Traditional Training Styles - importance of non-compliant training

[iron_ox]

I guess it depends on WHOSE hip throw.

If he believes his wouldn't work on anybody who is awake and/or resisting, I believe him.

But then, I have significantly more confidence in mine being effective (Moo Sul Kwan has always been known for its effective full-circle throws).

And the more a resisting person "starfishes" out, the more likely they are to come down on a limb in a way that causes significant injury. We don't expect them to fall pretty in combat like they do in training. We only fall like that in training so we can get back up and be thrown again.

This hip toss? Don't see anything here but compliant throwing, and if you think this hip toss will work in the real world, well, they must fight really special like in St. Louis area.

 

[iron_ox]

And in doing so, set themselves up to be thrown even harder in a different direction.

That is the principle of being like water, isn't it? Find the path of least resistance. Let them decide which way they want to be thrown.

Sadly I am really uncertain you have trained with enough resisting opponents to truly understand what happens when a hip toss is blocked. The person trying the throw is placed off balance and is easily overpowered. This was Choi Dojunim's initial experience with Suh Bok Sup, a Judo Blackbelt that Choi Dojunim overpowered so easily the Suh begged Choi Dojunim to teach him.

And the water principle is far more than "finding a path of least resistance". It is about creating a whole in an offense, or finding a whole in an offense and exploiting it.

 

[iron_ox]

Exactly: you have to get your hips lower than theirs and put them in a state of off-balance.

Learning effective throwing is difficult; is hard work. Most people aren't willing to do the hard work it takes to develop effective throwing and assume that because we ARE able to pull it off, that our partners must be making it easy for us.

Coming in low is hard. Timing things so you can take advantage of their off-balanced state is hard to develop, too.

These "big circle" throws that you consider effective and the ones you "ARE" able to pull off? (Starting at about 3:00)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqjvcdudRZE&feature=relmfu

Sorry, it didn't want to link.

 

[iron_ox]

To get us back on topic, here is a video of a non-compliant DEMO:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/103612-Jungki-Kwan-Demonstration-Video

 

[Dwi Chugi]

This hip toss? Don't see anything here but compliant throwing, and if you think this hip toss will work in the real world, well, they must fight really special like in St. Louis area.

I am not sure if this is fair to compare what may or may not work in a live situation since this appears to be a training drill being started from a static postition. Yes, it looks like there is very little being done to counter this technique, but its a drill. When I trained Judo we would do a drill simular but with two people Uki (throwies) on either side of the Tori (thrower). We would have to run than to the other, throwing them.

For me when I use the hip/shoulder throw in a live sparring match or when we are running a line and I am being attacked, it is usually the attacker that off balances himself to make the throw possible. They are either attaching with a punch, push, tug or whatever and I feel their energy move forward.

I teach the hip/shoulder throw at Orange Belt level and I teach the counters to such throws two belts later at Purple Belt level.

I am really not sure if traditional Hapkido had hip throws or not, I do know Choi's first student was a black belt in Judo so I would conclude that traditional Hapkido at least had counters. When I say traditional, I mean the way Choi taught it. My Grandmaster was a student of Choi's and he always taught hip and shoulder throws. He also is a Black Belt in Judo and Taekwondo so some of the throws may have been from his Judo days.

With that being said, I have trained hip/shoulder throws quite a bit, they are second nature, I have pulled them off at BJJ schools, Judo schools, Krav Maga schools and in my own school with my students. I have countered quite a few in my day as well. I have not used them in street fights because I have not really been in a real street fight since I was a in high school. Most of my "hands on" knowledge came from the dojang and as a body guarding.

I will say this, I am comfortable enough with my hip/shoulder throw that if the chance presented itself in a self-defense situation I would throw it and throw it so hard that my attacker would not get up for a while.

"What is the best weapon?
THE EARTH"

My two cents. Thank you for listening.

 

[iron_ox]

I am not sure if this is fair to compare what may or may not work in a live situation since this appears to be a training drill being started from a static postition. Yes, it looks like there is very little being done to counter this technique, but its a drill. When I trained Judo we would do a drill simular but with two people Uki (throwies) on either side of the Tori (thrower). We would have to run than to the other, throwing them.

For me when I use the hip/shoulder throw in a live sparring match or when we are running a line and I am being attacked, it is usually the attacker that off balances himself to make the throw possible. They are either attaching with a punch, push, tug or whatever and I feel their energy move forward.

I teach the hip/shoulder throw at Orange Belt level and I teach the counters to such throws two belts later at Purple Belt level.

