Flash Mobs and race

[RandomPhantom700]

i disagree because crime is an irrational act most of the time, so the motivations will not make sense to a rational person. And in the end it is irrelevant. If it is a crime, punish the person doing it, no matter why they did it. Sure, SOME circumstances are mitigating, but that isnt really that common is it?

Let's go with your example then: rape. Who cares why people rape, right? It's a criminal act, so we should just shoot those who commit it. Well, for starters, knowing what general factors lead to rape occurring can help policy-makers and law enforcement in predicting and possibly combatting its frequency. Also, a person committing rape because it gives them a feeling of power is a very different indicator from a person committing rape because the victim looked so hot and was just irresistable. Only in the second situation would a victim's choice of clothing possibly have had anything to do with leading to the rape. (And before anyone tries it, no I'm not saying we should blame the victim. It's just an example of what difference motivation can have.)

Or how about drug use? Why people use drugs is a pretty damn good indicator of how the DEA and State agencies can properly combat its use, predict where potential buyers will crop up, and what type of criminal response scenarios are likely to involve suspects who are high.

I think the fundamental difference, though, is that your attempt to dismiss the motivations behind criminal acts, or to say that their motives don't matter, is an attempt to put a false barrier between "them" and "us". If we ignore the motivation behind crime and only react to crimes, "they" are just going to continue appearing among "us".

 

[Twin Fist]

it is more a matter of "i am not interested in giving them an excuse"

 

[RandomPhantom700]

I disagree, there is one single answer: Some people are asses who do not behave the way they ought.
I don't think race is an excuse for anything. If you are being a jerk, you're a jerk, what you look like really has no bearing on it.
The truest statement you will read today: You cannot tell a bad person on sight.

Saying that race has something to do with it is not to say that it excuses the behavior. Also, "being a jerk", or more accurately "acting like a jerk", most often has causes of its own. People are not born criminals; at best, their genetics give them propensities. The idea that criminals are just criminals by nature is a poor attempt to comfort ourselves into believing that it could never happen to us or ours.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

it is more a matter of "i am not interested in giving them an excuse"

Neither am I.

 

[Big Don]

Saying that race has something to do with it is not to say that it excuses the behavior. Also, "being a jerk", or more accurately "acting like a jerk", most often has causes of its own. People are not born criminals; at best, their genetics give them propensities. The idea that criminals are just criminals by nature is a poor attempt to comfort ourselves into believing that it could never happen to us or ours.

In essence human nature is selfish. Civilization and culture, along with self-restraint make people polite enough to live with. As to being vs acting like, I disagree, some people refuse to comply with social mores to the point that they are only acting when they are not being jerks.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

In essence human nature is selfish. Civilization and culture, along with self-restraint make people polite enough to live with.

Generally speaking, I agree with this part. I will only point out that self-restraint, like any other aspect of one's personality, is a result of both nature and nurture. Which again, and I'm bolding for TF's sake, DOES NOT MAKE AN EXCUSE FOR IT!

As to being vs acting like, I disagree, some people refuse to comply with social mores to the point that they are only acting when they are not being jerks.

Ok, so? I've no doubt that there are many who only behave on this forum because they don't want to be hit by the banhammer. My only contention is that there is no point at which we can say "ok, that person isn't human anymore, he's just a monster and we can ignore his motivations". Sorry, but even the most heinous of criminals is still human and had some psychology behind their choices. Understanding that psychology can yield a lot of information, and (again, bolded for Twin Fist), DOES NOT EXCUSE THEIR BEHAVIOR OR NEGATE THEIR CHOICE!

 

[Twin Fist]

arent there certain classes of criminals that simply do not have compassion wired into them? they are not really "human" are they? they have no motivations, they do what they want to because they want to. i dont know

 

[MA-Caver]

Neither am I.

Same here (giving them an excuse)

 

[RandomPhantom700]

arent there certain classes of criminals that simply do not have compassion wired into them? they are not really "human" are they? they have no motivations, they do what they want to because they want to. i dont know

Those are sociopaths. My layman's understanding is that they literally lack the ability to feel any type of sympathy, empathy, compassion, or other connection with other people. In the sociopath's mind, he or she is literally the only person in the world; all other humans are just really smart monkies.

They are also, from what little I know on the subject, pretty rare; someone acting heartlessly doesn't in itself make that person a sociopath. A teenager going through, well, teenaging doesn't make them a sociopath either. And even sociopaths are humans, which has kinda been my point.

 

[MA-Caver]

true, but certain cultures and groups do not by and large teach respect for the law, the property of others, etc

like poor people for example. Followers of "thug life" for another example

Lumping in "poor people" as followers of "thug life" is a misnomer and an mistaken assumption. Just because someone is poor, destitute, jobless but NOT out robbing people, stealing from stores, bilking the system, and so on does not a thug make. Remember that there are those from middle and upper classes who lead a double life being a thug. It's just for some reason we don't read about 'em in the paper because they're not generally stereotyped. I'm unemployed now for 7 months straight... yet I haven't robbed any stores or people or stolen cars or selling dope or whatever... am I a thug? Because I'm sure as hell am POOR!

