Unarmed Florida Teen Shot

[billc]

Eric Zorn, a liberal columnist, takes a look at the possible timeline of events in the shooting...

http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2012/04/411.html

But what's often overlooked in all the heated conversations about this tragedy is the actual timeline based on police documents, a timeline that culminated at 7:16:56 p.m., more than five minutes later, with the sound of a single gunshot in the background of a 911 emergency call.

There's much we still don't know about what happened in those five minutes, but we do know it was five minutes — some 90 seconds longer than in many earlier news accounts that misstated the starting time of Zimmerman's call.

And we do know that maps of the area show that Martin was only about 180 yards from home when Zimmerman told police he saw him running in that direction.

Here is a big sticking point...

Online, the audio of this call has become to the killing of Trayvon Martin what the Zapruder film was to the assassination of President John F. Kennedy — a fragmentary record subjected to endless close analysis by those looking for clues or support for their theories.

Does Zimmerman break off the chase?
By 7:12:15 p.m., the wind noises have stopped and his breathing has returned to normal as he discusses with the police dispatcher where responding officers should meet him. At 7:13:12 p.m. he interjects, "I don't know where this kid is."

Where is Martin? At just a normal walking pace of three miles per hour, he would be home by the time Zimmerman hangs up with police at 7:13:41 p.m.

He isn't. In fact, the fatal altercation between Zimmerman and Martin takes place only about 80 yards from Zimmerman's vehicle — 100 yards from the home where Martin was staying. And the first 911 emergency calls from neighbors reporting their fight don't come in until 7:16:11 p.m., 21/2 minutes after Zimmerman hung up.

So what? Well, it's very difficult to reconcile all this with the popular, outraged contention, as voiced by Rep. Frederica Wilson D-Fla., that Martin "was hunted down like a dog," stalked and overtaken by an officious, gun-toting racist.

The yawning gaps in the timeline strongly suggest that this is not a simple story of predator and prey, or of a noble neighborhood hero demonized and facing second-degree murder charges simply for doing the right thing.

It's a reminder that there's a lot we still don't know about the five minutes between "he's running" and the horrible sound of gunfire. … It indicates that the victim as well as the accused made some terrible choices that night.

And it tells us to keep our minds open and our tempers in check, at least until some of those gaps get filled at Zimmerman's trial

.

 

[Wo Fat]

Eric Zorn, a liberal columnist, takes a look at the possible timeline of events in the shooting...

http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2012/04/411.html



Here is a big sticking point...

Back to the photo for a moment. Looking at this possible timeline, it suggests that the fatal shot came at 7:16. The Sanford Police Report shows the first officer arriving on scene at 7:17.

The photographer claims to have taken the photo of Zimmerman three minutes after the shooting--or 7:19. The photographer also suggests that he conversed with Zimmerman.

Is this photographer a Sanford Police employee or agent? If so, why is ABC representing that it was taken by someone other than Sanford PD? If this photographer is a private citizen, how is it that he or she was allowed access not only to the crime scene (Sanford PD was already on scene) but allowed to speak with Zimmerman?

 

[MJS]

But but wait i was told due to crappy racist police work there were no crime scene photos and zimnerman had no injuries. There are 30 plus pages of people saying that hmmmmm. So maybe there are some other "Facts" out there.

I can't believe that nobody would take photos, and if in fact that is the case, then someone really dropped the ball, and no doubt, the lawyers will have a huge field day with this.

 

[Wo Fat]

I can't believe that nobody would take photos, and if in fact that is the case, then someone really dropped the ball, and no doubt, the lawyers will have a huge field day with this.

Which begs the question: will the prosecution throw the Sanford PD under the bus, if in fact, they did not take any photos of the crime scene (which should have included Zimmerman)?

 

[ballen0351]

Which begs the question: will the prosecution throw the Sanford PD under the bus, if in fact, they did not take any photos of the crime scene (which should have included Zimmerman)?

You keep implying they didnt. How do you knw what they did or didnt do. Taking pics is police 101 when you show up to a homicide if they didnt the Prosecution should throw them under the bus

 

[MJS]

Which begs the question: will the prosecution throw the Sanford PD under the bus, if in fact, they did not take any photos of the crime scene (which should have included Zimmerman)?

