don't have my hands on census numbers from Germany or Mexico, I'm confident that people of American heritage do not make up for one out of every 10 households in either country. There are however, a significant number of English-speaking people in Germany, particularly in areas where English-speaking people are likely to be, including the the areas around US military bases: my company has a significant number of installations throughout Kaiserslautern and Ramstein, we had no trouble at all finding prospective local talent that spoke English. The homepage for the city of Kaiserslautern is published in German and English, with the English page focusing more on what there is to learn and do in the city.

It is unlikely that one will find an English-language driver's license manual in Mexico. However, one will find one in Belize, a country with a large number of English-speaking people...much like one will find one in the indiginous language Quechua in many South American countries, particularly in the heart of the Andes.

According to the U.S. Census bureau, approximately 75 percent of Latino families speak Spanish at home. So if 1 in 10 families are Latino, then 75 out of 1000 are families that speak Spanish at home. Teaching English as a second language so non-English speaking students don't degrate the pace of a standard English class can make sense. Having government materials available in Spanish so the non-bilingual folks at government offices can spend less time trying to explain something to a person without command of English may also mean that person that person who draws a taxpayer-funded salary can work more efficiently. I'm sure most folks would rather their RMV didn't run any slower than it already does. :lol:

 

[elder999]

And don't fly the flag of your nation in America that is an insult not to mention illeagle. The only foreign flags I saw in Germany was at the bases.

Just to clarify: there is no law against flying a foreign flag. The flag code prohibits flying one higher than the U.S. flag if both are displayed on U.S. soil, but there is no prohibition whatsoever against flying a foreign flag on its own-though a few municipalities have passed ordinances to that effect, the legality of those ordinances themselves, as a jurisdictional matter, has been disputed.

 

[jkembry]

Well the question is WHY are we?
Is it because we may accidentally step on a nerve?
That the "N-word" might slip out during the conversation?
That our real prejudices may show through during the course of the conversations?

Why...Because political correctness had impeded honest and open discussion....because when people become involved in such discussions broad statements or opinion are taken personally when they don't have to be.

Oh...yeah we got that way because the legal system allows for people to file suit on just about anything. People are afraid to discuss there opinion because they don't want to end up in court.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Again, at the risk of being called jingoistic

And you think these other ethnicities just love each other? Any idea what happened in the Cultural Revolution (1965-75)? What happend to the Han Chinese? Or what happend to Christians under Mao?

Do you have any idea what happened during the Cultural Revolution?

it was 1966 - 1972 and it was ALL religions, ALL Chinese and rather nasty time in China.

People close to Mao where "cleansed" or imprisoned (thing Deng Xiaoping) and there was a major push to destroy Chinese history and if it were not for some of Mao's cronies it would have been. Zhou Enlai saved the forbidden city from destruction but I am sure he did other nasty things during that time. People who had land or who were considered educated or who were examples of old ways (think artisans and martial artists) were targets of Mao and his Red guard. There was starvation and death and a lot of atrocities committed against both Han and non-han peoples.

But China today is a far cry form China During the Cultural Revolution. There is not a whole lot of ethnic conflict in China these days between the people all westerners label as Chinese and to be honest they are there are just subdivisions of that; Han and non-Han.

Is there racism sure but I have seen more between countryside and city folk than Han and non-Han group. The only outright hostility I have heard of on an ethnic level tends to be when China and any other country on the planet have an issue. There are times it is better to not be a westerner and be in China

But as already mentioned, I am not sure how this is relevant to the conversation

 

[elder999]

But as already mentioned, I am not sure how this is relevant to the conversation

Not at all-unless one is trying to make the case that "the conversation" should not or doesn't need to take place.

 

[Carol]

I don't think Mr. Holder was talking about racial dynamics around the world. He was definitely indicating that there is more healing and more growing to be done within the U.S. and wasn't isolating one race in particular when he made that statement.

I can see where its an issue close to his heart. His sister-in-law was Vivian Malone Jones:

...one of the first two black students to attend the University of Alabama, she earned her degree and went on to a fine civil rights career in her own right.

