On Reality Based Self Defense

[Brian R. VanCise]

Change equals strife. So I say embrace that change and enjoy it! Now how does that pertain to the way you train? Well I am not saying run out and learn an RBSD system if you do not want to but instead look at how they do thing's as a chance to be more educated yourself in the Martial Sciences. Just like if you practice a RBSD system or MMA, etc. look at how TMA's work and the principles and concepts that they use. Who knows you may learn, grow and change!

In the end we all need to be flexible!

 

[sgtmac_46]

There aren't many around -- but if you see someone who really did learn the combative side of tai chi, not fanciful explanations of the movements or the new-age "health benefits only" versions... It'll work. It's just not a quickly learned skill; it ranks, in my opinion, with aikido in that respect. Both can be very effective -- even amazing sometimes! -- in the hands of a properly trained person, or either can be a new age crap ball in other hands.

Yes, but the point is that 99% of the Tai Chi taught is useless for the people implementing in actual combat.......that there is an esoteric root system that select individuals have deciphered and harnassed as a super-deadly fighting style doesn't really alter the fact that Tai Chi, AS TAUGHT, isn't......that is my point.......not that hundreds of years ago what became Tai Chi wasn't some super-martial art.

 

[pete]

Gotta disagree here... 100% of the Tai Chi that I DO, that MY TEACHER DOES, and what MY STUDENTS LEARN is both USEFUL & based in REALITY!

And, a lot of what i see passing as Reality Based systems is nothing but Fantasy. Guess it depends on what is REAL in your existence...

pete.

 

[Flying Crane]

One of the major drawbacks I've seen in this regard is that I might be in a fight tonight, that's a far cry from the years that some of these more esoteric arts might take to develop one to a combat ready state.

There is nothing wrong with dedicating ones self to the study and practice of one of them, but if your goal is self defense then there are more direct paths to that goal. Nor do the two have to be mutually exclusive but I'd say that it's obvious that there can be defensive tactics that are effective and taught in less time than the arts mentioned above.

yes, but when taught and trained properly, traditional arts also have many things that are quite useful RIGHT NOW. While it may take several to many years to learn the complete system and reach a level of genuine mastery, there is plenty that works and is useful after only a short period of training. It's just that the longer you work on it, it gets even better. Even more potential is to be realized down the road, for something that works very well in the short term as well. Traditional arts do have a lot to offer for a direct and short path for self defense.

 

[Flying Crane]

Yes, but the point is that 99% of the Tai Chi taught is useless for the people implementing in actual combat.......that there is an esoteric root system that select individuals have deciphered and harnassed as a super-deadly fighting style doesn't really alter the fact that Tai Chi, AS TAUGHT, isn't......that is my point.......not that hundreds of years ago what became Tai Chi wasn't some super-martial art.

It's really not something from hundreds of years ago. It's really right now. There are currently many people who have the skills and knowledge to use taiji very effectively as a fighting art. This is not something that has been lost to history.

Nobody disputes that most people doing taiji today are doing it as a form of exercise, and are decidedly NOT doing it as a fighting art. That is very clear to everyone. But just because most people do not practice the art to it's intended potential, does not mean that the art itself is lacking. It just means that most of the people who do it are lacking in their training. And for most of these people, it is a deliberate choice, to only focus on the exercise and health aspects of it. This is something often sought out be older folks who are looking for a gentle form of exercise. It's deliberate on their part, and they are people who have no interest in the fighting aspects.

But the fighting aspects do live on, and are in the hands of some very capable people. Unfortunately, these people do not dwell on every street corner and are not accessible to everybody. But that's just life.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Gotta disagree here... 100% of the Tai Chi that I DO, that MY TEACHER DOES, and what MY STUDENTS LEARN is both USEFUL & based in REALITY!

And, a lot of what i see passing as Reality Based systems is nothing but Fantasy. Guess it depends on what is REAL in your existence...

pete.

Guess it does........the devil is in the details.




I didn't intend to fire up the Tai Chi practioners.....so my apologies to Tai Chi and it's practioners......the last thing I want is some little lady practicing her forms kicking my *** the next time i'm in the park.............:btg:

 

[pete]

no offense taken, we've considered the source.

good luck coping your fear of parks, ladies, and other realities...

pete.

