Unarmed Florida Teen Shot

[ballen0351]

Well, nobody writes my script. And they're mortal fools to expect to.

Again, these a**holes with their superiority complexes.

And its attitudes like this that caused this situation in the first place. Everyone is so worried about being disrespected, or how dare "you" talk to me or How are "You" not answer my questions. IF everyone would tone it down a bit with the macho man contest and actually talk to each other this would have never happened.
Zimmerman: excuse me sir neighborhood watch why are you here?
Martin: Im staying with my dad at 123 main st.
Zimmerman: Ok just checking we have had some problems inthe area.
Martin: Ok

Alot less blood shed then the alternative.

I get so sick of the you cant talk to me, you better answer me, mines bigger then yours games. When did we stop being people and talking to each other like humans and move into the ME ME ME ME ME you cant disrespect me BLAH BLAH BLAH get over yourselves you might live longer.

 

[Wo Fat]

So what? I was questioned all the time when I was undercover by people wanting to know why I was in there neighborhood or what I was doing there. Why? Because I was a white guy in a black neighborhood. Only 2 reasons I would be there Im a Cop or looking for drugs. Well I didnt look like a cop so I was often approchaed and told to leave the area by concerned citizens who wanted to clean up there neighborhood. People that wanted the crime to stop. so again I ask SO WHAT who cares if someone "dares" question you. You either answer or you dont big deal. You dont then fine keep on walking.





You dont need any authority to have pride in your neighborhood and check people out that dont look familiar. Nobody says you need to question anyone but some people know they cant sit back and wait for the police. Police are generally reactive not proactive we cant be at all places at all times so its your neighborhood your responsibility.

We're belaboring the point. High crime, low crime, no crime; "I" don't owe "you" an explanation of my presence. In any neighborhood.

 

[ballen0351]

We're belaboring the point. High crime, low crime, no crime; "I" don't owe "you" an explanation of my presence. In any neighborhood.

Thanks for proving my point above

Im not saying you owe anyone anything but why are you so important you dont feel like you need to talk to someone thats concerned about the safety of their neighborhood?

what harm comes from answering a simple question?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

This is what I'm seeing a lot of here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent

Affirming the consequent, sometimes called converse error, is a formal fallacy, committed by reasoning in the form:

If P, then Q.
Q.
Therefore, P.

An argument of this form is invalid, i.e., the conclusion can be false even when statements 1 and 2 are true. Since P was never asserted as the only sufficient condition for Q, other factors could account for Q (while P was false).

The name affirming the consequent derives from the premise Q, which affirms the "then" clause of the conditional premise.
[edit] Examples

One way to demonstrate the invalidity of this argument form is with a counterexample with true premises but an obviously false conclusion. For example:

If Bill Gates owns Fort Knox, then he is rich.
Bill Gates is rich.
Therefore, Bill Gates owns Fort Knox.

Owning Fort Knox is not the only way to be rich. There are any number of other ways to be rich.

Zimmerman was armed.
Zimmerman was a member of Neighborhood Watch.
Therefore, Neighborhood Watch members are armed.

Zimmerman is not black and Martin is black.
Racism is hatred based on differing skin color.
Therefore, Zimmerman is racist.

Zimmerman was armed.
Cops are armed.
Therefore, Zimmerman thought he was a cop.

Neighborhood Watch members patrol their neighborhoods.
Police patrol neighborhoods.
Therefore, Neighborhood Watch members think they are police officers.

These logical fallacies MIGHT be true, or they MIGHT be false. Nothing stated proves either; and nothing stated above gives anyone a logical reason to believe one over the other.

It would be JUST as logical for me to say that Cops are armed and Neighborhood Watch members are armed, therefore cops think they are Neighborhood Watch members. It would be JUST as logical to say Zimmerman was not black and Martin is black, therefore Martin was a racist. It would be just as logical to say that Neighborhood Watch members are generally not armed, Zimmerman was a member of Neighborhood Watch, therefore Zimmerman was not armed (clearly false, but not false based on the statement, false because of the reality revealed by his shooting Martin).

If you've come to a decision regarding Zimmerman, and you base it on to unrelated facts which you have decided represent a logical conclusion, you're not being logical. You may be correct about your assumption, but it is just that, an assumption based on your own opinion; it is not based on logic.