I am really not sure if traditional Hapkido had hip throws or not, I do know Choi's first student was a black belt in Judo so I would conclude that traditional Hapkido at least had counters. When I say traditional, I mean the way Choi taught it. My Grandmaster was a student of Choi's and he always taught hip and shoulder throws. He also is a Black Belt in Judo and Taekwondo so some of the throws may have been from his Judo days.

With that being said, I have trained hip/shoulder throws quite a bit, they are second nature, I have pulled them off at BJJ schools, Judo schools, Krav Maga schools and in my own school with my students. I have countered quite a few in my day as well. I have not used them in street fights because I have not really been in a real street fight since I was a in high school. Most of my "hands on" knowledge came from the dojang and as a body guarding.

I will say this, I am comfortable enough with my hip/shoulder throw that if the chance presented itself in a self-defense situation I would throw it and throw it so hard that my attacker would not get up for a while.

"What is the best weapon?
THE EARTH"

My two cents. Thank you for listening.

This thread is about the importance of non-compliant training. I mentioned the hip toss thing because someone else brought it up. This video is a perfect example of non-compliant training and drilling - why bother to do it at all? And the point is much more that hip tosses are very easily countered - especially those shown above.

Hapkido does have hip throws, delivered quite differently from the Judo style ones. Yes, Choi Dojunim's first student was a Judo backbelt, who was never able to throw Choi Dojunim. Your Grandmaster is GM Jung Hwan Park? He did have some training with Choi Dojunim, and at his dojang where he trained under Choi Dojunim's instructors, his primary rank is in TKD, but I understand he has Judo rank as well.

Again, the thread is about compliant training - not the validity of the hip toss, but I will add that unlike many other techniques, the circumstances of doing a hip toss in a non-compliant situation are rare at best.

Not looking to annoy anyone, just want to steer us back on track...

 

[Dwi Chugi]

This thread is about the importance of non-compliant training. I mentioned the hip toss thing because someone else brought it up. This video is a perfect example of non-compliant training and drilling - why bother to do it at all? And the point is much more that hip tosses are very easily countered - especially those shown above.

Hapkido does have hip throws, delivered quite differently from the Judo style ones. Yes, Choi Dojunim's first student was a Judo backbelt, who was never able to throw Choi Dojunim. Your Grandmaster is GM Jung Hwan Park? He did have some training with Choi Dojunim, and at his dojang where he trained under Choi Dojunim's instructors, his primary rank is in TKD, but I understand he has Judo rank as well.

Again, the thread is about compliant training - not the validity of the hip toss, but I will add that unlike many other techniques, the circumstances of doing a hip toss in a non-compliant situation are rare at best.

Not looking to annoy anyone, just want to steer us back on track...

Park is my Grandmaster and though I have trained under him directly the majority of my Hapkido has come from one of his high ranking students that is a master of Hapkido. I think it's appropriate to disclose that so there is no misunderstandings.

I know GM Park held black belts in Taekwondo and judo when he began his private lessons with GM Choi. In fact by the time he started HKD he served in the US Army as unarmed combat instructor, was captured twice in Vietnam and escaped twice, and earned his degree as a Doctor in Vetenary Mecication.

GM Park has said that GM Choi's nickname for him was "Taekwondo" because it took him about three years to stop trying to use TKD theory on the Hapkido he was trying to learn. I am guessing that he got the theories down because his Hapkido is pretty good.

As of GM Park training under GM Choi's student instructors the only one he mentioned was a Mr. Kim that was a HKD black belt that wanted to train some TKD at the dojang Park was a student at. His TKD master placed Kim and Park together and they exchanged ideas. That was way before he started directly under Choi in 1969, I believe.

It would make since to me that he may have studied under other masters though so I'm not discounting that. It will be a great question I can ask him the next time we are together.

Back to the original thread. My point is that I go to other schools of martial arts and train and spar against other martial artist. When I spar a jujitsu player they are being very non-compliant. If fact, they are trying to get me to the ground so they can work their BJJ magic. My point was my hip and shoulder throws work. My outer wrist throws work. My step under throw almost worked, but I elbowed the guy before I got the throw off. All these worked for me sparring non-compliant and resisting martial artist that compete. I could not use all my HKD techniques because there are rules in bjj.

As of the video you posted of the group throwing each other, all I can say its was a drill. Agree with it or not, that way of training works for them. I do drills to teach people how to lower their hips. How to get under the person. How to do a technique when you are tired.