Unfortunately she was lost to a stroke before seeing President Obama elected or seeing her brother-in-law appointed to AG. :asian:

 

[Gordon Nore]

I don't think Mr. Holder was talking about racial dynamics around the world. He was definitely indicating that there is more healing and more growing to be done within the U.S. and wasn't isolating one race in particular when he made that statement.

Let's see...

The headline...

Holder: US a nation of cowards on racial matters

What Holder said...

Though this nation has proudly thought of itself as an ethnic melting pot, in things racial we have always been and I believe continue to be, in too many ways, essentially a nation of cowards.

The use of the word, "we," has been overlooked, I think. Holder essentially said, 'we Americans are cowards,' when it comes to discussing race, not simply 'Blacks.' It was a broadly inclusive statement, which people will disagree with or not, but he didn't say, 'Whitey's a coward.' In referencing 'the melting pot,' a metaphor for the immigrant experience in America, there is a broader racial appeal than simply Black/White.

It remains a controversial statement, no doubt, but not a narrow indictment of one group or race.

Balanced against Holder's strong personal connection to a key event in the history of civil rights, it's quite astonishing.

 

[Deaf Smith]

But China today is a far cry form China During the Cultural Revolution. There is not a whole lot of ethnic conflict in China these days between the people all westerners label as Chinese and to be honest they are there are just subdivisions of that; Han and non-Han.

Is there racism sure but I have seen more between countryside and city folk than Han and non-Han group. The only outright hostility I have heard of on an ethnic level tends to be when China and any other country on the planet have an issue. There are times it is better to not be a westerner and be in China

But as already mentioned, I am not sure how this is relevant to the conversation

I guess the Communist party just loves Tibet monks, right? Or do you know where the Dalai Lama is or, more importantly, were he was when the Communist came?

Thing is, all around the world there is racism now. Far far more raceism than in the U.S. (how many tribes in Africa behead villagers of other tribes now and what is happening to the Chiapas in Mexico now.)

And that is what seems to get lost in the breast beating over raceism in the U.S. We are not perfect, the most of the world is actually worse off.

Deaf

 

[Carol]

We are not perfect, the most of the world is actually worse off.

That's a statement that could apply to many snapshots of U.S. history.

As a nation, we would not be what we are had we been content with shrugging our shoulders and saying the rest of the world is worse.

 

[Gordon Nore]

As a nation, we would not be what we are had we been content with shrugging our shoulders and saying the rest of the world is worse.

You know what, Carol, I'm actually a fan of the USA in many ways. To me, it's your upstarts that make your country great. The fierce individuals who stand up and say, "I love this country, but it's got to do better." The part of recent US history that moves me most and continues to stir my imagination is the sixties era of the civil rights movement which was when I was growing up. I look at that time in history, and, yeah I see the hate and misery and the equivocation, but I also see these huge triumphs against complacency.

 

[elder999]

I guess the Communist party just loves Tibet monks, right? Or do you know where the Dalai Lama is or, more importantly, were he was when the Communist came?

He was in Tibet. He ran, quite famously. The China's grab of Tibet was just that, a land grab. THey didn't care about the Tibetans, except that they claim them as "Chinese," under some ancient imperial boundaries. Being who they are, they will continue to try to exert control over the region through the monks to the extent that the government will probably try to determine who Tenzin Gyatso's successor is, as they have with other lineage holders in Tibetan Buddhism......in any case, their actions aren't motivated by racism.( And what about what Hillary said this past week about China? The fire Hillary clock officially started ticking....:lol

Thing is, all around the world there is racism now. Far far more raceism than in the U.S. (how many tribes in Africa behead villagers of other tribes

I'm tempted to say "none." However, beheadings do occur in Africa, principally from Muslim believers against non-Muslims and Muslim criminals, and have for centuries in Africa now. THere was a wave of ]jihad against the various Coptic shrches in Mauritania, Mali, Nigeria, Chad, Kenya, etc......there is inter-tribal warfare, and has been for centuries, and when one examines it thoroughly, the conflict between Tutsi and Hutu in Rwanda is absurd in the level of hatred that is generated between two artificial classes-artificial classes that were generated by European colonists, btw-the Tutsis and Hutus in Rwanda were essentially the same people before the Europeans came. The conflicts in Chad and Sudan are another special case, in that their primary cause is the most basic and probably the first cause of warfare: a lack of resources, brought on by extended drought, though they are often divided along idelogical and ethnic lines, as human nature is wont , apparently, to do.In any case, if beheadings have occurred elsewhere in Africa, they have been part of general warfare, like the civil war in Congo, and not inter-tribal conflict.

now and what is happening to the Chiapas in Mexico now.)