 

[jks9199]

We're belaboring the point. High crime, low crime, no crime; "I" don't owe "you" an explanation of my presence. In any neighborhood.

No, you don't. But anybody can also say "Hi; I don't know you, do you live around here?" or even "why are you in my neighborhood?" They may not be able to compel an answer or detain the person -- but they may indeed ask. If you don't like the answer, or they're uncooperative and you're now even more suspicious, then call the cops. Interestingly enough, generally, a cop can't do anything more, either, unless and until they develop a reasonable, articulable suspicion.

By the way -- in my experience, both on and off the clock, I've found a couple typical reactions. People in the neighborhood are generally happy to be "checked out" since it means that there's a good chance they won't be a victim. People with legitimate business in the area explain themselves. (OK; that one burned me once. I was doing surveillance, and parked next to a house for sale, giving me an easy explanation of "I'm waiting for the realtor..." Except the person who confronted me was either the realtor or the homeowner... and they knew that nobody should have been coming by.) People up to no good get defensive real fast... and they either leave abruptly, or get confrontational. One caveat: this is with a polite, friendly inquiry, not a confrontational "Hey, what the hell are you doing walking down my street!?" Also -- teenagers react more unpredictably, especially in a group. Alone -- you generally get a response as described previously. In a group? You may get a group monkey dance response as if they were wrong, even if they're doing nothing wrong.

 

[granfire]

and you can't jump somebody for asking you why you are in their neck of the woods - or hood...

 

[Wo Fat]

...why are you so important you dont feel like you need to talk to someone thats concerned about the safety of their neighborhood?

If you even have to ask "why am I so important", you couldn't possibly comprehend the answer.

 

[ballen0351]

If you even have to ask "why am I so important", you couldn't possibly comprehend the answer.

Yes because your so important how dare anyone even gaze upon you. How is a question so offensive. Sir neighborhood watch ive never seen you around here before you lost? You need any assistance? If thats somehow to much for someobe to ask you then you have some issues. Not to many people love themselves as much as me but i could care less if someone asks me a few questions when im walking around. I have nothing to prove by puffing out my chest and telling them they have no authority over me. Maybe thats just me but little stuff like that does not bother me

 

[MJS]

I don't disagree with what you're saying, except that I am not tying it to Neighborhood Watch; I just don't see the link. GZ was a CCW permit holder. That doesn't mean that most NW groups go about armed, or that anyone else on his NW was typically armed. As to whether or not we was a 'wanna be' cop, again, I just don't have enough information to see that; it could be true, or not. But again, even if GZ is a 'wanna be' cop, that doesn't make NW full of wanna-be cops. Same if he turns out to be a racist. Does it make NW members racist? I don't see the connection you see to be wanting to draw. GZ was a NW member. He was also X, Y, and Z, and he might have been A, B, and C. But those attributes (fill in the blank) just don't necessarily MEAN anything with regard to NW. If I meet a bunch of NW members who are tall, shall I imply that NW members are all tall? Or that they're all men? Or all of mixed white/hispanic ancestry? See, just because GZ was a CCW holder doesn't have any meaning with regard to his NW membership that I can see. Unless you have some kind of data on the bloodthirsty NW wanna-be cops getting arrested left, right, and center. I see your other post, but that's ONE other situation. How many NW groups are there? More than two, I'm guessing.

If I'm mistaken about you trying to tie whatever GZ is or is not (racist, wanna-be cop, etc) to NW in general, forgive me, but that's what I'm getting from this and I just don't see it that way.

Hey Bill,

Sorry for the delayed reply. Now that I'm home, rather than at work, I can try to clarify myself.

1) Regarding the CCW permit. Forgive me if this was already discussed, but did we establish whether or not GZ had the gun concealed right up until he was supposedly attacked by Martin or was he walking down the street with it out? I ask this, because IMO, if you're going to take it out, then regardless of the SYG or any other law, I feel that you damn well better be justified in using it. I mean, we're not in the wild west anymore, and furthermore the courts apparently felt that GZ was in the wrong, otherwise the probably wouldn't have charged him with murder.

2) Many times on here, when people start talking about bad cops, I've said that yes, there are bad apples in the bunch, but by no means, if every cop bad. The same with the NW groups, security guards, etc. However, I think you and I both know that those 'wanna be's' do exist. IMHO, moreso in the 2nd case I linked, those guys seemed to go seriously overboard.

