Shinobi Teikiatsu
Green Belt
To think, my one little post sparked this whole thing. I'm going to have to ask though, hif this "professor" doesn't answer emails from non-students, how did he get students?
On Reality Based Self Defense
- Thread starter Joab
- Start date
Deaf Smith
Master of Arts
My feeling is RBSD schools have their place. They do not emphasize correct technique like a martial arts school would. Nor do they push for having a large number of techniques to choose from.
But, since they have alot more contact, expect you to mix it up, teach situational awareness, and have instruction on how to act and speak before the fist fly, then it has some very good points.
Most martial arts schools do not sit down with the students and show them how to act on the street and be streetwise. How to detect when you are in a bad situation and how to keep your wits about you.
I've been in FOF and will soon be in another FOF class (with electric knives and simulation guns.) I like the ability to test what I've learned and see if I can keep on top of the situation BEFORE the fist fly as well as during and after.
A lot of the martial arts problems are McDojos, that is watered down martial arts. There is no reality in such schools. And that is why when they say alot of black belts get mopped up on the street is pretty much true. Great kicks and swift hands don't matter much if you are blindsided cause you didn't keep your situational awareness. And it’s even worse when your kicks aren’t great nor your hands swift. And a lot of black belts I’ve seen are in that category.
Deaf
But, since they have alot more contact, expect you to mix it up, teach situational awareness, and have instruction on how to act and speak before the fist fly, then it has some very good points.
Most martial arts schools do not sit down with the students and show them how to act on the street and be streetwise. How to detect when you are in a bad situation and how to keep your wits about you.
I've been in FOF and will soon be in another FOF class (with electric knives and simulation guns.) I like the ability to test what I've learned and see if I can keep on top of the situation BEFORE the fist fly as well as during and after.
A lot of the martial arts problems are McDojos, that is watered down martial arts. There is no reality in such schools. And that is why when they say alot of black belts get mopped up on the street is pretty much true. Great kicks and swift hands don't matter much if you are blindsided cause you didn't keep your situational awareness. And it’s even worse when your kicks aren’t great nor your hands swift. And a lot of black belts I’ve seen are in that category.
Deaf
I have no first hand knowledge of any RBSD schools/teachers, other than what I've read online or in books/mags, or heard from others, but if you'd be so kind as to clarify the above statement for me. Reading this, I take it as they would say to someone learning how to punch, "This is what the punch looks like, go ahead and do it" vs. what a MA school would say, ie: "This is how the punch looks. Make sure that you're hand is in this position....etc."
Deaf Smith
Master of Arts
MJS,
Most martial arts are more detail orientated on how things are done. We both know a punch can have the fist closed in certain ways to be more effective and safer. We both know the wrist has to be strong and rigid least one breaks their wrist. We both know not to punch with the smaller bones in the hand least they break.
Not all that is explained in RBSD schools I've been to. And then there are the ways to do a punch. Lunging, skipping, (like JDK), reverse punch. Wither you draw the arm back or not, wither you throw your shoulder on through or use a weight shift to add power, wither you twist your wrist just as you strike, or if the hand is vertical or horizontal....
That kind of detail is missed alot in a RBSD school. That is part of why there is an 'art' in martial arts.
Deaf
Most martial arts are more detail orientated on how things are done. We both know a punch can have the fist closed in certain ways to be more effective and safer. We both know the wrist has to be strong and rigid least one breaks their wrist. We both know not to punch with the smaller bones in the hand least they break.
Not all that is explained in RBSD schools I've been to. And then there are the ways to do a punch. Lunging, skipping, (like JDK), reverse punch. Wither you draw the arm back or not, wither you throw your shoulder on through or use a weight shift to add power, wither you twist your wrist just as you strike, or if the hand is vertical or horizontal....
That kind of detail is missed alot in a RBSD school. That is part of why there is an 'art' in martial arts.
Deaf
sgtmac_46
Senior Master
Football would probably be of more use than some TMA's.......as many real fights have more in common with football than what i've seen in some dojos.....i.e. bodies slamming together in a violent and tumultuous manner.
Well, like I said, my only experience with them is what I said in my post. If what you're saying is true, then IMHO, that is setting the student up for failure. It reminds me of the cardio kickboxing classes I used to see. You'd have a bunch of people, many who have never set foot in a school or thrown a punch or kick, hitting and kicking bags, looking like total crap.
