Unarmed Florida Teen Shot

[ballen0351]

I think beyond Martin this shows a lack of respect in general by kids towards adults. 50 years ago kids were taught to respect adults. Now they are taught that nobody has the right to speak to them. They dont need to lisren to anyone. They are abusive to teachers, police, even their own parents. I get cussed at and yell at more by teenagers then i ever do by adults. Its sad because i dont see it getting better.

 

[d1jinx]

I think beyond Martin this shows a lack of respect in general by kids towards adults. 50 years ago kids were taught to respect adults. Now they are taught that nobody has the right to speak to them. They dont need to lisren to anyone. They are abusive to teachers, police, even their own parents. I get cussed at and yell at more by teenagers then i ever do by adults. Its sad because i dont see it getting better.

this is the kind-ler, gent-ler, politically correct America. You dont "EARN" anything, you "EXPECT" everything. Everything is Owed to everyone and no one is supposed to work for it. Not to mention, everyone thinks its thier business to be in yours so.... how can it get any better?

 

[d1jinx]

And once again, here's the dichotomy. Trayvon acted like the typical brainless, smart-alec teenager; it's no wonder this happened. At the same time, Trayvon should have had the composure and presence of mind to recognize a potentially dangerous situation and call 911.

2 people went looking for trouble.... and found it.

 

[Wo Fat]

I think beyond Martin this shows a lack of respect in general by kids towards adults. 50 years ago kids were taught to respect adults. Now they are taught that nobody has the right to speak to them. They dont need to lisren to anyone. They are abusive to teachers, police, even their own parents. I get cussed at and yell at more by teenagers then i ever do by adults. Its sad because i dont see it getting better.

I'm thinking that there's a general lack of respect and civility within all of society. But yes, definitely among teens. And it's (disrespectful behavior) coming from all statuses and classes of teens--urban, suburban, "good families", broken families, you name it. I agree, it's sad.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I agree with Dershowitz on this:

http://www.startribune.com/opinion/commentaries/148756895.html

In a recent interview with me, Dershowitz acknowledged the low evidentiary bar necessary at this juncture but still opined that Corey has not met it.

"Most affidavits of probable cause are very thin," Dershowitz said. "This is so thin that it won't make it past the judge on a second-degree murder charge. There is simply nothing in there that would justify second-degree murder. The elements of the crime aren't established ...

"There is nothing in there, of course, either about the stains on the back of Zimmerman's shirt, the blood on the back of his head, the bloody nose, all of that. It's not only thin, it's irresponsible. I think that what you have here is an elected public official who made a campaign speech ... for re-election when she gave her presentation, and overcharged, way overcharged. ...

"If the evidence is no stronger than what appears in the probable-cause affidavit, this case will result in an acquittal."

It's all opinion, of course, but I think Dershowitz is correct. Again, it has nothing to do with what actually happened; only with what can be proven to have happened, which is not the same thing.

 

[Wo Fat]

@ Alan Dershowitz re Zimmerman case "doomed"

http://www.startribune.com/opinion/commentaries/148756895.html

What Prof. Dershowitz does not mention is whether the judge in this particular case will act on precedent. In other words, have 2nd degree murder charges ripened to convictions, based on similar quality/quantity of evidence in cases where there was no media scrutiny, public interest or expectations?

I'd bet that this judge has presided over many a conviction on similar or less. We the public just weren't that interested.

 

[ballen0351]

I'm thinking that there's a general lack of respect and civility within all of society. But yes, definitely among teens. And it's (disrespectful behavior) coming from all statuses and classes of teens--urban, suburban, "good families", broken families, you name it. I agree, it's sad.

I agree I dont understand how or why there was such a big change or really if it is a change at all maybe people have always been this was we just think of the old days as being more "leave it to beaver." I would guess things have gotten worse but I may be wrong. I do know kids have very little respect for authority today. Ive picked kids up for doing stupid things not charged them with a crime but just drove them home to their parents house and have been cussed out by parents for harrassing their kids. I once had a 5 year old point her finger at me like a gun say "bang bang another dead Pig" and then laugh. I stoped and spoke to her parent her mom said "So what we dont like the F'in police in this house now get off my property." Some how I dont see that happening 50 years ago.

This is one thing I wish I knew how to fix in society because it makes me worried about the future. I think part of it is the ME ME ME attitude that d1jinx mentioned I just dont know how we got here today or see a way to move it back a few pegs.

 

[WC_lun]

To me, society has gotten more polarized, rather than a general lack of respect. There aren't a greater number of asshats, but they do take it further than they used too. What is deemed acceptable behavior by these people, would not even have been considered 50 years ago. On the other hand, we see people who do really great deeds. I don't think we tend to notice those people as much. Our media certainly seems to like to report more on the people who behave badly, maling them celebrities of sort. I think we tend to notice the people who behave badly more in our personal lives as well.