I can not speak for my other Hapkido brothers on this thread, but I personally do not find your post annoying. I enjoy talking about Hapkido with like minded people. It is how we grow. I learn from everyone I encounter even if we do not agree on certain things.

I do think however, Hapkidoin try to discredit each other a little too much. There are dozens of other martial arts systems that would love to discredit Hapkido as an art. There are a lot of bad Hapkido styles out there, that is true. There is a lot of great Hapkido systems that can help spread the word, that as a whole Hapkido is the best street defense system there is.

Just my two cents, thank you for listening.

 

[zDom]

The people being tested in this clip are the ones being thrown, not the throwers.

They have just gone through a vigorous two-hour test.

It's not a test of throwing effectiveness on display.

So what's your point?

 

[zDom]

I do think however, Hapkidoin try to discredit each other a little too much. ... There are a lot of bad Hapkido styles out there, that is true. There is a lot of great Hapkido systems that can help spread the word, that as a whole Hapkido is the best street defense system there is.

So sad and so true: as if putting down another branch of hapkido in some way lifts up someone else's.

 

[zDom]

Sadly I am really uncertain you have trained with enough resisting opponents to truly understand what happens when a hip toss is blocked. The person trying the throw is placed off balance and is easily overpowered. This was Choi Dojunim's initial experience with Suh Bok Sup, a Judo Blackbelt that Choi Dojunim overpowered so easily the Suh begged Choi Dojunim to teach him.

I think the time I spent drilling attempts to complete throws with Mr. Rob Bullock, dan ranked hapkido and something like 6'3 and 270 lbs, with him resisting helped me understand what it is you think I don't understand.

I also learned a lot when training with a guy one inch shorter than me at 5' 11" and 300 lbs who was a yellow belt and terrified of falling. Talk about resistance...

And other training experiences I could bore you with.

But I would never have been able to even begin exploring a hip throw if blackbelts resisted me while I was trying to learn the basics of the throw.

I sincerely am interested in seeing how you train new students. What we are doing at MSK IS working for us, however, and has been for several generations.

As flawed as you think our training methods are, MSK hapkidon HAVE on many occasions effectively thrown not just a "resisting partner" but an actual attacker in actual self defense situations.

And the water principle is far more than "finding a path of least resistance". It is about creating a whole in an offense, or finding a whole in an offense and exploiting it.

You mean hole in the defense, don't you?

And I did not claim that was the totality of the water principle. You obviously think about it a whole lot more than I do so I would be interested in reading what you have to say about the water principle in detail. Maybe you should start a thread.

 

[zDom]

These "big circle" throws that you consider effective and the ones you "ARE" able to pull off? (Starting at about 3:00)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqjvcdudRZE&feature=relmfu

Sorry, it didn't want to link.

Some of those are. One is an air fall over a wrist lock which allows them defender to do larger range of motion. We know it doesn't make people fly through the air.

You realize those are gup ranked students in a live demonstration situation, right?

Next can we juxtaposition footage of Grandmaster Lee H. Park doing technique with a master level student alongside one of your green belts?

 

[zDom]

... a perfect example of non-compliant training and drilling - why bother to do it at all? And the point is much more that hip tosses are very easily countered - especially those shown above. .

A punch is very easily countered: so why bother to do them at all?

Etc.


The non-compliant training allows practitioners to get much, MUCH more repetition in. With reps comes better technique.


I'd like to invite you to come do even 50 reps with a "compliant" partner and see how you feel. It is a very good workout.

That doesn't mean we ONLY train non-compliant situations. But you aren't going to get a good, practiced motion trying to get 50 reps in with a resisting partner.

I agree that having training against resistance is necessary for effective technique

You seem to disagree with the idea that getting repetition in with a non-resisting partner is a good way to get a well-trained movement. I think you are wrong — but that's OK. There have been different ideas on how to train hapkido since Choi started teaching and so we have, generations later, many different hapkido schools.

But your attitude is closed-minded and arrogant.

I think my way is better, but I'm not going to publicly call your way crap: it might not be. I might be wrong. Reckon I'd have to spend some time on the mat before I could really make an informed decision.

You, on the other hand, can say what you want but you are wrong. What we do works. Pontificating about how we are doing it all wrong doesn't change that.

And I genuinely smell a case of "sour grapes": you aren't able to do some of the things we do so you convince yourself (and try to convince everybody else) that it isn't worth being able to do anyway. If you knew as much about hapkido as you think you do you might see in even a few small clips what we are doing well instead of trying to pick apart gup technique to make sweeping criticisms of a solid hapkido curriculum.