Then again, I wonder if there're any RBSD schools that actually do take the time to make sure the correct method is being used to avoid injury.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Hi MJS,
I teach and train in a traditional system, and have attended a number of RBSD classes/workshops from different teachers, as have my fellow instructors, so I have a bit of experience in the differences between each. And Deaf Smith is quite right in his description of most RBSD systems/classes etc, in that the "technique" side is not emphasised. As I said in muy first post on this thread, it is often assumed that the majority of students at these classes are already at least somewhat experienced martial artists, so there is no need to go over how to punch. It is assumed that each student will often hve a method in place that works for them already.
The reason that this assumption is made is that RBSD systems are marketed towards the martial art community, not the general public, so the people to hear about them are far more likely to be experienced. The other reason is that they are targeting people who feel they are lacking something (usually to do with their confidence in handling a real assault) from their existing training. So, no, they don't cover such ground as "this is how you punch", as it is simply taking time away from the more essential aspects of the system being taught. And remember, these systems are training approaches more than anything else, so different arts should be able to adapt the drills to their own methods of moving quite easily.
If you walk into an RBSD class with no experience, then you may be in trouble. But, then, it's not designed for that. It would be similar to learning stunt driving, and having the instructor explain to you which is the accelerator, and which is the brake.
That said, I have encountered a few schools that take th time to teach proper striking their own way, but that is for the (very rare) long term student. These systems are not designed for long-term study, as opposed to TMA systems. And the majority of those "more complete" RBSD systems will still get ripped apart from a technical level by a TMA... by the RBSD guy will be better prepared for the chaos and confusion of violence.
Hope this helps clear things up a bit.
I teach and train in a traditional system, and have attended a number of RBSD classes/workshops from different teachers, as have my fellow instructors, so I have a bit of experience in the differences between each. And Deaf Smith is quite right in his description of most RBSD systems/classes etc, in that the "technique" side is not emphasised. As I said in muy first post on this thread, it is often assumed that the majority of students at these classes are already at least somewhat experienced martial artists, so there is no need to go over how to punch. It is assumed that each student will often hve a method in place that works for them already.
The reason that this assumption is made is that RBSD systems are marketed towards the martial art community, not the general public, so the people to hear about them are far more likely to be experienced. The other reason is that they are targeting people who feel they are lacking something (usually to do with their confidence in handling a real assault) from their existing training. So, no, they don't cover such ground as "this is how you punch", as it is simply taking time away from the more essential aspects of the system being taught. And remember, these systems are training approaches more than anything else, so different arts should be able to adapt the drills to their own methods of moving quite easily.
If you walk into an RBSD class with no experience, then you may be in trouble. But, then, it's not designed for that. It would be similar to learning stunt driving, and having the instructor explain to you which is the accelerator, and which is the brake.
That said, I have encountered a few schools that take th time to teach proper striking their own way, but that is for the (very rare) long term student. These systems are not designed for long-term study, as opposed to TMA systems. And the majority of those "more complete" RBSD systems will still get ripped apart from a technical level by a TMA... by the RBSD guy will be better prepared for the chaos and confusion of violence.
Hope this helps clear things up a bit.
I was surprised by Professor's Steiner's response, especially writing he wrote me back and explained what American Combato is because I was a former student, if , to be honest, briefly, only a few months. I can understand to a degree why he wouldn't want to be even indirectly in a forum like this (he hates debate for one thing) but not giving a definition to a non student, it puzzles me. His explanation was truly impressive, unfortunately I can't cut and paste it, as he didn't give me permission to do so. I can say I got a lot out of it even though I was taught by him for a short period of time. I believe he has a good system, Black Belt magazine believes he has a good system (it was ranked in the top ten of RBSD systems in the world one year, and featured second, right after Krav Maga) a lot of police agencies believe he has a good system, but it's only taught in Seattle and Phoenix unfortunately. I won't be writing a lot more about it in the future, as he doesn't seem to particularly care for this kind of forum.
There were no hidden techniques explained in this definition, it was very philosophical really, and he lists his curriculum in minute detail on his website and writes about it in detail in his online newsletter "Sword & Pen" available for free on his website. And that's about all I will ever write about his system.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Hi Joab,
I never said it wasn't a good system (quite the opposite, I believe), just that if we are attempting to find the defining difference between RBSD and "mainstream" martial systems, then this is not what would be defined as an RBSD system. it simply has too many hallmarks of the more mainstream systems, and little to no aspects of an RBSD one.