I don't think we can put a label on Travon yet. It would be best to just wait for the trial and see what conspired.

 

[ballen0351]

I don't think we can put a label on Travon yet. It would be best to just wait for the trial and see what conspired.

I wasnt really speaking of Travon in the above post but more society in general. I dont know the story on what happened with Travon.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

A more nuanced picture of GZ emerges. Not quite the monster he's being painted as.

Self-appointed watch captain? No. Apparently asked by his neighborhood HOA to organize a NW and be its captain.

Wanna-be cop? Stated he wanted to be a judge; went to school for a criminal justice degree, was one credit shy when the shooting occurred.

Racist? His maternal grandmother, who helped raise him was Afro-Peruvian; he's part black as well as hispanic and white. He also grew up in a mixed-race household, according to other family members and friends who knew him growing up. He owned his own insurance store for a time, with a friend as a partner who was black. Doesn't seem like a racist would want to do that.

Gun-toting guy eager to shoot someone? Never owned a gun until his wife was repeatedly threatened by a neighborhood dog that kept running loose and advised to purchase a gun by authorities; he and his wife both completed safety training and were issued CCW permits. Most of his friends didn't even know he carried. Hardly someone who was gun-crazy.

Why did he suspect Trayvon? According to a neighbor (whom the article states clearly is black herself), it was because young black men had been breaking into houses in the complex, leading to the HOA asking GZ to become NW captain.

This is all anecdotal. It doesn't mean GZ did or did not do the things he is accused of. But it kind of blows up the notion that he was some kind of blood-thirsty racist monster, hoping that one day he could shoot a black teenager to death and get away with it.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-zimmerman-idUSBRE83O18H20120425

I realize that those who have already arrived at an opinion regarding GZ's racism are not going to believe one word of this Reuters article. That's telling as well.

 

[Wo Fat]

I agree I dont understand how or why there was such a big change or really if it is a change at all maybe people have always been this was we just think of the old days as being more "leave it to beaver." I would guess things have gotten worse but I may be wrong. I do know kids have very little respect for authority today. Ive picked kids up for doing stupid things not charged them with a crime but just drove them home to their parents house and have been cussed out by parents for harrassing their kids. I once had a 5 year old point her finger at me like a gun say "bang bang another dead Pig" and then laugh. I stoped and spoke to her parent her mom said "So what we dont like the F'in police in this house now get off my property." Some how I dont see that happening 50 years ago.

This is one thing I wish I knew how to fix in society because it makes me worried about the future. I think part of it is the ME ME ME attitude that d1jinx mentioned I just dont know how we got here today or see a way to move it back a few pegs.

Again, we're in agreement. There has been a serious loss of civility, decency and common respect (I confess, I'm occasionally guilty of it). For sure, it's coming from kids in society. But it's also coming from adults. Kids notice this.

A basic lack of respect and civility exists in pretty much all facets of society today (business, education, government). You name it, we (the adults; the authority) have lost our ability to respect and honor one another. It's no wonder that kids emulate that. Not all adults are suffer from a lack of basic respect, and not all kids are disrespectful of adults. But there is enough disrespect and dishonor in society that we have a serious problem.

 

[Sukerkin]

It is possible to win some of that civil behaviour back by example, mind you.

My place of work is a much more polite environment now than it was when I started and I like to flatter myself with thinking I had a part to play in that. Simple things that should be basic courtesy but sometimes get forgotten can be reawakened in people. Just holding a door for someone, saying "Good morning" when you pass in the corridors, addressing people as Mister, Missus etc, all make a difference to how pleasant the day is.

 

[Wo Fat]

Why did he suspect Trayvon? According to a neighbor (whom the article states clearly is black herself), it was because young black men had been breaking into houses in the complex, leading to the HOA asking GZ to become NW captain.

A while ago up-thread, someone took a stab at pointing out my or someone else's faulty logic (if [these do this] and [that does that] then [this is that] ... or some such supposed fallacy).

The above quote evidences the precise kind of logical fallacy that the earlier poster referenced:

Premise: Twin Lakes is a neighborhood;

Premise: Young Blacks had been burglarizing houses in the neighborhood;

Premise: Trayvon Martin is a young Black;

Conclusion: Trayvon Martin is a burglary suspect.

These kinds of absurd leaps in logic can definitely apply to other ethnicities and races as well. Think child molester, serial killer, financial fraudster, etc.

 

[Sukerkin]

I'm not so certain that is a logical fallacy as much as it is the way that humans tend to assess threats.

