Sparring and Hapkido?

[glad2bhere]

Dear S-M:

FWIW, I would heartily encourage you to take Kevin up on his offer, or find time to drop in on Rudys' up-coming event in Ohio. A HUGE portion of the Hapkido arts occurs between your ears and you can easily find yourself disappointed, frustrated, and confused even before you know it. Both Kevin and Rudy are excellent people with good hearts and the best intentions of their students in view. Even after some 20 years of Hapkido training I was still susceptible to abreacting against folks in the Hapkido community as a result of some recent experiences. I can tell you from personal experience that folks such as Kevin and Rudy are the sort of people you want to be around to help keep your feet under you as you walk the Warriors Path. Perhaps this is most important for someone such as yourself who is just starting off and only beginning to formulate your thoughts on your relationship with the KMA. I'm thinking you may want to accept a bit of guidance at these early stages.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[howard]

smellymonkey, it might be worth a try to just have a talk with the school and ask them to release you from your contract, given that you do not believe it is being met on their end. and even if you walk away, they might not come after you (would probably depend on their size - are they large enough to employ a collection agency and attorneys to try to prove you breached the contract?) just a thought...

at any rate, i agree with some of the others, that you should take up the generous offer made to you.

good luck. and at the very least, as you say, you've lived and learned.

 

[SmellyMonkey]

Wow. I sent Mr. Sogor a private-message thank you last night. I was very touched by his offer. I hope to drop by his school sometime in the next few weeks to thank him personally, and see what I've been missing by training at *y**'s Hapkido.

However, my weekend master (let's call her MJJ) is really "my master" in the full sense of the word. She has taken my wife and I on as "her" students. While she has been teaching hapkido at *y**'s for something like 8 years, she never really got to pass on her style because she was teaching at *y**'s school and had to follow *y**'s direction. MJJ told us that for the first time, she really feels like she has students of her own with us. My wife and I have been practicing what she teaches us just about every day, because we feel burdened (in a good way) with absorbing everything this women teaches us. Not just the Hapkido techniques, but about how to live life as a warrior.

She respects GM *y** very much, as he was like a father to her when she first came to America. Even though my wife and I might not be getting the best training at *y**'s school, we don't wish to disrepect GM *y** or get out of the contract in such a way that would dishonor GM *y**. It may seem like we have dishonored the father of our master! That wouldn't be good.

And about Mr. Sogor's offer... Sometime within the next year, MJJ will be opening a school of her own. Since she is my master, my wife and I will train at her dojang. If I were to train at Mr. Sogor's school, for free, until MJJ has a school of her own, I would feel like I had taken advantage of Mr. Sogor's kindness.

Again, I wish to say thanks to Mr. Sogor. If, for some reason, MJJ were to no longer wish to be our master, I hope you will allow my wife and I to be your students.

Trying to be honorable is tough!!!

To Howard- I think our school sells our contract to a third party. They have a pretty big collection department.

 

[hedgehogey]

Smellymonkey: You have the right idea. Training with a noncompliant partner is by far the best way to train, indeed it is very neccesary.

Some tips:
1: Use a tapout system

2: Buy mats, headgear, mma gloves

3: Usual rules at my school are no biting and no groin shots.

 

[SmellyMonkey]

Smellymonkey: You have the right idea. Training with a noncompliant partner is by far the best way to train, indeed it is very neccesary.

Some tips:
1: Use a tapout system

2: Buy mats, headgear, mma gloves

3: Usual rules at my school are no biting and no groin shots.

Hedge-

Are you a hapkidoist, or do you spar in another art? If you do this type of sparring in hapkido, what techniques are allowed? Finger locks and wrist locks?

Thanks for the reply.

 

[hedgehogey]

Hedge-

Are you a hapkidoist, or do you spar in another art? If you do this type of sparring in hapkido, what techniques are allowed? Finger locks and wrist locks?

Thanks for the reply.

Neg, I do vale tudo/bjj/muay thai. Wrist locks are allowed, but finger locks, no. The reason is that usually a person doesn't notice a broken finger until after the fight's over! Adrenaline usually makes it so the technique is useless in a fight AND likely to cause unintentional injury. Just not worth it.