 

[Joab]

Thanks again fro all your illuminating posts. RBSD systems have worked well for me and my goals, but they arn't for everybody. Having worked in security for 15 years including work as a bouncer, close quarters, no nonsense, simple, practical martial arts is what I was looking for and what I found. They have kept me alive over the years, and for that I am very grateful to the fine teachers and students who have helped me along the way. Again, it all depends upon what your looking for. I got something out of Tae-Kwon-Do too, more of a TMA than a RBSD, but all of it has helped me on my journey, I haven't regretted any time spent learning any of it, it's all been beneficial.

 

[Shinobi Teikiatsu]

I think it's a fool who believes that a certain martial art can't help you in the street. Truthfully speaking, playing football could probably do you at least a little bit of good if you're ever in a skirmish (if you're a pretty fast runner or a good tackler, plus punting your attacker across the street will PROBABLY allow you to walk away)

I think I'm going to have to agree with the earlier posts that RBSD is more of a way of thinking about your training, rather than a system itself.

 

[Flying Crane]

I didn't intend to fire up the Tai Chi practioners.....so my apologies to Tai Chi and it's practioners......the last thing I want is some little lady practicing her forms kicking my *** the next time i'm in the park.............:btg:

In my case, I'm not riled up by it, and neither am I surprised by the attitude that many people have toward the art. But I did see an opportunity to interject and give a different perspective. If you've never experienced quality taiji, then it's not surprising that you would doubt its viability.

 

[Joab]

I think it's a fool who believes that a certain martial art can't help you in the street. Truthfully speaking, playing football could probably do you at least a little bit of good if you're ever in a skirmish (if you're a pretty fast runner or a good tackler, plus punting your attacker across the street will PROBABLY allow you to walk away)

Joab: I played football for two years, it might help you tackle your opponent, perhaps run away and evade, forget about the punt, but it won't help out a whole lot in a self defense scenario.

I think I'm going to have to agree with the earlier posts that RBSD is more of a way of thinking about your training, rather than a system itself.

This is rather ridiculous. Go to www.americancombato.com click on "cirriculum" and you will find for every belt level very much a system that was painstakingly put together by Professor Bradley J. Steiner, Shiian, or originator of the system. It might be true that RBSD itself is not a system, but there certainly are systems that are RBSD.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Joab,

I would not actually define your Combato system as an RBSD system, in that it teaches a technical curriculuum (like all other martial art systems), it features a belt ranking systems (like many other martial art systems), and features Asian titles and names (like many modern eclectic martial art systems, which is honestly what this is).

RBSD, as stated, is more a way of approaching your training to prepare for the realities of a real violent encounter (NOTE: Not by giving you techniques to deal with the attacks, although there is often one or two unique movements to each system, but rather by having very confrontational drills and exercises designed to generate the effects of an assault). This does not mean that your system, or indeed, any system, modern, ancient, or undecided is not equipped to handle a real assault, just that the definition of RBSD does not apply here.

My school, for instance, is not RBSD. I have, however, attended a number of RBSD workshops and seminars (and, as I'm writing this, I recieved an e-mail invite to another in a few months), and we integrate aspects of their training philosophy into our schools... just not completely. After all, our students come to us for a Martial Art experience, not an RBSD one. And that's an important thing to remember.

So, if I may, your comment about the claim being "ridiculous" is a little out itself. I did follow your suggestion and visit your schools site, including checking out the "cirriculum" section (just a friendly word of advice, don't know if you are in a position to affect this or not, but a little proof-reading wouldn't go astray. The use of terms such as "Shinan", which I have never encountered, as opposed to "Shihan", which I have, throws up big question marks, not to mention the odd naming of the system itself), and this simply showed all the hallmarks of a modern, eclectic martial art system, not an RBSD.

 

[Joab]

Hi Joab,

I would not actually define your Combato system as an RBSD system, in that it teaches a technical curriculuum (like all other martial art systems), it features a belt ranking systems (like many other martial art systems), and features Asian titles and names (like many modern eclectic martial art systems, which is honestly what this is).