I'm sure they will. In fact, I'd wager a good guess that alot of the cases we see get tossed, alot of the bad guys that walk, end up doing so, because of poor police work.

 

[MJS]

And in other news:
http://news.yahoo.com/md-neighborhood-watch-trial-set-against-fla-fury-140920015.html

BALTIMORE (AP) — Two brothers accused of beating a black teenager while patrolling an Orthodox Jewish neighborhood are set to go on trial Monday in a case with similarities to the Trayvon Martin shooting.
The brothers, who are white and Jewish, have claimed self-defense, saying the teen was holding a nail-studded board. Local civil rights activists hope the Martin case will draw more attention to what they believe was racial profiling by neighborhood watch vigilantes.
Eliyahu and Avi Werdesheim are accused of beating a 15-year-old boy who was walking through a Baltimore neighborhood in November 2010. The brothers pulled up next to the teen in a vehicle, then got out and "surrounded him," according to charging documents. The passenger threw the teen to the ground and the driver hit him in the head with a hand-held radio and patted him down.

The teen remembered the driver yelling, "You wanna (mess) with us, you don't belong around here, get outta here!" according to court documents, which do not identify which brother was driving.
While the teen struggled, a third man got out of a van and kneed the teen, pinning him to the ground. The teen told police that he stopped struggling and the third man continued to search him, while the teen insisted he didn't have anything on him.
Eliyahu Werdesheim told the Baltimore Jewish Times that he was acting in self-defense because the teen was holding the piece of wood. The teen picked up the board during the encounter, but put it back down, said J. Wyndal Gordon, an attorney for the teen's family. He said the family did not want to speak publically.

After the trio left, the teen called police and was taken to a hospital with a cut on the back of his head and a broken wrist, according to court documents. Using a photo book compiled by investigators, the teen later identified Eliyahu Werdesheim, now 24, as one of the men who assaulted him. He was arrested after about 10 days; his now 21-year-old brother was charged two months later.
The brothers are charged with second-degree assault, false imprisonment and carrying a deadly weapon (the hand-held radio). The pair face up to 13 years in prison if convicted on all three counts. A third man, identified in a lawsuit brought by the teen's family as Ronald Rosenbluth, does not face charges.

Police spokesman Anthony Guglielmi said investigators don't believe Rosenbluth was involved in the beating. Rosenbluth said he doesn't believe there was a third person and he was only called to the scene after the incident.
Law enforcement officials emphasize that neighborhood watchers' responsibility is to report crime, and leave interventions to police. Most follow the rules, and confrontations are rare.
"We owe a lot of our success to communities that have stepped up and partnered with police. They help us out," Guglielmi said. "But when they step too far, we have to hold people accountable."
In the Florida case, authorities charged neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman this month with second-degree murder in Martin's death Feb. 26. Zimmerman claims self-defense, but Martin's family claims he targeted Martin mainly because he was black. Zimmerman's father is white and his mother Hispanic.
It's unusual to have a trial in which the allegations mirror a case so prominent in the news, said Steven Levin, a former federal prosecutor.

"Since the Trayvon Martin case, people cannot help but think about that case and draw comparisons, whether they are fair or not," he said.
In the Werdesheim case, the six trial postponements could significantly hinder the defense's case, Levin said. However, the charges against Zimmerman since the last postponement may mean jurors won't feel that they need to somehow set things right through the case they are deciding.
Eliyahu Werdesheim was suspended from the neighborhood group while Avi was never a member, according to Nathan Willner, general counsel for Shomrim of Baltimore, a group that patrols neighborhoods with a large concentration of Jewish residents and institutions in the Baltimore area. Shomrim, which is Hebrew for guard, has about 30 volunteer, unarmed responders. It was founded in 2005 to provide security and gather information for police, Willner said.
While the case has not garnered the attention the Martin shooting has, Cortly C.D. Witherspoon, president of the local chapter of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, has organized protests outside the courthouse during court hearings and has been frustrated by the postponements.