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

Bruce and Kwan Jang Timmerman, Thanks for the kind words.

S.M. Thank you for the PM, it was very nice for you to respond. Feel free to drop by anytime that we have a listed class. You show great resolve to stay with your master - that is commendable.

Hapkido is claimed by many, known by some, taught by few.

I have been very lucky to happen into the right people at the right time. Anytime I can share that, I am more than happy to.

S.M., continue to question and learn, a real teacher will withhold nothing, and answer all questions to their fullest, so remember that the only question that is "unworthy" is the one not asked.

Hope to meet you soon,

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[howard]

...usually a person doesn't notice a broken finger until after the fight's over! Adrenaline usually makes it so the technique is useless in a fight AND likely to cause unintentional injury. Just not worth it.

i'd put this into a bit of context. in an mma situation, the consideration of unintentional injury may be valid - i'd reckon it depends on the rules of the competition? (can't claim to be very familiar with mma competitions). in a self-defense situation, why would you worry about injuring the fingers of somebody who attacked you, unless you are using unjustifiable force? (in other words, breaking a guy's fingers because he pushed you on the shoulder or in the chest would probably not be considered justifiable force in many US courts.)

allow me to take another perspective: in a self-defense situation, your techniques should have the capacity to inflict intentional injury, if the situation warrants it. you escalate to meet the level of force aimed at you. if the attacker gets hurt, well, he asked for it, that's the way it goes, provided that you've used justifiable force given the threat you faced.

my experience has been that most hapkido people train for self-defense rather than for a rules-governed environment. hence its abundance of nasty techniques. fellow hapkidoists, any comments?

thanks, howard

 

[iron_ox]

Hello Howard,

Really very well said, training to a controlled and measured response is what Hapkido is all about; the worse the threat, the worse the response from Hapkido -

My most common response in a certain situation is: "Officer, he just fell down, twice." LOL

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[hedgehogey]

i'd put this into a bit of context. in an mma situation, the consideration of unintentional injury may be valid - i'd reckon it depends on the rules of the competition? (can't claim to be very familiar with mma competitions). in a self-defense situation, why would you worry about injuring the fingers of somebody who attacked you, unless you are using unjustifiable force? (in other words, breaking a guy's fingers because he pushed you on the shoulder or in the chest would probably not be considered justifiable force in many US courts.)

allow me to take another perspective: in a self-defense situation, your techniques should have the capacity to inflict intentional injury, if the situation warrants it. you escalate to meet the level of force aimed at you. if the attacker gets hurt, well, he asked for it, that's the way it goes, provided that you've used justifiable force given the threat you faced.

my experience has been that most hapkido people train for self-defense rather than for a rules-governed environment. hence its abundance of nasty techniques. fellow hapkidoists, any comments?

thanks, howard

You're missing the point. What i'm saying is that finger locks are not debilitating.

Many times a match will be played through where a fighter has a broken finger and he WON'T NOTICE IT. He'll keep fighting!

Many times wrestlers have gotten one or more fingers broken, tape their fingers up and keep wrestling!

It happened once while grappling with my mom. My mother is a small, frail woman, yet she didn't notice her big toe had been broken until after we were done!

 

[howard]

You're missing the point. What i'm saying is that finger locks are not debilitating.

as with most techniques, this is not an absolute. finger locks can be debilitating, especially on an average person. it depends on the recipient. in real situations (bar doors, etc.), i've seen them bring people to their knees long enough to permit another controlling technique (or strike) to be applied.

Many times a match will be played through where a fighter has a broken finger and he WON'T NOTICE IT. He'll keep fighting!

Many times wrestlers have gotten one or more fingers broken, tape their fingers up and keep wrestling![/QUOTE]
what about hand fractures? have you ever seen a boxing match where a fighter broke his hand? i've seen plenty, and i can't recall a single one where the fighter was able to "suck it up and go" until the end of the fight. apparently there's simply too much pain involved. in most of these situations the fighter either tries to continue one-handed (usually losing the fight, of course) or throws in the towel.