3) How many NW groups are there? No idea. I've seen signs posted on certain streets, that this is a NW area. However, I've never seen people patrolling. Hey, by all means, if someone wants to do something for their neighborhood, knock your socks off. Hell, I've taken countless calls from folks, who've looked out their window, and saw something suspicious, a burg in progress, and many times, those people are responsible for the badguys getting caught. But, IMO, you gotta know where to draw the line. I mean, you yourself, have said that in certain SD situations, its better to comply first, rather than go in with guns blazing. Same thing can apply here. Instead of taking it upon yourself, as a citizen, a non LEO, to chase after, confront, etc, a suspicious person, observe from a safe distance. If I was going to follow someone, I'd rather do so from my vehicle, rather than on foot. At least if things started going south, I'd be able to hopefully get the hell out of dodge faster.

Hopefully this clarified my stance. Feel free to give your comments.

 

[Wo Fat]

Yes because your so important how dare anyone even gaze upon you. How is a question so offensive. Sir neighborhood watch ive never seen you around here before you lost? You need any assistance? If thats somehow to much for someobe to ask you then you have some issues. Not to many people love themselves as much as me but i could care less if someone asks me a few questions when im walking around. I have nothing to prove by puffing out my chest and telling them they have no authority over me. Maybe thats just me but little stuff like that does not bother me

I don't expect you to agree with my point of view, here. There are plenty of grown men, law abiding citizens who have paid their life's dues and who know that they are well within their business to walk down the street of their neighborhood or someone else's, without having to account for themselves--regardless of the BS pretext of "are you lost, sir". Because at that point, both men know two things: (1) he ain't "lost"; and (2) he's been singled out as possibly not belonging where he has a right to be.

Now, just because you will accept that, doesn't mean that I will.

 

[ballen0351]

I don't expect you to agree with my point of view, here.

Its not that I dont agree I just dont understand it. I dont understand why it bothers you for someone to ask you a few simple questions.

There are plenty of grown men, law abiding citizens who have paid their life's dues and who know that they are well within their business to walk down the street of their neighborhood or someone else's, without having to account for themselves

-
And the same hard working law abiding citizens hat have paid their life's due who are well with in their business to want to know why a stranger is walking thru their neighborhood.

-regardless of the BS pretext of "are you lost, sir". Because at that point, both men know two things: (1) he ain't "lost"; and (2) he's been singled out as possibly not belonging where he has a right to be.

Again I dont understand what the big deal is you know your in a neighborhood your not from so there is a chance someone may want to know why your there esp. if there has been crime in that area.

Now, just because you will accept that, doesn't mean that I will.

I accept that sometimes its better to be polite and avoid a fight or the police being called by respecting someone elses neighborhood im in and if Im asked a simple question ill answer and go about my business. If Im in my own neighborhood Ill use it as a chance to meet a neighbor I have not met yet.

I guess I dont get the hostility towards someone thats concerend about their neighborhood. I wish more people actually gave a crap about where they lived.

 

[Wo Fat]

Its not that I dont agree I just dont understand ...

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

It's hard for one man to understand another man's hostility toward giving up liberties and freedoms. And in the case of a so-called neighborhood watch, we aren't talking about the context of someone being lost or needing directions. We are talking about a crime context. Again; that's where the contact begins--in a crime/safety context. One man (usually Joe Watchdog) expects the "stranger" to capitulate to fears of criminality. The man who's minding his own business, expects to be secure in his freedom from criminal suspicion.

Cops are accustomed to people obeying their orders. They're accustomed to hoodlums, criminals and soon-to-be criminals acting as such. Night watchmen and wannabe cops, in too many cases, seem to expect that same level of obedience. Usually because they assume they are dealing with the criminal usual suspect. My responsibility as a man, is not to capitulate to what some see as everyday-normal. My responsibility is not to obey you just because your life experience suggests it.

And if my indignance is so offensive to you that the situation rises to a violent one, then it also becomes a matter of how much I value my real freedom vs. your perceived authority.