"We feel that justice should have been served long ago. I would contend that the urgency for justice (in this case) is affected by the Trayvon Martin case because of the similarities," he said.
Members of the area's Jewish community also rallied outside the courthouse when the brothers appeared in court to enter not guilty pleas in February. Jakob Lurman, the owner of a barbershop, was among them.
"I have a business in the community. Shomrim do good work," Lurman said. "I don't know what happened in that case, but I wanted to show support."
Jewish neighborhood watch groups in New York City have faced accusations of unnecessary force against blacks, creating tensions between the Jewish and black communities. That hasn't yet happened in Baltimore, according to the Rev. Alvin Gwynn Sr., president of the Interdenominational Ministerial Alliance. The organization of predominantly black clergy met with leaders of the area's Jewish community to keep relationships between the two communities strong.
"We were already working with them when this came up," Gwynn said. "It hasn't done much damage yet."
Baltimore is a city that's 64 percent black, and the jury will likely have eight or nine black members. So race will be a factor, said University of Baltimore School of Law professor and practicing attorney Byron Warnken.
"What the defense has to do is completely downplay that," he said, and show the force was necessary to prevent a crime.
Susan Green, an attorney for Avi Werdesheim, said last month that she hoped the media coverage would not create an atmosphere that would make it difficult for her client, but declined to comment further. The attorney for Eliyahu Werdesheim did not return calls for comment.

Now, reading this, I'd say its very similar to the TM/GZ case, as we have the typical watch group yahoo wanna be cops. We have a black youth. We have people in this case that clearly stepped overboard, if in fact they did what the article claims.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Now, reading this, I'd say its very similar to the TM/GZ case, as we have the typical watch group yahoo wanna be cops. We have a black youth. We have people in this case that clearly stepped overboard, if in fact they did what the article claims.

I agree that the 'watch group' that allegedly did this needs to be arrested, as they have been, and prosecuted, as it appears they will be. I disagree that 'typical watch groups' are 'yahoos' or 'wanna be cops'. I've lived in many places in the USA over the years. I've lived in many neighborhoods that had an organized "Neighborhood Watch." I've never seen one that had more than a list of phone numbers, a designated Watch Captain or Block Commander, and semi-regular meetings to discuss issues in the neighborhood. I think your description of Neighborhood Watch groups is WAY overblown and flat-out wrong. I've never been a member of a Neighborhood Watch group; but seriously? They're not only *not* wanna-be cops, they're not even that much interested in 'patrolling' unless there is some active threat in the neighborhood like recent burglaries.

 

[MJS]

I agree that the 'watch group' that allegedly did this needs to be arrested, as they have been, and prosecuted, as it appears they will be. I disagree that 'typical watch groups' are 'yahoos' or 'wanna be cops'. I've lived in many places in the USA over the years. I've lived in many neighborhoods that had an organized "Neighborhood Watch." I've never seen one that had more than a list of phone numbers, a designated Watch Captain or Block Commander, and semi-regular meetings to discuss issues in the neighborhood. I think your description of Neighborhood Watch groups is WAY overblown and flat-out wrong. I've never been a member of a Neighborhood Watch group; but seriously? They're not only *not* wanna-be cops, they're not even that much interested in 'patrolling' unless there is some active threat in the neighborhood like recent burglaries.

Well you hit the nail on the head when you said 'organized.' My point was simply that in the GZ case, and this one that I just linked, we had people who, IMO, took their 'job' a bit too serious.

 

[ballen0351]

Well you hit the nail on the head when you said 'organized.' My point was simply that in the GZ case, and this one that I just linked, we had people who, IMO, took their 'job' a bit too serious.

And if you lived in Bodymore Murderland as the locals like to call it you would know why they need neighborhood watch groups

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Well you hit the nail on the head when you said 'organized.' My point was simply that in the GZ case, and this one that I just linked, we had people who, IMO, took their 'job' a bit too serious.

In the GZ case, I don't know. In the case you linked to, could be, but again, I don't know. But you seemed to me to be implying that this went along with the territory with NW groups, and I don't agree. I have seen (and worked with) a lot of wanna-be cops in my life, and most of them wore private security guard uniforms. They get a uniform, a badge, and a gun; many of them think it's a step along the way towards being a real LEO (and it can be for a very select few) and many of them think they *are* cops at that point. NW? You don't even get a piece of paper saying you're in it. Your name is just on a piece of paper somewhere. You don't carry weapons, no badges, no uniforms, and most don't even have portable radios, just their own cell phones to call each other or 911. I don't think they are deluded into thinking anyone has to respect their aww-thor-it-tay.