It happened once while grappling with my mom. My mother is a small, frail woman, yet she didn't notice her big toe had been broken until after we were done![/QUOTE]

 

[glad2bhere]

This seems to be the cusp upon which we constantly find ourselves rocking back and forth. On the one hand we want to have our training be as realistic as possible, yet on the other hand most of us need to get up and go to work the next day. There is also the matter of age. By this I mean that the body naturally becomes less resiliant as one gets older such that injuries when they occur don't heal back the same way as when one is youthful. I suppose this is why you don't see a lot of boxers over the age of 40, yes? There is also the matter that injuries incurred when one is young have a nasty habit of coming back to nag us in later years. As I write this I think of the number of folks who have come to my classes and had to qualify their participation due to injuries sustained in HS Football or Wrestling. I have been very lucky in my Hapkido training to have sustained relatively few actual injuries, though this latest one to my Hamstring has been the most pesky.

As far as "working through" an injury, I have mixed feelings. I understand that in an actual fight the victory can go to the person who keeps getting up, and I have a lot of respect for people with that sort of tenacity. However, I wonder at the wisdom of actually training in this fashion. From what I have been able to find, the life expectancy at the turn of the 19th century was about 50. Turn of this century we are up to 76. Centuries before it may have been as low as 30. My point is that if a person wants to train in a "go for broke" manner to raise the probability of winning a fight (in the rare chance a person will ever be in a fight) is it worth it to incurr an injury, say in ones' 20-s that they will have to deal with for the next 40 or 50 years? Thoughts? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[SmellyMonkey]

This seems to be the cusp upon which we constantly find ourselves rocking back and forth. On the one hand we want to have our training be as realistic as possible, yet on the other hand most of us need to get up and go to work the next day. There is also the matter of age. By this I mean that the body naturally becomes less resiliant as one gets older such that injuries when they occur don't heal back the same way as when one is youthful. I suppose this is why you don't see a lot of boxers over the age of 40, yes? There is also the matter that injuries incurred when one is young have a nasty habit of coming back to nag us in later years. As I write this I think of the number of folks who have come to my classes and had to qualify their participation due to injuries sustained in HS Football or Wrestling. I have been very lucky in my Hapkido training to have sustained relatively few actual injuries, though this latest one to my Hamstring has been the most pesky.

As far as "working through" an injury, I have mixed feelings. I understand that in an actual fight the victory can go to the person who keeps getting up, and I have a lot of respect for people with that sort of tenacity. However, I wonder at the wisdom of actually training in this fashion.
Best Wishes,

Bruce

I forgot about the whole age thing. I am only 26 years old, yet already troubled with a neck injury from a head crank that was too hard, as well as shoulders that are easy to disclocate. The neck injury has bugged me for over 6 months. Never thought that I may have to live with that injury for the rest of my life! Yikes.

I do believe a student of the martial arts has to practice some sort of realisitic fighting. There is something about going against a determined opponent that can't be simulated another way. It is easy for the martial artist to believe their fighting skills are better then they actually are, and it takes a few sparring sessions to show them how umbelieveable difficult it is to win in combat. I remember the first time my sparring buddy got a great head shot on me, how SHOCKED I was. It was hard for me to continue sparring after that, because I was no longer confident. I needed to get used to the fact that I may get hit when fighting, no matter how good I believe my defense to be (at my beginning level. ;-) )

If anything, the few sparring sessions have taught me how much I DON'T want to get in a real fight. I know it is common for new martial artists to learn a few skills and be overly confident in their abilities....and perhaps a bit more willing to fight in real life to see if the training works. I was that way. But not any longer! It isn't fun to get hit with headgear on! To get hit without headgear? No way!

You know what we need? A robot training partner. One that pulls all its punches, but can take everything you can dish out. ;-)

Jeremy

 

[glad2bhere]

Well. I hope your are wrong about the neck thing. Spinal, knee and shoulder injuries seem to be the worst for hanging on especially the lower back. Hope yours gets better. I had a student put some extra zeal into a nasty little wrist throw. My wrist was fine but I can feel a bit of something as I raise my arm. The rotators fine but there might have been a mild separation of the clavical.