 

[ballen0351]

you have no freedom from being questioned. I can approach anyone i want for any reason and ask them a question. You dont need to answer but i can still ask. I guess i look at things differently i dont see every person that asks me a question as some power hungry authoritarian out to restrict my freedoms. I also dont loose any freedom by answering a simple question. Why you here? Im cutting thru to my house over on main st. And id keep on walking he wants to follow me good i dont care. He wants to call the police fine call them i dont care. Like i said before when i was under cover i was questioned by residents of areas i was parked in i didnt get defensive or pissed about what authority they have to question me. I thought it was good to see people taking pride in there neighborhood

 

[granfire]

you have no freedom from being questioned. I can approach anyone i want for any reason and ask them a question. You dont need to answer but i can still ask. I guess i look at things differently i dont see every person that asks me a question as some power hungry authoritarian out to restrict my freedoms. I also dont loose any freedom by answering a simple question. Why you here? Im cutting thru to my house over on main st. And id keep on walking he wants to follow me good i dont care. He wants to call the police fine call them i dont care. Like i said before when i was under cover i was questioned by residents of areas i was parked in i didnt get defensive or pissed about what authority they have to question me. I thought it was good to see people taking pride in there neighborhood

on a side note...

what did you tell them when they wanted to know why you were in the hood?
I mean, telling them you want to score dope would not work, or that you are a copper.... :lol:

But Wo Fat, you have the freedom from getting your crib tossed by the government and it various arms.
There is no freedom from criminal suspicion. When you look out of place, you look out of place and why somebody thinks you do, well, tough luck, you do to them.

 

[punisher73]

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

It's hard for one man to understand another man's hostility toward giving up liberties and freedoms. And in the case of a so-called neighborhood watch, we aren't talking about the context of someone being lost or needing directions. We are talking about a crime context. Again; that's where the contact begins--in a crime/safety context. One man (usually Joe Watchdog) expects the "stranger" to capitulate to fears of criminality. The man who's minding his own business, expects to be secure in his freedom from criminal suspicion.

Cops are accustomed to people obeying their orders. They're accustomed to hoodlums, criminals and soon-to-be criminals acting as such. Night watchmen and wannabe cops, in too many cases, seem to expect that same level of obedience. Usually because they assume they are dealing with the criminal usual suspect. My responsibility as a man, is not to capitulate to what some see as everyday-normal. My responsibility is not to obey you just because your life experience suggests it.

And if my indignance is so offensive to you that the situation rises to a violent one, then it also becomes a matter of how much I value my real freedom vs. your perceived authority.

Way to misquote a founding father. No one is "giving up" an essential liberty. I guarantee you, in Mr. Franklin's time if someone was walking around on their property who they didn't know, they would be asking questions. I have been asked to look after our neighbor's house on many occasions and have asked the same of him. There was a time when someone came over to my house and he started asking questions because he knew we were gone and no one should be there. My friend that was over got mad and told me about it, and I informed them that my neighbor was doing exactly what I asked him to do. Neighborhood watches are the same thing, if someone is walking around that hasn't been seen before at a time when most people aren't out and they are looking around as if lost and/or up to no good, I would EXPECT the NW to ask a few questions.

I'm so sick of selfish people quoting "RIGHTS" as if what they wanted is the only thing that mattered. Guess what?? There is no "right" to privacy in a public place. If you don't want to be bugged, then don't go to places where you stand out and draw attention to yourself. Very simple. If there have been several robberies/break ins in my neighborhood (which was the case) and I see someone walking around in the rain stopping and looking around that I have never seen before, I'm gonna either 1) call the police to have them investigate or 2) talk to them myself.

 

[ballen0351]

on a side note...

what did you tell them when they wanted to know why you were in the hood?
I mean, telling them you want to score dope would not work, or that you are a copper.... :lol:

No i would normally say i was waiting for a friend they would call BS and tell me to get out of the area and i would.
I call the dealer i was waiting for and tell them i moved to a new place.
No harm no foul everyone was happy and nobody got shot. Little civility goes along way

 

[Wo Fat]

you have no freedom from being questioned. I can approach anyone i want for any reason and ask them a question. You dont need to answer but i can still ask. I guess i look at things differently i dont see every person that asks me a question as some power hungry authoritarian out to restrict my freedoms. I also dont loose any freedom by answering a simple question. Why you here? Im cutting thru to my house over on main st. And id keep on walking he wants to follow me good i dont care. He wants to call the police fine call them i dont care. Like i said before when i was under cover i was questioned by residents of areas i was parked in i didnt get defensive or pissed about what authority they have to question me. I thought it was good to see people taking pride in there neighborhood