 

[granfire]

A while ago up-thread, someone took a stab at pointing out my or someone else's faulty logic (if [these do this] and [that does that] then [this is that] ... or some such supposed fallacy).

The above quote evidences the precise kind of logical fallacy that the earlier poster referenced:

Premise: Twin Lakes is a neighborhood;

Premise: Young Blacks had been burglarizing houses in the neighborhood;

Premise: Trayvon Martin is a young Black;

Conclusion: Trayvon Martin is a burglary suspect.

These kinds of absurd leaps in logic can definitely apply to other ethnicities and races as well. Think child molester, serial killer, financial fraudster, etc.

Lets face it, it's the game of mathematical probability, paired with the human element.

If the neighborhood had been hit by white guys in delivery trucks, the cable guy would have had to deal with suspicion.


(no, seriously, reread your post above. Tell me you don't see it! I mean, really REALLY really? Did you just go there?)

 

[Bill Mattocks]

After having taken and reading many armed robbery and strongarm robbery reports in my life, I have noticed that many of them begin with the same innocent prelude; the mugger asks the victim for a light for his cigarette. It's common, it's usual, it's a danger sign.

So if I am walking down the street and someone stops me and asks me for a light, I'm GOING TO BE SUSPICIOUS. Profiling? Yeah, sure, whatever. To not pay attention to that would be stupid on my part.

Now apply that to 'Twin Lakes'. By the Reuter's article, it is a fully integrated community; not a white enclave or anything of that sort. People of all races live there. However, the spate of recent burglaries have been recognized to have been committed by black teenage boys or young men. Not white, not hispanic, not asian, not girls. What kind of stupid does a person have to be to not take note of that?

When I was a police dispatcher and issued BOLOs on the radio, do you think I refused to mention the race of the person for whom the officers should look? I'd tell them what he was wearing, how tall he was, hair color and whatever else, but NOT skin color, because THAT would be profiling? Nonsense.

It is not racist to take note of the skin color of the person or persons who have been seen burglarizing homes in the area recently. It would exceedingly stupid to fail to take note of it. At that point, it's a physical attribute, no different than hair color or eye color or age or gender or clothing worn or vehicle driven. It's a legitimate description.

But as I said, those who already have their minds made up will not be convinced by any set of facts whatsoever. They cannot change their opinion, because their world view precludes it.

 

[Wo Fat]

It's not profiling; it's common sense.

It's not profiling; it's simply good math.

Fact: the only times in my life that I have had uninitiated violent or near-violent encounters were with White males who didn't like the fact that I was dating a White female. I live in Southern suburban area where the male population is predominantly White.

Is it common sense or good math to conclude that my next violent or near-violent confrontation will likely be with a bigoted White male?

 

[billc]

Here is part of the article from Reuters, who investigated George Zimmerman...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-zimmerman-idUSBRE83O18H20120425

But a more nuanced portrait of Zimmerman has emerged from a Reuters investigation into Zimmerman's past and a series of incidents in the community in the months preceding the Martin shooting.

Based on extensive interviews with relatives, friends, neighbors, schoolmates and co-workers of Zimmerman in two states, law enforcement officials, and reviews of court documents and police reports, the story sheds new light on the man at the center of one of the most controversial homicide cases in America.
The 28-year-old insurance-fraud investigator comes from a deeply Catholic background and was taught in his early years to do right by those less fortunate. He was raised in a racially integrated household and himself has black roots through an Afro-Peruvian great-grandfather - the father of the maternal grandmother who helped raise him.
A criminal justice student who aspired to become a judge, Zimmerman also concerned himself with the safety of his neighbors after a series of break-ins committed by young African-American men.
Though civil rights demonstrators have argued Zimmerman should not have prejudged Martin, one black neighbor of the Zimmermans said recent history should be taken into account.
"Let's talk about the elephant in the room. I'm black, OK?" the woman said, declining to be identified because she anticipated backlash due to her race. She leaned in to look a reporter directly in the eyes. "There were black boys robbing houses in this neighborhood," she said. "That's why George was suspicious of Trayvon Martin."

Gladys came to lead a small but growing Catholic Hispanic enclave within the All Saints Catholic Church parish in the late 1970s, where she was involved in the church's outreach programs. Gladys would bring young George along with her on "home visits" to poor families, said a family friend, Teresa Post.

"It was part of their upbringing to know that there are people in need, people more in need than themselves," said Post, a Peruvian immigrant who lived with the Zimmermans for a time.
Post recalls evening prayers before dinner in the ethnically diverse Zimmerman household, which included siblings Robert Jr., Grace, and Dawn. "It wasn't only white or only Hispanic or only black - it was mixed," she said.
Zimmerman's maternal grandmother, Cristina, who had lived with the Zimmermans since 1978, worked as a babysitter for years during Zimmerman's childhood. For several years she cared for two African-American girls who ate their meals at the Zimmerman house and went back and forth to school each day with the Zimmerman children.
"They were part of the household for years, until they were old enough to be on their own," Post said.