I disagree, there is one single answer: Some people are asses who do not behave the way they ought.

And pray tell just WHO determines how anyone should behave? You? Me? Bob H? Billy Graham? Dali Lama? Who pray tell makes that determination of how one other should live? And then answer by what RIGHT do they have to tell another person how to behave as they ought to? Does anyone tell YOU how to behave? I mean outside your job/employment.
I've said that society has written most of our laws based on what the majority desires to live comfortably, safely and respectfully. Someone acts outside those boundaries is going to pay the consequences of it. That is with ANY society on this planet. It's what THEY deem to be right. We'll gravitate towards the groups that best match our own philosophy of how we should live and co-exist with one another.

You cannot tell a bad person on sight.

Very true that. Ted Bundy got away with a lot. Same with some other infamous white collar criminals.

Let's go with your example then: rape. Who cares why people rape, right? It's a criminal act, so we should just shoot those who commit it. Well, for starters, knowing what general factors lead to rape occurring can help policy-makers and law enforcement in predicting and possibly combating its frequency. Also, a person committing rape because it gives them a feeling of power is a very different indicator from a person committing rape because the victim looked so hot and was just irresistible. Only in the second situation would a victim's choice of clothing possibly have had anything to do with leading to the rape. (And before anyone tries it, no I'm not saying we should blame the victim. It's just an example of what difference motivation can have.)

I know what you're saying just adding on that it's still the perp's choice to select that hottie with the short-short pants and loose tank-top walking down the street and turning into an alleyway for a short-cut home because the perp had already decided to get some sex by any means necessary. The hottie had no intention of drawing attention to herself... except maybe some cute guys she knows on her block who might playfully flirt with her... or simply she was just too lazy to do her laundry and what she was wearing was the only thing she had clean to wear to the store to buy more laundry soap.
Irony of it that Iran and other muslim countries require their women to cover their bodies up completely but the women still end up getting raped, by their husbands or brothers in law when they're home. So how a woman dresses isn't going to be an invitation to have at her.

Or how about drug use? Why people use drugs is a pretty damn good indicator of how the DEA and State agencies can properly combat its use, predict where potential buyers will crop up, and what type of criminal response scenarios are likely to involve suspects who are high.

Yet don't they target specific economic classes more often than others? A lady I know lives in the projects with her teenage daughter. There are more cops in cars I've seen there than any other part of the city where I live. Hmmm, the potential is frightening.

I think the fundamental difference, though, is that your attempt to dismiss the motivations behind criminal acts, or to say that their motives don't matter, is an attempt to put a false barrier between "them" and "us". If we ignore the motivation behind crime and only react to crimes, "they" are just going to continue appearing among "us".

Finding out WHY people do the things that they do is a job for psychologists and sociologists not for LEO's. Though they may study the topics to have a better understanding of the people they're arresting, they've got a lot on the plate to worry about the whys... or that they simply DO see WHY but don't have the time, training to deal with it.

Generally speaking, I agree with this part. I will only point out that self-restraint, like any other aspect of one's personality, is a result of both nature and nurture. Which again, and I'm bolding for TF's sake, DOES NOT MAKE AN EXCUSE FOR IT!

Agreed there are no excuses... a person makes a choice based on a series of thoughts, actions and feelings. Why they chose that particular route stems from those three. Understanding the reason does help. They still gotta pay the consequences based on our laws but hopefully help can be given to them so that (again) hopefully they won't repeat or threepeat.

Ok, so? I've no doubt that there are many who only behave on this forum because they don't want to be hit by the banhammer. My only contention is that there is no point at which we can say "ok, that person isn't human anymore, he's just a monster and we can ignore his motivations". Sorry, but even the most heinous of criminals is still human and had some psychology behind their choices. Understanding that psychology can yield a lot of information, and (again, bolded for Twin Fist), DOES NOT EXCUSE THEIR BEHAVIOR OR NEGATE THEIR CHOICE!

Again agreed. Yet we can prevent them from making the same choice again and again. So locking them away or putting them out of OUR misery for the moment is the viable solution... if therapy, counseling and harsh punishment doesn't change their thinking/feelings which lead them to those unfortunate choices.

Unfortunate... for us.

 

[MA-Caver]

Related news article. Read on.