While it's true that anyone can be suspected of something--one can't do anything about that--every person has the freedom in how they choose to respond. Where I draw the line is in the expectation to (a) acquiesce to the notion that I am out of place; and (b) that it's reasonable for *me* to discharge my good neighbor duty to oblige the person who's suspicious of me in a crime/potential criminal context. Not that I'm lost, or need directions, or am some annoying encyclopedia salesman or some other BS pretext. But in the context of "well, we've had some burglaries in the neighborhood, so ya know ... just askin'". As I said earlier, if you are perfectly fine with accepting that kind of dynamic, then that's fine for you. Just don't expect it of me.

 

[ballen0351]

While it's true that anyone can be suspected of something--one can't do anything about that

you do know not everyone is out to get you right? Just because someone has the nerve to actually speak to you does not mean they think your a criminal.

--every person has the freedom in how they choose to respond.

True and if people actually talked to others as people not worried about who has what authority then we would all live longer happier lives. But some are so wrapped up in finding the boogie man in everything they cant see a question as a question they see it as opression. Some people are always looking for a "victim"

Where I draw the line is in the expectation to (a) acquiesce to the notion that I am out of place;

Which you are. If your new or not from the area you are "out of Place" you act like there is something evil or wrong about that. If I came to your neighborhood Id be out of place because Im not from there it does not mean I cant be there.

(b) that it's reasonable for *me* to discharge my good neighbor duty to oblige the person who's suspicious of me in a crime/potential criminal context.

I thnk it is reasonable to respond to a simple question by a concerned party.

Not that I'm lost, or need directions

Sometimes people really are lost just because I talk to someone does not mean I automatically am accusing them of a crime. Ive asked many people if they are lost and SHOCKER I was really trying to help because they did look lost.

or am some annoying encyclopedia salesman or some other BS pretext. But in the context of "well, we've had some burglaries in the neighborhood, so ya know ... just askin'".

I see nothing wrong with that. There neighborhood they have a vested interest in making sure its safe. I would expect you to look after your neighborhood as much as I look after mine.

As I said earlier, if you are perfectly fine with accepting that kind of dynamic, then that's fine for you. Just don't expect it of me.

See theres your probelm you see it as some big "dynamic" I see it as being friendly.

 

[WC_lun]

I just moved into a new nieghborhood. Much nicer than the one I came from (no bullet holes in my house here). I was walking arounf my new house making a list of things to do and to be honest I was looking pretty scraggly. A nieghbor walked up and asked if he could help me with something. I actually was very pleased. It meant my new nieghbors care about the nieghborhood. It means my wife will be safer when alone than my old nieghborhood. It was a good thing. It is not something that would of normally happened in my old, high crime nieghborhood.

Now if the nieghbor had threatened me, attacked me, or shot me, because I didn't look like I belonged there, then that is something else entirely. I just don't see how you fault a man for caring if his nieghborhood is crime free. If the worst youhave to face is a few questions from a well meaning nieghbor, then so what?

 

[Wo Fat]

you do know not everyone is out to get you right? Just because someone has the nerve to actually speak to you does not mean they think your a criminal.



True and if people actually talked to others as people not worried about who has what authority then we would all live longer happier lives. But some are so wrapped up in finding the boogie man in everything they cant see a question as a question they see it as opression. Some people are always looking for a "victim"

...

Which you are. If your new or not from the area you are "out of Place" you act like there is something evil or wrong about that. If I came to your neighborhood Id be out of place because Im not from there it does not mean I cant be there.

....

I thnk it is reasonable to respond to a simple question by a concerned party.

...

Sometimes people really are lost just because I talk to someone does not mean I automatically am accusing them of a crime. Ive asked many people if they are lost and SHOCKER I was really trying to help because they did look lost.

...

I see nothing wrong with that. There neighborhood they have a vested interest in making sure its safe. I would expect you to look after your neighborhood as much as I look after mine.

...

See theres your probelm you see it as some big "dynamic" I see it as being friendly.

One thing I notice, and that I believe we can both agree on, is that all the above would be genuinely coming from a good place; politeness, goodness, kindness.

Ironically, isn't it a good chance that Trayvon Martin would still be alive today if George Zimmerman had approached Trayvon with all the same goodness, kindness, and politeness?