The idea of it being, as you put it, "very philosophical" with the curriculum written "in minute detail" all point toward a mainstream-type set-up. Now, I'm going to say this one last time, highlighted for emphasis: This is not a bad thing! The only thing that could make it a bad thing would be if you were after an RBSD system itself, and if you found yourself enjoying what was taught in this class, then I would say that is not what you were after.
Now, to get to the heart of the matter of this thread, I may remind you (and those reading right now) that you started this thread. And you started it with a question: What is the difference? Well, you've been answered by myself, and others here, based on our understanding and levels of experience (in my case, you are dealing with over 20 years of martial arts experience, and a few years more research before that. In addition to that, I am experienced in a number of RBSD systems, so I feel that my answers can be taken with a degree of weight), and you now seem to be asking for us to define a previous system you studied as an RBSD, although it certainly doesn't seem to be one? Would that be correct?
So my question would be, did you not like the answers you were given, or did they not match your beliefs? It seems that you are more concerned with believing that you have some training in a Reality Based Self Defence system than in actually knowing what the difference is... and I say that because if you were more concerned in knowing the difference, then the categorisation of your former instructors art wouldn't matter much. In the end, whether something is an RBSD or a TMA means very little. Basically, they are simply different approaches with different training methodologies and different emphasises, and you will gravitate towards one or the other. There is no better or worse, just better or worse suited to an individual.
I never said it wasn't a good system (quite the opposite, I believe), just that if we are attempting to find the defining difference between RBSD and "mainstream" martial systems, then this is not what would be defined as an RBSD system. it simply has too many hallmarks of the more mainstream systems, and little to no aspects of an RBSD one.
The idea of it being, as you put it, "very philosophical" with the curriculum written "in minute detail" all point toward a mainstream-type set-up. Now, I'm going to say this one last time, highlighted for emphasis: This is not a bad thing! The only thing that could make it a bad thing would be if you were after an RBSD system itself, and if you found yourself enjoying what was taught in this class, then I would say that is not what you were after.
Now, to get to the heart of the matter of this thread, I may remind you (and those reading right now) that you started this thread. And you started it with a question: What is the difference? Well, you've been answered by myself, and others here, based on our understanding and levels of experience (in my case, you are dealing with over 20 years of martial arts experience, and a few years more research before that. In addition to that, I am experienced in a number of RBSD systems, so I feel that my answers can be taken with a degree of weight), and you now seem to be asking for us to define a previous system you studied as an RBSD, although it certainly doesn't seem to be one? Would that be correct?
So my question would be, did you not like the answers you were given, or did they not match your beliefs? It seems that you are more concerned with believing that you have some training in a Reality Based Self Defence system than in actually knowing what the difference is... and I say that because if you were more concerned in knowing the difference, then the categorisation of your former instructors art wouldn't matter much. In the end, whether something is an RBSD or a TMA means very little. Basically, they are simply different approaches with different training methodologies and different emphasises, and you will gravitate towards one or the other. There is no better or worse, just better or worse suited to an individual.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Oh, and having a quick look through your post history gives quite an interesting picture. You seem to have visited this topic a number of times, including thread titles such as: "What Systems Train For Realistic Self Defence?", "All MA Systems Equally Good For Self Defence?", "Are All artial Art Systems Good?", and others. You also have threads like "Contact or No Contact", in which you point out that your Combato system has no contact allowed... now, if nothing else, that should definitively show this as not an RBSD system.
So, after constantly going back to this area, as well as a number of threads specifically based around a fearful mindset when dealing with violence "SO You're In Some Urban Hellhole...", "How Much Advantage Is A Knife?", and "What Kind Of Fighter Do You Fear Most?", I would ask that you join a school, find an instructor you trust and believe in, and gain the experience that should help you assuage these fears, or at least have the tools to explore them.
While I always enjoy a good debate, we are simply going over old ground here again and again. Should you have new questions, we will be more than happy to assist you, but for these same old ones, I recommend you simply look to your own history (don't even need to do a search, most of the answers will be already in threads you have started) and check the answers there. And if they are not enough, it may be that you are still simply lacking the experience to understand them. And that is simple enough to remedy.