A national study on child well-being to be published Wednesday found that child poverty increased in 38 states from 2000 to 2009. As a result, 14.7 million children, 20 percent, were poor in 2009. That represents a 2.5 million increase from 2000, when 17 percent of the nation's youth lived in low-income homes.
http://news.yahoo.com/national-child-welfare-survey-examines-recession-052324006.html

Related snippets

"People who grew up in a financially secure situation find it easier to succeed in life, they are more likely to graduate from high school, more likely to graduate from college and these are things that will lead to greater success in life," said Stephen Brown, director of the Center for Business and Economic Research at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas. "What we are looking at is a cohort of kids who as they become adults may be less able to contribute to the growth of the economy. It could go on for multiple generations."
The annual survey monitored by policy makers across the nation concludes that children from low-income families are more likely to be raised in unstable environments and change schools than their wealthier peers. As a result, they are less likely to be gainfully employed as adults.
There are other social costs. Economically disadvantaged children can result in reduced economic output, higher health expenditures and increased criminal justice costs for society, the survey concludes. The research is based on data from many sources, including the Mortgage Bankers Association, National Delinquency Survey and U.S. Census Bureau.
"Even if you don't care about kids and all you care about is your own well-being, then you ought to be concerned," said Patrick McCarthy, president of the Baltimore, Md.-based charity. "... We've got to think about what kind of state, what kind of country we can expect to have if we are not investing in the success of our children." In the two decades since researchers began compiling the annual report, infant mortalities, child and teen deaths and high school dropout rates have declined. But the number of unhealthy babies have increased, and there were far more children living in low-income families.
Programs such as food stamps, unemployment insurance and foreclosure meditation have acted like a dam against the flood of poverty, McCarthy said, but that assistance has been threatened by federal and state government budget cuts.

Sooo, it's just a matter of time. Unless something can be done radically altering the fate of these kids growing up and learning from the so-called thugs of their neighborhood... the problem will get worse exponentially.

 

[Twin Fist]

Lumping in "poor people" as followers of "thug life" is a misnomer and an mistaken assumption.

i didnt lump them together. You can be poor and obey the law, or rich and a thug

 

[SensibleManiac]

arent there certain classes of criminals that simply do not have compassion wired into them? they are not really "human" are they? they have no motivations, they do what they want to because they want to. i dont know

Wired into them?

If by this you mean it's not in their dna then no, the way people behave is mostly learned and dependent on their environment, this doesn't excuse this type of behaviour, only gives a reason for it.

Compassion just like a lack of it are mostly learned.

 

[elder999]

We live in a society that generally romanticizes criminal behavior, and embraces the criminal ideology of getting away with it. We cheer on thieves and scoundrels in movies like The Hot Rock, The Italian Job, Thunderbolt and Lightfoot, The Thomas Crown Affair, Oceans Eleven, The Score, and Entrapment, just off the top of my head. We enjoy seeing people commit criminal acts of violence in others, and have rooted for murder plots since Alec Guiness played seven roles in Kind Hearts and Coronets , way back in 1950 (a great British black-comedy, and worth seeing again!). Over herein the U.S., we've romanticized vicious real world criminals like John "the dapper Don" Gotti, John Dillinger, Bonnie and Clyde, and Bugsy Siegel-to name just a few, all the way back to Jesse James and Billy the Kid. Here in the U.S., anyway, it's part of our heritage.

I'm not even going to get into the whole "mob mentality" thing, except to point out that the looters apprehended for the recent rioting in London included a school worker, a postman, a millionaire's daughter, a lifeguard and a charity worker.

It's not cultural or racial-it's human.

 

[Twin Fist]

i agree

but

the mobs in question DO share culture (seemingly)and race.

 

[elder999]

i agree

but

the mobs in question DO share culture (seemingly)and race.

So, seemingly, did this one.Guess "flash mobs" are a white invention....:lol: (Since as the conversation is about "flash mobs and race, " anyway...)

 

[billc]

Hmmm...it may escape Janeane Garafalo, but I would wager a princely sum that the people in that photo voted for democrats at the time that picture was taken, that the people who did this horrible thing were democrats and the police who obviously stood by were democrats and if those responsible went to trial, the jury that let them walk was composed of democrats. So, Janeane Garafalo, who continues the myth that republicans belong to a party of racists, needs to look back into American History to see where the racists have always found a political home.

To get a good look at mob violence, take a look at Ann Coulter's new book, "Demonic," which discusses mob violence in American history.

 

[elder999]

Hmmm...it may escape Janeane Garafalo, but I would wager a princely sum that the people in that photo voted for democrats at the time that picture was taken, that the people who did this horrible thing were democrats and the police who obviously stood by were democrats and if those responsible went to trial, the jury that let them walk was composed of democrats. So, Janeane Garafalo, who continues the myth that republicans belong to a party of racists, needs to look back into American History to see where the racists have always found a political home.

To get a good look at mob violence, take a look at Ann Coulter's new book, "Demonic," which discusses mob violence in American history.

WHile the police were complicit in this event, the only one who was tried for it was another young black man who escaped lynching, and was convicted of being an accessory to murder and served four years in prison.This lynchng is noted as the last to take place in a northern state, and it took place on Aug. 12, 1930, in Marion, Indiana. A Republican stronghold since the days of Lincoln......:lfao:

[yt]POX4YSnxjro[/yt]

 

[Twin Fist]

you gotta go back 70 years to try and stay relevant?

So, seemingly, did this one.Guess "flash mobs" are a white invention....:lol: (Since as the conversation is about "flash mobs and race, " anyway...)

 

[elder999]

you gotta go back 70 years to try and stay relevant?

Modern humans have been on the planet for about 200,000 years. Since my entire point was that this was human behavior, all examples from human history would be relevant.