I will say this at the risk of making someone angry; I have been in several ultra-orthodox Jewish communities in the US where anyone who was not ultra-orthodox was extremely unwelcome and made to understand that they needed to leave immediately. Not a black/white thing, a Jewish thing, and ultra-orthodox at that. I've take a wrong turn in a couple cities when I used to travel for a living an found myself in neighborhoods where it was pretty clear I was going to be harmed if I did not vacate immediately, and it *was* because I was white. I'm sure the opposite exists also; but since I am white, I've never experienced that.

I tried to check into a hotel near Mexican Water, Arizona, late one night (it's on Apache Nation land) and was told flat-out by the desk clerk that "You in the wrong place, bro." I left.

Racism exists. All kinds. People who live in enclaves of like-minded individuals might try to keep others out, or harm those that come in who are not like themselves. I think that's just racism (or bigotry) and doesn't have to be put on Neighborhood Watch groups. I don't think NW is endemically racist, or made up of wanna-be cops. I've worked with enough wanna-be cops to be able to recognize them.

 

[granfire]

I agree that the 'watch group' that allegedly did this needs to be arrested, as they have been, and prosecuted, as it appears they will be. I disagree that 'typical watch groups' are 'yahoos' or 'wanna be cops'. I've lived in many places in the USA over the years. I've lived in many neighborhoods that had an organized "Neighborhood Watch." I've never seen one that had more than a list of phone numbers, a designated Watch Captain or Block Commander, and semi-regular meetings to discuss issues in the neighborhood. I think your description of Neighborhood Watch groups is WAY overblown and flat-out wrong. I've never been a member of a Neighborhood Watch group; but seriously? They're not only *not* wanna-be cops, they're not even that much interested in 'patrolling' unless there is some active threat in the neighborhood like recent burglaries.

well, a string of crimes usually is what gives birth to NW groups.
Once the thread subsides, so do the patrols...unless of course the dog still needs walking in the evening...

 

[MJS]

In the GZ case, I don't know. In the case you linked to, could be, but again, I don't know. But you seemed to me to be implying that this went along with the territory with NW groups, and I don't agree. I have seen (and worked with) a lot of wanna-be cops in my life, and most of them wore private security guard uniforms. They get a uniform, a badge, and a gun; many of them think it's a step along the way towards being a real LEO (and it can be for a very select few) and many of them think they *are* cops at that point. NW? You don't even get a piece of paper saying you're in it. Your name is just on a piece of paper somewhere. You don't carry weapons, no badges, no uniforms, and most don't even have portable radios, just their own cell phones to call each other or 911. I don't think they are deluded into thinking anyone has to respect their aww-thor-it-tay.

For the same reason that some that choose to become LEOs, let it go to their head. That badge and gun, somehow, in 'their' eyes, gives them this power, this feeling, this assumption, that they're better than everyone. I've seen it as you have, I'm sure. Oddly enough, you say that NW groups dont carry weapons, radios, etc., yet in the GZ case, he had a gun. In the other case I linked, they had radios.

I've seen vol. firefighters do the same thing. Install lights that're not allowed under their vol. status, as well as other violations. Its a power trip. Its the wanna be mentality, because despite how hard they try, they just can't get the 'real deal' so they settle for the next best thing.

I will say this at the risk of making someone angry; I have been in several ultra-orthodox Jewish communities in the US where anyone who was not ultra-orthodox was extremely unwelcome and made to understand that they needed to leave immediately. Not a black/white thing, a Jewish thing, and ultra-orthodox at that. I've take a wrong turn in a couple cities when I used to travel for a living an found myself in neighborhoods where it was pretty clear I was going to be harmed if I did not vacate immediately, and it *was* because I was white. I'm sure the opposite exists also; but since I am white, I've never experienced that.

I tried to check into a hotel near Mexican Water, Arizona, late one night (it's on Apache Nation land) and was told flat-out by the desk clerk that "You in the wrong place, bro." I left.