So, after constantly going back to this area, as well as a number of threads specifically based around a fearful mindset when dealing with violence "SO You're In Some Urban Hellhole...", "How Much Advantage Is A Knife?", and "What Kind Of Fighter Do You Fear Most?", I would ask that you join a school, find an instructor you trust and believe in, and gain the experience that should help you assuage these fears, or at least have the tools to explore them.
While I always enjoy a good debate, we are simply going over old ground here again and again. Should you have new questions, we will be more than happy to assist you, but for these same old ones, I recommend you simply look to your own history (don't even need to do a search, most of the answers will be already in threads you have started) and check the answers there. And if they are not enough, it may be that you are still simply lacking the experience to understand them. And that is simple enough to remedy.
I don't know anything about what Steiner teaches other than what I've read here and on his website (which has a lot of words, but not a lot of information) -- but I want to address a couple points.
The whole "dislikes debate" is worrisome. I'm not suggesting that he has to answer to every loon who writes, but at the same time, reasonable questions in a reasonable format and at an appropriate time should be fair game. (Nor am I suggesting that he doesn't have the last say in the art he created!) Instead, we're hearing from you that "he doesn't like internet forums" and "dislikes debate" and only answered you because you used to be a student. That's just kind of cultish, and makes me a little nervous.
Black Belt magazine ratings don't carry a whole lot of weight; it's kind of interesting to note how the advertisements seem to be linked to the amount of coverage in many issues... I've never seen anything about how they establish those rankings, either.
Police training... That's a whole different boat. Lots of folks train cops, in various ways. Some legit, some not. Often, agencies or academies will bring in martial artists for various seminars, or units will bring someone in -- especially if someone in the unit or at the academy trains there. That doesn't necessarily carry a lot of weight as proof; he doesn't list the units that have his manuals, or where he's taught, for example.
I'd really like to know what went into his development of American Combato/Jen-To-Dao. His website just doesn't give much info... and most of the information I've found on him comes from bodybuilding, not martial arts?
Like I said -- I don't know much about what he teaches. It might be incredible. But what little I'm seeing here doesn't exactly build that impression.
There's a martial arts school up the road that teaches Combato and I wondered if it was the same thing, I couldn't find out but after Googling I found this. It says this guy invented Combato which was taught to Canadian and American police and military, is this the same thing as we've been discussing?
http://www.fighttimes.com/magazine/magazine.asp?article=330
http://www.fighttimes.com/magazine/magazine.asp?article=330
BLACK LION
Black Belt
It all boils down to integrity... and having an assertive purpose. Its about adaptability and change and a positive, endless flow. Both can accomplish that.
I like to experience and understand both sides for what they are and I have done it for many years. I have experienced mediocrity and inefficiency from both sides and neither one more than the other. I have also experienced superiority and efficiency in both sides.
Both are more similar than they are different and realizing that brings a new outlook....
There is an endless well of knowledge out there to be had... there is not enough time to get hung up on useless and senseless detail... absorb and mantain whats useful and discard whats useless... adapt to change and flow with it...
What I see missing from both sides is integrity and adaptability.... I had a rough time growing up and I walked out of many schools becuase they werent teaching what I needed... I also felt cheap if I ever accepted training that I knew was useless...so I did not. Its up to the people instructing to make sure thier bases are covered but the responsibility is mutual as the ones seeking instruction should have thier bases coverd as well....
Those that I train are taught from the ground up... experience or not.
I do not beleive in mediocrity. I dont tolerate it and I train them not to tolerate it either. If somethings wrong or off...fix it or compensate... improvise... dont make excuses or excuse poor execution...
a punch is a punch... this is true with many modern combatives... yet its incompetent in its underemphasizing its true nature and use... Not all though... This can be true with some traditional martial arts in thier overemphasizing style and technique behind it. A punch is so much more...yet so much less...
I believe and building the structure of the body and its base first....then establishing an axis or center point of rotation then rotating and projecting with your mass.... then we learn to form our extemeties into striking surfaces without forsaking or forgetting its principle foundation...
A punch becomes a battering ram... a kick becomes a sledgehammer....
Here you are free to adapt and improvise but only under the basic principles that govern your mass and thiers...
Many instructors and students alike forget about this once the get acclimated and experienced... thier liberty extends beyond the boundaries of the original principle is was foundes and built upon... watered down with freedom.