I actually own property in Mexico.I've go there regularly, and have gone several times not to vacation, but to build houses, churches and community centers. I've been to Chiapas. The problems there have a wide-range of causes that cannot simply be ascibed to "racism," though that might be an easy, knee-jerk sort of answer. In fact, the principal causes are economic.

And that is what seems to get lost in the breast beating over raceism in the U.S. We are not perfect, the most of the world is actually worse off.

Deaf

You know, I've said, time and time again, that my parents (and I, though I guess I was only 3 and really don't remember) marched on Washington, D.C. during the civil rights era. That my parents-without me-marched on Selma, and put their lives on the line more than once. Mind you, we lived in New York, where there was "racism" when I was a kid, and racism when I was an adult, and where there is racism now. Of course, living in New York, my parents and I might have been "better off" in that regard than people living in Selma or other parts of the deep south-I don't know. THere's something to be said for the more honest and overt racism of "No Coloreds" to the blurry and "secret" ones that I grew up with in New York.My parent, though, didn't have to go to Selma to be able to vote-they went so that others could, because they believed, as I do, that if one of us is kept in chains, then none of us are free. Previous generations, though, had to eliminate the same sorts of problems in New York in order for my parents to be ready and able to offer others help.

Of course, "a lot of people around the world are worse off than in the U.S." because there are a lot more people around the world than there are in the U.S. Their problems are often worse, and we do offer what help we can, but it's not as though we don't have problems of our own.

In any case, "a lot of places are worse off" is not only disingenuous (again, Holder is the U.S. Attorney General, not Secretary of State) but seems to be some sort of lame excuse-an offer to dismiss the very real problems that exist here, or a plea to not have the discussion., and, as I said elsewhere, I never knew a problem of this nature to go away by not talking about it.

 

[Deaf Smith]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...d-Guadeloupe-rioters-turn-white-families.html

Britons flee French island of Guadeloupe as rioters turn on white families

If you read it you will see the islanders don't like white people. But... since most are leaving they will soon find out what a zero cash economy will be like.

Nah, there ain't no racism in the world except the U.S.

ops...

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2005/07/14/tribes-050714.html

http://www.globalissues.org/article/429/rwanda

http://www.sudanvisiondaily.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=5601

http://www.boloji.com/wfs5/wfs677.htm

http://tibet.dharmakara.net/ictracism.html (Racism: China's Secret Scourge)

http://www.axt.org.uk/antisem/archive/archive1/yugoslavia/yugoslavia.htm (remeber the Serbs and Croats?)

In fact gang, just google 'racism xxxx' and fill in xxxx with whatever country you desire and presto, you will find some intresting articles.

Only in the U.S. we ain't beheading people, necklacing people, stavring people, mass executions, and the like.

Oh, and about Tibet... what did the Chineese communist do to the Budist monks when they took over? Any thoughts?

Deaf

 

[Xue Sheng]

I guess the Communist party just loves Tibet monks, right? Or do you know where the Dalai Lama is or, more importantly, were he was when the Communist came?

Thing is, all around the world there is racism now. Far far more raceism than in the U.S. (how many tribes in Africa behead villagers of other tribes now and what is happening to the Chiapas in Mexico now.)

And that is what seems to get lost in the breast beating over raceism in the U.S. We are not perfect, the most of the world is actually worse off.

Deaf

My last post on this topic and in this thread since this has VERY little to do with the topic “United States A Nation of Cowards??” Since Both China and Tibet are not the United States

Since you did now throw in the Dalia Lama who had little to do with my previous post I can only guess you know little of the events in China during 1966-1972 and since the Dalia Lama left Tibet prior to that I am again guessing you know little of the Cultural Revolution.

If you missed it the first time in my previous post; 1966 to 1972 was bad for “ALL” religions and ALL people in China at that time. As for today it is very different than it was between 1966 and 1972.

I will waste no further time here

My best to you