Perhaps the following expains why Zimmerman was so vigilant...

A NEIGHBORHOOD IN FEAR

By the summer of 2011, Twin Lakes was experiencing a rash of burglaries and break-ins. Previously a family-friendly, first-time homeowner community, it was devastated by the recession that hit the Florida housing market, and transient renters began to occupy some of the 263 town houses in the complex. Vandalism and occasional drug activity were reported, and home values plunged. One resident who bought his home in 2006 for $250,000 said it was worth $80,000 today.
At least eight burglaries were reported within Twin Lakes in the 14 months prior to the Trayvon Martin shooting, according to the Sanford Police Department. Yet in a series of interviews, Twin Lakes residents said dozens of reports of attempted break-ins and would-be burglars casing homes had created an atmosphere of growing fear in the neighborhood.
In several of the incidents, witnesses identified the suspects to police as young black men. Twin Lakes is about 50 percent white, with an African-American and Hispanic population of about 20 percent each, roughly similar to the surrounding city of Sanford, according to U.S. Census data.
One morning in July 2011, a black teenager walked up to Zimmerman's front porch and stole a bicycle, neighbors told Reuters. A police report was taken, though the bicycle was not recovered.
But it was the August incursion into the home of Olivia Bertalan that really troubled the neighborhood, particularly Zimmerman. Shellie was home most days, taking online courses towards certification as a registered nurse.
On August 3, Bertalan was at home with her infant son while her husband, Michael, was at work. She watched from a downstairs window, she said, as two black men repeatedly rang her doorbell and then entered through a sliding door at the back of the house. She ran upstairs, locked herself inside the boy's bedroom, and called a police dispatcher, whispering frantically.

"I said, 'What am I supposed to do? I hear them coming up the stairs!'" she told Reuters. Bertalan tried to coo her crying child into silence and armed herself with a pair of rusty scissors.

Police arrived just as the burglars - who had been trying to disconnect the couple's television - fled out a back door. Shellie Zimmerman saw a black male teen running through her backyard and reported it to police.
After police left Bertalan, George Zimmerman arrived at the front door in a shirt and tie, she said. He gave her his contact numbers on an index card and invited her to visit his wife if she ever felt unsafe. He returned later and gave her a stronger lock to bolster the sliding door that had been forced open.
"He was so mellow and calm, very helpful and very, very sweet," she said last week. "We didn't really know George at first, but after the break-in we talked to him on a daily basis. People were freaked out. It wasn't just George calling police ... we were calling police at least once a week."
In September, a group of neighbors including Zimmerman approached the homeowners association with their concerns, she said. Zimmerman was asked to head up a new neighborhood watch. He agreed.

Does this witness testimony paint a different picture of the neighborhood and of George Zimmerman?

 

[granfire]

It's not profiling; it's common sense.

It's not profiling; it's simply good math.

Fact: the only times in my life that I have had uninitiated violent or near-violent encounters were with White males who didn't like the fact that I was dating a White female. I live in Southern suburban area where the male population is predominantly White.

Is it common sense or good math to conclude that my next violent or near-violent confrontation will likely be with a bigoted White male?

So you are the George Jefferson of the county.

In your case, you were dating willing white female(s).
That is yours and her business.
had there been a string of rapes done by a black guy...now, there is the difference.

Oh, right...the crime aspect.

Somewhere along the line your logic is taking a detour I can't follow.

We'll see at the trial I suppose....

 

[ballen0351]

It's not profiling; it's common sense.

It's not profiling; it's simply good math.

Fact: the only times in my life that I have had uninitiated violent or near-violent encounters were with White males who didn't like the fact that I was dating a White female. I live in Southern suburban area where the male population is predominantly White.

Is it common sense or good math to conclude that my next violent or near-violent confrontation will likely be with a bigoted White male?

Thats kind of a flawed argument. If in fact there were an increase in burglaries in the area and if the suspects are identifed as young black males it would be only make sense that when you see a strange young black male then as a neighborhood watch person you would want to check them out.

Recent example we have a neighborhood thats has an increase in burglary in the last 2 months. We have footage of the suspect hes a hispanic male looks to be mid 20s tall and skinny. So when im in the area should i not be looking for a young hispanic male tall and skinny? I of course wont only look for hispanics but if i notice one acting suspicious like walking in the rain thru the neighborhood should i not atbleast watch them.for a bit tosee what hes doing?