There is a negative on both sides and yet there is a positive....inherently and essentially similar or alike or akin... but diluted by freedom and liberty of expression.... It all boils down to integrity and the discipline to retain the basic principles that governs all matter... no matter the prowess or perception if these principles do not govern your movements then you are just "punching" and "kicking" and existing in mediocrity.
I like to experience and understand both sides for what they are and I have done it for many years. I have experienced mediocrity and inefficiency from both sides and neither one more than the other. I have also experienced superiority and efficiency in both sides.
Both are more similar than they are different and realizing that brings a new outlook....
There is an endless well of knowledge out there to be had... there is not enough time to get hung up on useless and senseless detail... absorb and mantain whats useful and discard whats useless... adapt to change and flow with it...
What I see missing from both sides is integrity and adaptability.... I had a rough time growing up and I walked out of many schools becuase they werent teaching what I needed... I also felt cheap if I ever accepted training that I knew was useless...so I did not. Its up to the people instructing to make sure thier bases are covered but the responsibility is mutual as the ones seeking instruction should have thier bases coverd as well....
Those that I train are taught from the ground up... experience or not.
I do not beleive in mediocrity. I dont tolerate it and I train them not to tolerate it either. If somethings wrong or off...fix it or compensate... improvise... dont make excuses or excuse poor execution...
a punch is a punch... this is true with many modern combatives... yet its incompetent in its underemphasizing its true nature and use... Not all though... This can be true with some traditional martial arts in thier overemphasizing style and technique behind it. A punch is so much more...yet so much less...
I believe and building the structure of the body and its base first....then establishing an axis or center point of rotation then rotating and projecting with your mass.... then we learn to form our extemeties into striking surfaces without forsaking or forgetting its principle foundation...
A punch becomes a battering ram... a kick becomes a sledgehammer....
Here you are free to adapt and improvise but only under the basic principles that govern your mass and thiers...
Many instructors and students alike forget about this once the get acclimated and experienced... thier liberty extends beyond the boundaries of the original principle is was foundes and built upon... watered down with freedom.
There is a negative on both sides and yet there is a positive....inherently and essentially similar or alike or akin... but diluted by freedom and liberty of expression.... It all boils down to integrity and the discipline to retain the basic principles that governs all matter... no matter the prowess or perception if these principles do not govern your movements then you are just "punching" and "kicking" and existing in mediocrity.
BLACK LION
Black Belt
"Black Belt magazine believes he has a good system (it was ranked in the top ten of RBSD systems in the world one year, and featured second, right after Krav Maga)"
Excuse me in advance if what I am about to say pisses anyone off but it is my experience. I do read BB magazine and hold it to a certain level of accountability and integrity. I shadowed many of these "RBSD" camps for a few years and few of them held up. One of these outfits was that of Jim Wagner. He was "top ranked instructor of the year and top ranked for new innovative blah blah"... I read his credentials and he has trained with over 500 special ops, counter terrorist and police forces all over the world... Just an and overwhelmingly impresive resume... I then found he had a certification program for fairly cheap and could be accomplished in a weekend.... to good to be true...so I opted for the dvds he had to make sure I had done enough recon to decide.
Appalling... Why??? watch the videos and come to your own conclusion... Mine may be different but I know the difference between poo and chocolate.
With a disgusted laugh all I could think of is that he would get me killed.
Lesson learned, I no longer rely on ratings, resumes and accolades to calibrate whats effective and whats not.... Its a shame that it seems to be more about who you are than what you are really made of and translating that into motion.... Allot of resumes and refferals look outstanding...with endless experience and resources... but in motion I see mediocrity. To my standards that is unacceptable.... and In understand that most diamonds in my face are fake and I must dig through ugly rocks and coal to get the real thing... most often there is no resume or refferal to speak of.
Excuse me in advance if what I am about to say pisses anyone off but it is my experience. I do read BB magazine and hold it to a certain level of accountability and integrity. I shadowed many of these "RBSD" camps for a few years and few of them held up. One of these outfits was that of Jim Wagner. He was "top ranked instructor of the year and top ranked for new innovative blah blah"... I read his credentials and he has trained with over 500 special ops, counter terrorist and police forces all over the world... Just an and overwhelmingly impresive resume... I then found he had a certification program for fairly cheap and could be accomplished in a weekend.... to good to be true...so I opted for the dvds he had to make sure I had done enough recon to decide.