And we aren't in St. Louis: my instructor teaches in Cape Girardeau. His students teach in Cape and Sikeston.

Come down and visit. If you can make it through the warmup with enough breath left to speak maybe you can teach me something.

 

[Doomx2001]

You know, one of the biggest problems with forums is the very thing they thrive on: Language. We mis-spell words, don't use correct grammar, and in most cases we ignore certain unsaid social protocals that we otherwise would not do in the real world resulting in people feeling insulted or hurt. Its such an easy thing to do, regrettably, and were all guilty of it at one point or another. Especially when comes to things that are dear and true to our hearts.

Alot of the conflict that arises from message boards is from the fact that we, as humans, actually communicate more through body language! Its been said that body language consist of 60 to 70 percent of human communication! So, its no wonder that we as humans being are more prone to have sever disagreements on issues when communicating on message boards. Also taking into account the use of negative words spoken in a positive tone meant in a positive way is something that the written language lacks, unless you want to type a book to convey a simple idea.
I say this as it relates to the current 'feelings' on a hipthrow.

I figured that I would mention that from my current understanding, Iron_Ox is trying to say that non-compliant hipthrows, as how they relate to the principles and Jungki method, don't work well for him and maybe his class. This could be because Jungki Kwan Hapkido focuses on simplicity at its core, but then again I have not had the privilege to study the style so, I don't want to give any misconceptions.
As it relates to zDOMs argument of the effectiveness of a hipthrow in a non-compliant setting, he has said that it works well for him and his students. And this just may be because his style of Hapkido may operate under different principles than the Jungki Kwan.
This might be because judo throws in Hapkido have more in common with samurai jujutus (where you break the arm and throw the person as opposed to just throwing them in Judo) and maybe zDOMS style of Hapkido uses more actual Judo principles than orthodox Hapkido? Just a thought.
But I would like to say that there is validity in both points. A non-complaint hipthrow could be easily blocked, but it can also be done, otherwise someone would not have invented it.
I can say that because anyone who watches Judo tournaments or Judo training can observe this first hand as two Judoka fight for points and pride. As zDOM said, the drills created for Judo throws, help the students 'feel' when the time is right to hipthrow someone. Usually the students grab hold of one another as they push each other back and forth waiting for the right placement of the body, and to take the others balance. Judo drills are good for this. Very Um-Yang.

Focusing more on Non-Compliance in general besides what I had mention earlier about wrist grabs, I would like to get more into what I expect Non-Compliance to me as for when it comes to Hapkido.
Non-Compliance for me, would be someone grabbing you with one hand, and punching with another (instead of it hanging there as if they had a stroke in that arm). Non-Compliance to me means your training partner makes more of an effort to thwart your technique.

Non-Compliance is a really good thing in martial arts, it helps you build good technique. However, it can also prevent you from developing good technique.
Years ago, as I was starting out in the Bujinkan, I would train with certain people, where in which I would offer medium level resistence to their technique, but not enough to prevent them from doing it. These same individuals, when it was my turn, would not only stiffen up completely, but also twist, turn, and wrestle! When I trained with these individuals, I didn't learn nothing, and they were getting more out of the training. At class we do Gracie Jujutsu for ground work. There are drills you learn to get off your back, flip you oppenent off of you, and sit on his chest. The goal of drill is to learn the technique, flow with your opponent, and feel what he is doing (timing, Aiki, Hapki). Well, the individuals I alert to earlier took non-compliance or adding a little 'resistance' to my techniques for realisim as meaning 'sparring'. What was supposed to be a simple drill turned into a brazilian jujutsu grappling match where I learn nothing because I didn't get to learn the technique.
Thats why, from these experiences, I recommend training slowly, with intent (and low to medium resistence), to learn the techniques. Then, within the same day, your non-compliant training partner can go crazy with his non-compliance as you now have built an idea of at least what the technique looks like instead of your training partner making an *** of themselves, LOL.

Also, I just wanted to say, that it is a good thing to disagree. It makes for a good discussion. But no matter the things we say to each other in the heat of the moment, lets all remember that this is just the internet, and the internet can get silly as it usually does, but at the end of the day we prove our worth by the sweat we leave behind in the dojo along with our anger, worries, anxiety, and fears. I'm greatful to everyone on this message board and on others, because I learn so much from you guys. The information I gleam from you is priceless. It makes me a better Hapkiodist and all around martial artist. And as corny as this sounds, I say this with love.
Anyway, good thread we got goin' on here.