RBSD, as stated, is more a way of approaching your training to prepare for the realities of a real violent encounter (NOTE: Not by giving you techniques to deal with the attacks, although there is often one or two unique movements to each system, but rather by having very confrontational drills and exercises designed to generate the effects of an assault). This does not mean that your system, or indeed, any system, modern, ancient, or undecided is not equipped to handle a real assault, just that the definition of RBSD does not apply here.

My school, for instance, is not RBSD. I have, however, attended a number of RBSD workshops and seminars (and, as I'm writing this, I recieved an e-mail invite to another in a few months), and we integrate aspects of their training philosophy into our schools... just not completely. After all, our students come to us for a Martial Art experience, not an RBSD one. And that's an important thing to remember.

So, if I may, your comment about the claim being "ridiculous" is a little out itself. I did follow your suggestion and visit your schools site, including checking out the "cirriculum" section (just a friendly word of advice, don't know if you are in a position to affect this or not, but a little proof-reading wouldn't go astray. The use of terms such as "Shinan", which I have never encountered, as opposed to "Shihan", which I have, throws up big question marks, not to mention the odd naming of the system itself), and this simply showed all the hallmarks of a modern, eclectic martial art system, not an RBSD.

I'll write and ask the founder (Can't seem to spell "shihan" right it seems) and ask him. I have used the term RBSD in emails to Professor Steiner when writing about his system, American Combato, and he never corrected me, and I beleive he would. So I will ask and get back to you-Joab

 

[Chris Parker]

I'll write and ask the founder (Can't seem to spell "shihan" right it seems) and ask him. I have used the term RBSD in emails to Professor Steiner when writing about his system, American Combato, and he never corrected me, and I beleive he would. So I will ask and get back to you-Joab

Thanks, Joab.

I was mainly refering to the spelling of things like 'cirriculm' (instead of curriculum here) but the other terms could probably be looked at. And, for what it's worth, the error is on the website, not just your post.

As for your instructor not correcting you, that could be anything from him not feeling the distinction is big enough to warrant a correction, through y to him not understanding the difference well enough himself. In anycase, you are by your own claim still a beginner in your system, but you should realise that, although your system may be designed with modern assaults in mind, it is not what would be recognised as an RBSD system.

 

[Guardian]

Allot of good response here and definitely gives the mind something to think on.

RBSDs are just another system out there to grab a hold of those who don't want to the TMAs or the MMAs and yet still want to be able to defend yourselfs if needed in my view. They are good for those who want it quickly for specific purposes or situations that the need is here and now.

 

[Joab]

Hi Joab,

I would not actually define your Combato system as an RBSD system, in that it teaches a technical curriculuum (like all other martial art systems), it features a belt ranking systems (like many other martial art systems), and features Asian titles and names (like many modern eclectic martial art systems, which is honestly what this is).

Well Chris, I emailed Professor Steiner and he emailed me back, and the answer was quite interesting. Unfortunately, Professor Steiner did not give me permission when I asked to post his response in this forum because he doesn't want to be involved in this type of forum even indirectly, and wrote he only answered my question because I was a student of his.

You could write to him and ask him yourself at www.americancombato.com, but since you were never a student of his I'm not sure he would respond. Suffice to say there's a lot more to it than either one of us wrote, a whole lot more, without giving any specifics. You can learn a lot about it by reading his free online newsletter Sword & Pen.

 

[Tez3]

Hi Joab,

I would not actually define your Combato system as an RBSD system, in that it teaches a technical curriculuum (like all other martial art systems), it features a belt ranking systems (like many other martial art systems), and features Asian titles and names (like many modern eclectic martial art systems, which is honestly what this is).

Well Chris, I emailed Professor Steiner and he emailed me back, and the answer was quite interesting. Unfortunately, Professor Steiner did not give me permission when I asked to post his response in this forum because he doesn't want to be involved in this type of forum even indirectly, and wrote he only answered my question because I was a student of his.

You could write to him and ask him yourself at www.americancombato.com, but since you were never a student of his I'm not sure he would respond. Suffice to say there's a lot more to it than either one of us wrote, a whole lot more, without giving any specifics. You can learn a lot about it by reading his free online newsletter Sword & Pen.

