Train TMA but fight like kickboxer

[Wing Woo Gar]

This is where I see many kung fu practitioners get things wrong. There is a mindset where one's skill is tied to how many forms they know. Similar to how some people tie skill level to black belts. A person who could fight using only the techniques in the beginner form would still be seen as a beginner, simply because he only knows the beginner form.

Small circle Jiu Jitsu Wally Jay style focused on only about twelve techniques over and over but those guys were incredibly good fighters.

 

[Flying Crane]

Small circle Jiu Jitsu Wally Jay style focused on only about twelve techniques over and over but those guys were incredibly good fighters.

And you begin to understand how that small core of techniques can be applied creatively, in nearly infinite situations. They are effective solutions to nearly any problem you might encounter.

 

[skribs]

This just goes around and around and around. It's a strawman argument.

"Here is the ideal goal. Your TMA can't give you that, therefore it sucks."

"That is not my goal."

"Then you cannot fight."

"I do not train strictly to fight, and you don't understand the principles of TMA enough to criticize it."

"If you do not fight, your TMA sucks."

I'm tired of it. I know how to fight. I've been in more than a couple. I don't need to be told what you think my system lacks. I don't train to fight the way you think I should. I don't even train to fight anymore. I train because I'm on a path that gives me something I value.

I do not need or want your validation that my art meets your requirements. It meets mine. Are we clear?

The problem I have with this line of thinking, is that it suggests that you can't learn to fight from an art. It's like we're accepting that we're inferior.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The problem I have with this line of thinking, is that it suggests that you can't learn to fight from an art. It's like we're accepting that we're inferior.

More like you can't learn to fight without doing it. We can learn kata or forms without doing them. The more we do it the better we get.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Small circle Jiu Jitsu Wally Jay style focused on only about twelve techniques over and over but those guys were incredibly good fighters.

One technique may have many applications and many variations. It's one of the things I like about squeezing as much out of Jow Ga before I go to the next technique. 10+ years and I'm still learning new stuff from the beginner form.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

The problem I have with this line of thinking, is that it suggests that you can't learn to fight from an art. It's like we're accepting that we're inferior.

To me, it's a case of horses for courses. If I wanted to learn to fight MMA style, then there are ways to train for that. I don't. And yet, some suggest that yes I do, or they suggest that it's what I should properly want to do, and I do not. Period. It's a classic straw man, assume I want something I don't want, and then explain how what I do won't get me there. I'm frankly sick of it.

As to inferior, my art is neither inferior nor superior. I am not the pinnacle of isshinryu perfection and I will never be that. Yet I am well equipped to defend myself against the average knucklehead, which is just fine with me. I don't dream of MMA glory or back-alley brawling with street fighters. And such situations will never happen to me, so I'm good.

I'm just so tired of this never-ending style bashing. I do what I do for reasons that are not open to anyone else's judgment. They do what they do. I neither know nor do I care if they can outfight me with their amazing incredible techniques. Good for them.

To the OP, you need your style to be better than mine. Ok, it's better. We good now? I don't care. About you or your style.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'd modify that...

If you fight enough in a kingboxing ring under kickboxing rules, you will fight like a kickboxer and your style will look like kickboxing.

Here is my question:

If your MA system doesn't train

- head dodging,
- roundhouse kick,

will you be able to develop those skills through sparring?

Here is my personal experience.

- During the early stage of my long fist training, we used the rule that 1 person played offense and 1 person played defense. When I played defense, since I could not fight back, I developed head dodging (move my head left, right, back, ...) through sparring.

- If my opponent and I both have right side forward, when my opponent switches sides (put his left side forward), my left leg roundhouse kick will go toward his waist without thinking. I developed roundhouse kick through sparring.

The interested thing is my primary long fist system doesn't train head dodging and roundhouse kick during the beginner stage. But through sparring, I could developed both.

At that time, I was young, lived in Taiwan (1964). The kickboxing was not even created yet. Of course in those sparring, we used a lot of foot sweep that kickboxers don't normally use.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

A martial system has a particular look about it when it is being trained. But it can look like anything when it is being used in a real fight.

IMO, form training and fighting should not be too far apart.

If you have never jumped up in your form training, there is no way that suddenly you can use flying side kick in fighting.

 

[JowGaWolf]

will you be able to develop those skills through sparring?

Yes. When you play dodgeball do you not dodge? When you play more dodgeball do you not get better at dodging?

For the most part I don't think it needs to be trained. In terms of TMA the dodge mechanism is built in the technique or footwork which is why 45° angle and the 90° angle is common in all fighting systems.

The student only needs to follow instruction and he or she will have a short path to learning. Or the student can ignore the instructions and learn the hard way through first hand experience.

To me, it's a case of horses for courses. If I wanted to learn to fight MMA style, then there are ways to train for that. I don't. And yet, some suggest that yes I do, or they suggest that it's what I should properly want to do, and I do not. Period. It's a classic straw man, assume I want something I don't want, and then explain how what I do won't get me there. I'm frankly sick of it.

As to inferior, my art is neither inferior nor superior. I am not the pinnacle of isshinryu perfection and I will never be that. Yet I am well equipped to defend myself against the average knucklehead, which is just fine with me. I don't dream of MMA glory or back-alley brawling with street fighters. And such situations will never happen to me, so I'm good.