Appalling... Why??? watch the videos and come to your own conclusion... Mine may be different but I know the difference between poo and chocolate.
With a disgusted laugh all I could think of is that he would get me killed.
Lesson learned, I no longer rely on ratings, resumes and accolades to calibrate whats effective and whats not.... Its a shame that it seems to be more about who you are than what you are really made of and translating that into motion.... Allot of resumes and refferals look outstanding...with endless experience and resources... but in motion I see mediocrity. To my standards that is unacceptable.... and In understand that most diamonds in my face are fake and I must dig through ugly rocks and coal to get the real thing... most often there is no resume or refferal to speak of.
So my question would be, did you not like the answers you were given, or did they not match your beliefs? It seems that you are more concerned with believing that you have some training in a Reality Based Self Defence system than in actually knowing what the difference is... and I say that because if you were more concerned in knowing the difference, then the categorisation of your former instructors art wouldn't matter much. In the end, whether something is an RBSD or a TMA means very little. Basically, they are simply different approaches with different training methodologies and different emphasises, and you will gravitate towards one or the other. There is no better or worse, just better or worse suited to an individual.[/quote]
To be honest, I never even heard of RBSD before or during the two times I went to Professor's Steiner's school. Some time after taking American Combato I read an article in Black Belt magazine which featured what they considered the top ten RBSD systems in the world, American Combato was featured second, right after Krav Maga, although the top ten weren't necessarily listed from one to ten in the article. (one of the very few times I ever bought the magazine) and later read American Combato referred to as a RBSD system in at least three different threads in various martial arts forums after I had taken it.
I will go out out on a limb a bit and reveal Professor Steiner does believe his system is a RBSD system and a whole lot more than that. I really wish he would let me put the email on this thread, it was quite brilliant, beautifully written, carefully thought out, really a shame really...wish I could reveal the specifics...oh well.
Call it what you will, it is a system that works for me. I've been practicing the basics of it on my own for over ten years (The basics can get you very far if you get them down really well with this system.) At any rate, I have enjoyed this thread, learned a lot, appreciate your input. My belief is whatever works for you is the best system for you, be it RBSD or traditional. I have studied four different systems, and some things worked for me in all of them. It comes down to what works for you, makes sense to me.
I think their were very good posts defining what RBSD is. I do believe there are well thought out systems within the RBSD camp, American Combato, SCARS, Guided Chaos, Krav Maga, MCMAP, and quite a few others I'm sure.
To answer your question, I think the definitions given regarding RBSD had some good points, but I don't agree that they arn't systems. I hope that answers your question, I'm not sure it does.
To be honest, I never even heard of RBSD before or during the two times I went to Professor's Steiner's school. Some time after taking American Combato I read an article in Black Belt magazine which featured what they considered the top ten RBSD systems in the world, American Combato was featured second, right after Krav Maga, although the top ten weren't necessarily listed from one to ten in the article. (one of the very few times I ever bought the magazine) and later read American Combato referred to as a RBSD system in at least three different threads in various martial arts forums after I had taken it.
I will go out out on a limb a bit and reveal Professor Steiner does believe his system is a RBSD system and a whole lot more than that. I really wish he would let me put the email on this thread, it was quite brilliant, beautifully written, carefully thought out, really a shame really...wish I could reveal the specifics...oh well.
Call it what you will, it is a system that works for me. I've been practicing the basics of it on my own for over ten years (The basics can get you very far if you get them down really well with this system.) At any rate, I have enjoyed this thread, learned a lot, appreciate your input. My belief is whatever works for you is the best system for you, be it RBSD or traditional. I have studied four different systems, and some things worked for me in all of them. It comes down to what works for you, makes sense to me.
I think their were very good posts defining what RBSD is. I do believe there are well thought out systems within the RBSD camp, American Combato, SCARS, Guided Chaos, Krav Maga, MCMAP, and quite a few others I'm sure.
To answer your question, I think the definitions given regarding RBSD had some good points, but I don't agree that they arn't systems. I hope that answers your question, I'm not sure it does.
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Deaf Smith
Master of Arts
You are right on Chris. The classes expect you to have some ability before you get there. And it's focused on the whole street continuum, from jaw-jaw to war-war.