Racism exists. All kinds. People who live in enclaves of like-minded individuals might try to keep others out, or harm those that come in who are not like themselves. I think that's just racism (or bigotry) and doesn't have to be put on Neighborhood Watch groups. I don't think NW is endemically racist, or made up of wanna-be cops. I've worked with enough wanna-be cops to be able to recognize them.

I'd bet dollars to donuts that were the situation reversed, and it was a bunch of white people, members of some racist group, and a bunch of ultra orthadox Jewish people came into the area and were treated as you described, all hell would break loose. You're right...racism does exist. Despite some posts here, I can't help but think that in these 2 cases, it played a large part that we either think or that some want to think.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

For the same reason that some that choose to become LEOs, let it go to their head. That badge and gun, somehow, in 'their' eyes, gives them this power, this feeling, this assumption, that they're better than everyone. I've seen it as you have, I'm sure. Oddly enough, you say that NW groups dont carry weapons, radios, etc., yet in the GZ case, he had a gun. In the other case I linked, they had radios.

I've seen vol. firefighters do the same thing. Install lights that're not allowed under their vol. status, as well as other violations. Its a power trip. Its the wanna be mentality, because despite how hard they try, they just can't get the 'real deal' so they settle for the next best thing.

I'd bet dollars to donuts that were the situation reversed, and it was a bunch of white people, members of some racist group, and a bunch of ultra orthadox Jewish people came into the area and were treated as you described, all hell would break loose. You're right...racism does exist. Despite some posts here, I can't help but think that in these 2 cases, it played a large part that we either think or that some want to think.

I don't disagree with what you're saying, except that I am not tying it to Neighborhood Watch; I just don't see the link. GZ was a CCW permit holder. That doesn't mean that most NW groups go about armed, or that anyone else on his NW was typically armed. As to whether or not we was a 'wanna be' cop, again, I just don't have enough information to see that; it could be true, or not. But again, even if GZ is a 'wanna be' cop, that doesn't make NW full of wanna-be cops. Same if he turns out to be a racist. Does it make NW members racist? I don't see the connection you see to be wanting to draw. GZ was a NW member. He was also X, Y, and Z, and he might have been A, B, and C. But those attributes (fill in the blank) just don't necessarily MEAN anything with regard to NW. If I meet a bunch of NW members who are tall, shall I imply that NW members are all tall? Or that they're all men? Or all of mixed white/hispanic ancestry? See, just because GZ was a CCW holder doesn't have any meaning with regard to his NW membership that I can see. Unless you have some kind of data on the bloodthirsty NW wanna-be cops getting arrested left, right, and center. I see your other post, but that's ONE other situation. How many NW groups are there? More than two, I'm guessing.

If I'm mistaken about you trying to tie whatever GZ is or is not (racist, wanna-be cop, etc) to NW in general, forgive me, but that's what I'm getting from this and I just don't see it that way.

 

[Wo Fat]

Implicit in these kinds of neighborhood watch/wannabe cop scenarios--and particularly when violence manifests--is that the person who is "suspected" of wrongdoing, is expected to somehow submit to a perceived authority; authority that usually only exists in the mind of the wannabe ranger. When the "suspect" does not assume the expected subordinate role (and instead offers up a "who the eff are you?") the situation quickly escalates. No surprise that violence ensues.

People will continue to suspect, profile, stereotype, etc., without justification. But it's not their right to do so, and there need to be serious criminal justice consequences when they do.

 

[billc]

Some interesting thoughts on the girlfreind's claims about her last conversation with Martin...

http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/04/dee-dee_trayvon_and_dj.html

As for the final words Dee-Dee reported hearing:

1. They don't sound anything like the immediate prelude to a fight. Two questions are asked: Why are you following me? and What are you doing here? Without knowing anything about the individuals who asked them, it's difficult to believe these words would provoke a fight without any further exchanges.
2. Zimmerman had called the police 5 minutes earlier. He expected an officer to arrive at any moment. The last thing he wanted to do is get into a fight with the guy he's called them about. If he got out of his truck a second time -- and this seems to be the key piece of evidence in the prosecutor's case -- common sense says that he was attempting to locate the suspicious stranger so he could point the officer in the right direction.
3. Among the six individuals making 911 calls, at least one reported hearing an argument before the fight broke out. The woman's account was presented as a rebuttal to the eyewitness who had seen Martin on top, beating Zimmerman. Unfortunately, she had seen nothing. But she did hear loud voices, that of a "man," deeper and more aggressive, and a quieter "boy." There was not merely an exchange of questions.
4. What does pushing sound like? Even the media does not insist that the fight began with Zimmerman pushing Martin, though this now seems to be widely believed.
5. If Zimmerman did in fact ask Martin what he was doing here, there was a perfectly good answer: "I happen to be staying with my dad and his girlfriend, a**hole." And he could have given the address. This was not how Martin responded.
6. You have every right to approach a suspicious stranger walking in your community and ask him what he's doing there. This is not chasing or stalking. The stranger in this case was 6' 2" or 6' 3" and weighed about 160 pounds. It was a little after 7 p.m. in a gated community. If he was simply returning from an errand (though we know now he was not), he had no reason to be frightened. Perhaps the little twelve-year-old in the hoodie might have been scared, but it says something about the veracity of Dee-Dee's story that it needs this dishonest illustration to make it stick.
So what did happen in the final moments before the fight? According to Zimmerman, he was headed back to his truck for the second time when he was surprised by Martin, who was waiting for him between two buildings. The teenager said, "Do you have a ********** problem?," and when Zimmerman replied "no," said, "You do now," and decked him. Zimmerman told police that he reached for his cell as he said "no."

Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/04/dee-dee_trayvon_and_dj.html#ixzz1ssfe9FqL
​

 

[ballen0351]

Implicit in these kinds of neighborhood watch/wannabe cop scenarios--and particularly when violence manifests--is that the person who is "suspected" of wrongdoing, is expected to somehow submit to a perceived authority; authority that usually only exists in the mind of the wannabe ranger. When the "suspect" does not assume the expected subordinate role (and instead offers up a "who the eff are you?")

and the one "suspected" of wrongdoing when questioned still does not have the right to attack over being asked a question or even being followed. If your that frightened why not call 911 or RUN and yell for help.

People will continue to suspect, profile, stereotype, etc., without justification. But it's not their right to do so, and there need to be serious criminal justice consequences when they do.

OR people could see strangers in their neighborhood and decide to follow them regardless of race simply because they know who lives in there neighborhood and who does not.

 

[Wo Fat]

and the one "suspected" of wrongdoing when questioned still does not have the right to attack over being asked a question or even being followed. If your that frightened why not call 911 or RUN and yell for help.

Again, the one who "thinks" he has the authority to "question" me, really doesn't.

OR people could see strangers in their neighborhood and decide to follow them regardless of race simply because they know who lives in there neighborhood and who does not.

I see "strangers" in my very nice neighborhood quite often. I have no authority to expect them to stop and be questioned by me. And if I think I have that kind of right and authority, then I do so at my (and possibly someone else's) risk of safety.

 

[Wo Fat]

5. If Zimmerman did in fact ask Martin what he was doing here, there was a perfectly good answer: "I happen to be staying with my dad and his girlfriend, a**hole." And he could have given the address. This was not how Martin responded.

Well, nobody writes my script. And they're mortal fools to expect to.

Again, these a**holes with their superiority complexes.

 

[ballen0351]

Again, the one who "thinks" he has the authority to "question" me, really doesn't.

So what? I was questioned all the time when I was undercover by people wanting to know why I was in there neighborhood or what I was doing there. Why? Because I was a white guy in a black neighborhood. Only 2 reasons I would be there Im a Cop or looking for drugs. Well I didnt look like a cop so I was often approchaed and told to leave the area by concerned citizens who wanted to clean up there neighborhood. People that wanted the crime to stop. so again I ask SO WHAT who cares if someone "dares" question you. You either answer or you dont big deal. You dont then fine keep on walking.

I see "strangers" in my very nice neighborhood quite often. I have no authority to expect them to stop and be questioned by me. And if I think I have that kind of right and authority, then I do so at my (and possibly someone else's) risk of safety.

You dont need any authority to have pride in your neighborhood and check people out that dont look familiar. Nobody says you need to question anyone but some people know they cant sit back and wait for the police. Police are generally reactive not proactive we cant be at all places at all times so its your neighborhood your responsibility.