I'm just so tired of this never-ending style bashing. I do what I do for reasons that are not open to anyone else's judgment. They do what they do. I neither know nor do I care if they can outfight me with their amazing incredible techniques. Good for them.

To the OP, you need your style to be better than mine. Ok, it's better. We good now? I don't care. About you or your style.

I don't think Kung Fu Wang is asking because he doesn't know. I think he's asking because he wants people to think.

 

[Flying Crane]

IMO, form training and fighting should not be too far apart.

If you have never jumped up in your form training, there is no way that suddenly you can use flying side kick in fighting.

I would never use a flying side kick in fighting.

 

[JowGaWolf]

IMO, form training and fighting should not be too far apart.

Only if you want to use it in fighting. For example. I can swim. But what I use in swimming is not good for competition and racing. Should I always train my swimming as if I'm trying to compete?

Do I need to train hard to enjoy swimming? If my only goal is to enjoy Kung Fu then there's no need for me to worry about application and hard training. But for me my goal is to be a good representation of Jow Ga. That means I must train harder and understand more than I would if I only want to enjoy it.

Do I need to be a programmer in order to enjoy a video game? Game designers like games but they must know more about them than I do.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I don't think Kung Fu Wang is asking because he doesn't know. I think he's asking because he wants people to think.

I disagree. I believe he is asking because he has an agenda. He simply ignores any answer or point of view which does not support his agenda.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I would never use a flying side kick in fighting.

It's great in the movies.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I would never use a flying side kick in fighting.

I used one, only once.. It didn't work well. I would still use one but only if my opponent didn't know it was coming and didn't know I was coming.

I think Hollywood has warped the true application of a kick like that. The kick is more something that you would do if you were charging someone that didn't have a lot of mobility like a defensive line of people trying to prevent entry. The flying side kick doesn't make sense nor does it work really well when fighting one on one. But think of a scenario where your opponent doesn't have a lot of movement or if your opponent is fairly static and it begins to make sense.

But with that said, some people have gotten away with it. Just not me.

 

[Flying Crane]

I used one, only once.. It didn't work well. I would still use one but only if my opponent didn't know it was coming and didn't know I was coming.

I think Hollywood has warped the true application of a kick like that. The kick is more something that you would do if you were charging someone that didn't have a lot of mobility like a defensive line of people trying to prevent entry. The flying side kick doesn't make sense nor does it work really well when fighting one on one. But think of a scenario where your opponent doesn't have a lot of movement or if your opponent is fairly static and it begins to make sense.

But with that said, some people have gotten away with it. Just not me.

I used to train it in the heavy bag regularly, so I am quite familiar. I would never use one in a fight.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I used to train it in the heavy bag regularly, so I am quite familiar. I would never use one in a fight.

We probably should find that link of the thread with our previous discussion about flying side kicks. It's not the first time we've been on this path lol

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I would never use a flying side kick in fighting.

A 45 degree downward flying side kick at opponent's front leg knee joint is an excellent entering strategy. It puts opponent in a complete defense mode. The leading leg knee joint is the "only" target for my "flying side kick".

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I disagree. I believe he is asking because he has an agenda. He simply ignores any answer or point of view which does not support his agenda.

When people said, "You fight like a kickboxer." I truly don't understand the meaning of that. That's why I start this thread. I would like to ask people's opinions about, "What's a non-kickboxing fight suppose to look like?"

I'm not ignoring people's opinions. I just don't want to get into argument. Of course I have my own personal opinion (to me, MA is for combat and nothing else). But that doesn't mean when other has different opinion (such as MA is for health, performance, culture, inner peace, ...), I have to argue with that person.

I don't start a thread so I can argue with people. I prefer to agree with people that I agree with than to disagree with people that I don't agree with.

 

[Steve]

The system I train in and teach includes several traditional CMA styles. It also includes the jabs, hooks, uppercuts and feints of western boxing. It also includes takedown defense etc. it does not include the traditional weapons training and most forms are not taught for about the first year or more. I focus movement with balance, posture, and coordination. So, while we practice TCMA, My Sigung and Sifu have incorporated these other concepts and movements of western boxing and takedown defense into the system. Sifu Woo was continually evolving the system based on real experience with what works. Gene Lebell was a close friend of his, I’m certain that had some effect on the way we do things. I guess what I’m trying to say is that each system has merits. I tend to think of them as ingredients. In the end, the recipe is about motion. The practitioner in relationship to himself. Humans all have the same parts that work similarly to one degree or another. I think staying true to the foundations of movement and physics as principles over technique or style prevents stagnation. That said, I dont begin to believe that I necessarily know better that my predecessors. I’m careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water.

A carpenter who uses only traditional hand tools still builds actual stuff. A traditional martial artist who has never been in a fight is not doing the same thing his predecessors did. This is where the LARP descriptor is used. Though I personally think that’s insulting to LARPers because they are, in general, self aware and having fun.

 

[BrendanF]

When people said, "You fight like a kickboxer." I truly don't understand the meaning of that. That's why I start this thread. I would like to ask people's opinions about, "What's a non-kickboxing fight suppose to look like?"

This is the issue many people have with traditional martial arts that practice or teach stylised techniques. Of course fighting is going to look like fighting, so the practicing of stylised techniques invariably amounts to little.