Almost all martial arts don't do much on the jaw-jaw part, nor how to use any environmental weapons or just plain dirty, low-down, sneaky things. We get in the dojo and bow to each other before we spar. No one tries to distract us or confuse us or get's their buddy to blindside us. No one in a dojo pulls a knife or gun instead of taking a 'stance', or smiles with a rock in their hidden fist. AND THEIR AIN'T NO WEIGHT OR HIGHT DIVISIONS!
We need to learn how to talk on the street. No, not jive talk, but you will find that even gang-bangers alot of times just need you to acknowledge their presence with a nod for them to leave you alone. Or how to de-escalate the situation with talk (Verbal Judo is a VERY good book guys!) And how to make them keep their distance when talking.
There are lots of things like that to learn. Things every growing boy and girl should know but mama never told them.
Deaf
Actually Chris is not right, there are RBSD systems that teach you everything you need to know and you can enter them knowing nothing at all and they will teach you all you need. Chris my have it half right, there may be RBSD that is like he writes about, it's certainly not true of many a RBSD system. And Chris likes to engage in amateuer psychology, determinig through a few posts that I'm motivated by fear without having ever met me. I can see why Professor Steiner refuses to be involved in forums like this even indirectly. Martialtalk.com is better than most, but really practicing your art is a much better use of time. But Chris is right about one thing, I've devoted far too much time to this kind of topic, I'll leave it for awhile, their getting a little repetitious. Chris is probably an alright bloke, but he does tend to generalize a little too much.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
What I said was that most RBSD systems do not have the technical side of things, and I stand by that. There are some schools that will take you from nothing to fighter (one very near me is run by a man by the name of Glenn Zwiers, a former instructor for our Military... but we're not getting into all that that entails). but that is not the regular RBSD format. Most RBSD groups teach specialised workshops, with regular classes held for only a few people (most simply will not handle the constant pressure testing and high-stress training). And actually, the type of class you're describing is the less-common in my experience. And, if you'll forgive me for saying so, it seems that my experience outweighs yours by quite a bit here (after all, you are the one asking the questions...).
As for the amateur psychology, well, by my count, about 23 of the threads you have started (out of 75 or so) would come under the category I have defined, that is a bit more than "a few posts", and is more than enough to give a pretty good understanding of where you are coming from, yes?
And, yes, I am generalising a fair bit here, but that is only following on from your thread (What is RBSD? Is it really better than TMA?), which is very general itself. I have, however, endeavoured to provide real and definate examples wherever possible in order to minimise generalisation. If I didn't provide enough, let me know.
All in all, though, Joab, I wish you nothing but the best in your training. But remember, you asked us what RBSD was, and when your (previous?) school didn't quite match up, you seem to have gotten a little upset by that. Again, from all accounts (both from yourself and the website you directed us to), American Combato is not what would be defined as an RBSD system, however, I have no problem with it being a modern martial system well-suited to dealing with modern threats. But no contact, focus on techniques over principles, not mention of pressure testing, no adrenaline training, all point towards not being an RBSD. That's all.
As for the amateur psychology, well, by my count, about 23 of the threads you have started (out of 75 or so) would come under the category I have defined, that is a bit more than "a few posts", and is more than enough to give a pretty good understanding of where you are coming from, yes?
And, yes, I am generalising a fair bit here, but that is only following on from your thread (What is RBSD? Is it really better than TMA?), which is very general itself. I have, however, endeavoured to provide real and definate examples wherever possible in order to minimise generalisation. If I didn't provide enough, let me know.
All in all, though, Joab, I wish you nothing but the best in your training. But remember, you asked us what RBSD was, and when your (previous?) school didn't quite match up, you seem to have gotten a little upset by that. Again, from all accounts (both from yourself and the website you directed us to), American Combato is not what would be defined as an RBSD system, however, I have no problem with it being a modern martial system well-suited to dealing with modern threats. But no contact, focus on techniques over principles, not mention of pressure testing, no adrenaline training, all point towards not being an RBSD. That's all.
Good points and yes, this makes sense. Now that I think about it, a few months ago, I was watching a dvd set put out by Rich Dimitri. Good stuff, but the first thing that came to mind was that if a beginner to the arts, were to watch this, they'd be lost, due to the fact that he wasn't teaching techniques, per se, but instead, concepts and ideas, assuming the person watching, already had a MA background.
I just figured that there was at least a RBSD school that would take in a newbie, rather than someone with a solid MA background already.