- Brian

 

[zDom]

You know, one of the biggest problems with forums is the very thing they thrive on: Language. ...

Wonderfully stated, Brian/Doom.

You paraphrased very well the points I was attempting to get across.

I do disagree with your timing, but as you pointed out: it is OK to disagree. In our system, the "learning" phase takes place over the first four to six years before resistance is regularly trained. I have no doubt many people will find that is way too long.

I on occasion resist a student or ask them to resist on a single or very few repetitions if I see they are not understanding the technique when I first show it to them — but after that I return to our traditional repetition without resistance to build smooth, correct technique.

(Sometimes I sneak in SOME resistance to build strength in their motions as they begin to show better movement )

I'm sure other schools are getting satisfactory results employing resistance immediately or much sooner, but what we do works so I don't see our training methods changing anytime soon in regards to this.

 

[WaterGal]

Interesting thread, but I'm not totally clear on what's meant by "non-compliant training" - are we talking about training drills where the receptive partner (the one getting thrown) is basically standing there but resisting the technique, full-blown sparring, or something in between? (It sounds to me like maybe not everybody on here are even talking about the same thing.)

I do think that both are important. If your partner doesn't resist at all, you're not going to learn the proper body mechanics, and of course sparring gives you a sense of how a real-life situation would go, which is totally different than drills.

As far as this thing with hip throws - they definitely are much, much harder to do on a moving opponent than a stationary one. I don't think I've ever successfully done one in a sparring situation, though I've had more advanced opponents manage to get one on me a couple times so I know they're not totally useless.

 

[WaterGal]

And I cannot speak for Aikido. But in Hapkido, using a strike or distraction as a function of doing a technique is unnecessary. Since most fights don't really start from a wrist grab...but the techniques we do from them should not require a strike to make them work. It is about proper mechanics, without them, adding a strike is useless.

I agree about using a strike merely as a distraction, especially if you don't know the body mechanics, but if you're doing it to actually injure I think it has it's place. If the objective is to incapacitate the opponent, breaking their kneecap will certainly help you with that.

 

[iron_ox]

Interesting thread, but I'm not totally clear on what's meant by "non-compliant training" - are we talking about training drills where the receptive partner (the one getting thrown) is basically standing there but resisting the technique, full-blown sparring, or something in between? (It sounds to me like maybe not everybody on here are even talking about the same thing.)

I do think that both are important. If your partner doesn't resist at all, you're not going to learn the proper body mechanics, and of course sparring gives you a sense of how a real-life situation would go, which is totally different than drills.

As far as this thing with hip throws - they definitely are much, much harder to do on a moving opponent than a stationary one. I don't think I've ever successfully done one in a sparring situation, though I've had more advanced opponents manage to get one on me a couple times so I know they're not totally useless.

Hello,

I am speaking about starting by grabbing with full resistance, doing Hapkido training without actually applying full resistance is not really worthwhile.

 

[iron_ox]

I agree about using a strike merely as a distraction, especially if you don't know the body mechanics, but if you're doing it to actually injure I think it has it's place. If the objective is to incapacitate the opponent, breaking their kneecap will certainly help you with that.

In my opinion, a strike is a strike, not a distraction - if you don't understand the body mechanics, train until you do! If, for whatever reason, you are grabbed in a fight, breaking an opponents knee is a bad idea as you will get dragged down.

Again, the point is that strikes are not necessary to make a technique work.

 

[Dwi Chugi]

In my opinion, a strike is a strike, not a distraction - if you don't understand the body mechanics, train until you do! If, for whatever reason, you are grabbed in a fight, breaking an opponents knee is a bad idea as you will get dragged down.

I call that "reaction dynamics". I try to get my higher gup and lower dan belts to understand that if you strike, know the direction in which your opponent is going to react. If the uke moves opposite of the way the naga wants them too, your Hapki technique will not work and you may off balance yourself in the process.

 

[iron_ox]

I call that "reaction dynamics". I try to get my higher gup and lower dan belts to understand that if you strike, know the direction in which your opponent is going to react. If the uke moves opposite of the way the naga wants them too, your Hapki technique will not work and you may off balance yourself in the process.

OK, but I am talking about what was referenced above which is having to use striking to make a technique work, I believe you are talking about a different idea. In any case, the technique itself should be based on your opponents offense, and at that point his direction should be predetermined.