Am I the only one hearing alarm bells ringing here?

A couple of questions though, why are the instructors called professors and why do they seem to think MMA is about self defence so that they need to write how it's not and of course your system is better.

For 'reality' self defence look at Geoff Thompson, Karl Tanswell, Kevin O'Hagen and Iain Abernethy, now thats self defence lol!
http://www.geoffthompson.com/
http://www.kevinohagan.com/Webpages/Pages/Systems_Conflict.htm

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Joab,

No, I don't really have a reason to ask your instructor about his system. My point was simply that RBSD is defined by it's training methodologies (adrenaline-based drills, high levels of pressure testing, principles over techniques/curricilulums) and a focus on the pre-fight and surviving/handling the initial assault. From every piece of evidence given by yourself and the website you sited, that is not what you train in. That is not to denigrate yourself, your art, your instructors, or anythig else, it is more akin to pointing out that my friends VW is not a BMW, despite both being German cars. People will prefer one over the other, and there are benefits and drawbacks to both.

So while I appreciate the invite, the only issue woul be if you wanted to be training in what is defined as an RBDS system, and are not. And that would be an issue for yourself alone. As I said, this is in no way an indication that your system does not deal with realistic responces to realistic attacks, just that it is not an RBSD, rather it is a modern eclectic martial system.

For the record, I personally prefer the "martial system" methodology over the RBSD approach, as the martial system approach has much greater longevity for the student. You can spend years, if not decades getting an understanding of a martial system, while RBSD developed out of Military, Security, and LEO Training systems, where only a very limited amount of time could be afforded to give to the students/cadets/grunts/whatever - usually about 8 to 12 hours. Yep, hours. As a result, a very fast teaching method was required, and that gave us DefTac (Defensive Tactics) Systems, and RBSD is just a civilian use of the same teaching and training methodologies. But, of course, no RBSD system or DefTac system can compete with the depth of a martial system.

Tez, no you are not the only one with alarm bells, I had quite a few go off when looking over the site... but I figured that was not the debate we needed to have here at the moment. In essence, Joab's Instructors system is what it is, it may be great, it may be nonsense, but in the end, there is a fair degree of honesty over it's modern creation, so I'm not too worried. It's just not somewhere I would visit, that's all.

As for the intructors being refered to as "Professor", well, that is hardly new. I have seen it in a number of Filipino Systems, as well as being used by people such as Prof. Wally Jay (Small Circle Jujutsu, another modern system). But I do agree with questioning the idea of MMA being about self defence. To me, that simply shows a lack of understanding about what MMA actually is, and what it is designed for. And the habit of knocking something else down in order to make yourself look big, from a psychological point of view, just shows a lack of confidence in yourself (or your system, in this case).

I like your list of RBSD guys, most in particular Geoff Thompson. I would also add people such as Deane Lawler, Jim Wagner (to a degree, at least) Tony Blauer (with his SPEAR principle), and Richard Dmitri (Senshido, famous for what is possibly their only actual "technique", the Shredder... although anyone familiar with Classical Japanese systems will recognise the action as a re-interpretation of what is known in Ninjutsu circles as a Shako Ken). But to look at all these individuals, it becomes apparent that the main similarity is in the approach to preparing someone for a violent assault, not giving a lot of techniques, and their biggest difference is often only in the details (one may prefer a certain type of drill, others have a different preference, a slightly different cover taught in one system over another), but that is about all.

 

[Tez3]

Good post Chris, tbh though the alarm bells were ringing more for the post than the website, saying you could write to the founder but as you weren't a student he probably wouldn't answer? also saying there's more to it but then not going into 'it'. It sounds too 'mystic' and 'secret methods' type of thing for me. I like things straight up with no hidden techniques only for initiates.

 

[Chris Parker]

As do I, Tez, which is why I always endeavour to answer any question directed towards me here (or anywhere else, for that matter). I've seen a fair bit of "He told me, so I know, but I can't tell you because I'm forbidden... but it's true, he told me!" before, so I've learnt to just leave it at that. You honestly don't get anywhere pushing that kind of issue.