BTW: About that robot: We DO have such a thing--- its called a teacher. I am a strong advocate of getting out on the floor and TAKING breakfalls for students. Yeah, I know---- most schools its the teacher that does all the throwing and the students are the ones that fall down. The benefits are that one gets to experience first-hand what the student is doing, and secondly its a goad for staying in shape. All of my teaching is participatory just for this reason, though, admittedly, sometimes I need to remember to pace myself, ya know? :asian:

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[SmellyMonkey]

BTW: About that robot: We DO have such a thing--- its called a teacher. I am a strong advocate of getting out on the floor and TAKING breakfalls for students. Yeah, I know---- most schools its the teacher that does all the throwing and the students are the ones that fall down. The benefits are that one gets to experience first-hand what the student is doing, and secondly its a goad for staying in shape. All of my teaching is participatory just for this reason, though, admittedly, sometimes I need to remember to pace myself, ya know? :asian:

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Kudos to you for letting your students throw you around! That isn't something I am used to. I have even more respect for you than I already have from reading your other comments in the foreum.

I still think the robot idea is a good one. I want to know how much force it actually takes to dislocate the knee, ankle, shoulder, elbow, wrist, fingers, as well as the cervical joints. Most of my human partners don't let me go that far!

I've told my wife we should go to one of the many bums in our neighborhood and give them a few bottles of booze if they'll let my wife and I practice on them. For some reason my wife doesn't like that idea...go figure.

Jeremy

 

[kwanjang]

have you ever seen a boxing match where a fighter broke his hand? i've seen plenty, and i can't recall a single one where the fighter was able to "suck it up and go" until the end of the fight. apparently there's simply too much pain involved.

[/QUOTE]

I watched a brutal fight with Arturo Gatti (of Ward v/s Gatti fame) where Gatti broke his hand on the hip of his opponent and continued to win the fight mostly one handed. Mind you, Gatti is in a class of his own when it comes to sucking up pain, and he usually looks as though he has gone through a meat grinder after his fights.

 

[glad2bhere]

Thats a new one for me. I can't even begin to imagine how one could break their hand on another persons' hip, I mean without doing serious damage to the other person. We're talking a SERIOUS "hip pointer", here. I have also wondered at the prevalence of eye sight issues resulting from repeated jarring of the head per detached retinas, broken blood vessels, and corneal abuse. Has anyone done any digging around about these? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[SmellyMonkey]

I watched a brutal fight with Arturo Gatti (of Ward v/s Gatti fame) where Gatti broke his hand on the hip of his opponent and continued to win the fight mostly one handed. Mind you, Gatti is in a class of his own when it comes to sucking up pain, and he usually looks as though he has gone through a meat grinder after his fights.

You know, this reminds me about how punches to the face often end up with a broken fist in a self-defense situation. I read on the defend university website that you should punch the soft parts of your attacker, and palm-heel strike or hammerfist the hard parts.

That makes perfect sense...yet in my school we practice punching to the face every day.

Does anyone teach open hand strikes to face, punches to body in their hapkido schools?

 

[SmellyMonkey]

Here is the article on Defend University.

http://www.defendu.com/hand_break.htm

 

[howard]

Does anyone teach open hand strikes to face, punches to body in their hapkido schools?

yes, we teach a number of strikes besides the western boxing closed-fist strike to all targets. in fact, we don't train in using the closed-fist strike much at all, although we train in defending against it a lot.

in self defense training we use sudo strikes, palm heels, hammerfists, one-knuckle strikes (second knuckle on the middle finger), backfists and backslips, c strikes to the throat, ridgehand strikes to vulnerable areas, and on and on... but as i say, very rarely do we train to use the western boxing style strike.

some practitioners of other arts seem to have the idea that us hapkido guys only know wrist locks. i think that in a real fight, you'll need a loosening-up strike to create the opening for any locking technique, so i train that way. imagine trying to catch a punch and throw a wrist lock on the attacker immediately - pretty low chance of success.