Tradition vs. Reality!

[Littledragon]

For thousands of years martial arts has been known to teach one to defend themself from any situation. A martial artist is highly skilled in the art of combat but most importantly the way of life. As thousands of martial art styles are known today, many traditional arts such as Karate, Aikido, Kung-Fu and Tae Kyon have still survived. When it comes to self defense we must really ask our self what art works and what art doesn't.

Ever since Bruce Lee bursted on the martial art scene he has profoundly brought up the question are some martial arts restricted in so much traditional values, beliefs, and most importantly technique that they are not effective in a real life street self defense situation? The question is will these thousands of years old martial arts survive today in a tough world we live in. Will the traditional teachings of Karate or Hwarng Do or other traditional martial art enable a martial artist to sucesfully defend himself in a street situation when a fury of punches, swings, and weapons are coming your way?

How do you feel as far as the traditional martial arts playing a role in street self defense where you can use that art sucessfully?
Tradition vs. Reality is the question. Which arts are too traditional to be used in a moder day street brawl/self defense situation?

Tarek Hussein (16)

 

[MichiganTKD]

I will say this:
When my Instructor was practicing Tae Kwon Do in Korea years ago, he had to contend with gang members carrying knifes, guns, and what have you. So it's not like the Tae Kwon Do that he practiced is effectual. He's still here, so he must have done something right.

 

[Littledragon]

I will say this:
When my Instructor was practicing Tae Kwon Do in Korea years ago, he had to contend with gang members carrying knifes, guns, and what have you. So it's not like the Tae Kwon Do that he practiced is effectual. He's still here, so he must have done something right.

Wow very cool. In my opinion this is what I think of the subject in general, the style helps pave the way in order to be a good martial artist but it is not the art it is the man.

 

[loki09789]

It all depends on the type of tradition and goals of the system.

If the traditional part of the system serves no other purpose but cultural preservation (non-english names for techniques, customs and courtesies/uniforms....) those will not necessarily contribute to how effective they are in reality. They are good practices to honor the cultural root/origin and possibly as a bridge to give students cultural exposure though.

If the traditional part is hard training, good fitness, scholarly research/ understanding (as in Kenpo and some FMA's) and solid technical and tactical development it will definitely add to a students ability to fight in reality. I qualify my comment w/ "add to" because some of the traditional schools, if taught in a strictly traditional way, will not reasonably prepare students for firearms and other attack styles that take place now, but not so much or at all in the times of the development of the tradition.

In reality the fighting arts that people consider 'traditional' are really fairly modern in origin but were/are based on components of the whole training of a fighter (weapons, horsemanship, tactics, leadership, engineering, cooking...). That said, I think that trad arts have much to offer in teaching discipline, dedication and technical mastery and some tactical skill, but here is more that is needed for defensive prep/reality than just what we currently call martial arts training.

 

[Littledragon]

It all depends on the type of tradition and goals of the system.

If the traditional part of the system serves no other purpose but cultural preservation (non-english names for techniques, customs and courtesies/uniforms....) those will not necessarily contribute to how effective they are in reality. They are good practices to honor the cultural root/origin and possibly as a bridge to give students cultural exposure though.

If the traditional part is hard training, good fitness, scholarly research/ understanding (as in Kenpo and some FMA's) and solid technical and tactical development it will definitely add to a students ability to fight in reality. I qualify my comment w/ "add to" because some of the traditional schools, if taught in a strictly traditional way, will not reasonably prepare students for firearms and other attack styles that take place now, but not so much or at all in the times of the development of the tradition.

In reality the fighting arts that people consider 'traditional' are really fairly modern in origin but were/are based on components of the whole training of a fighter (weapons, horsemanship, tactics, leadership, engineering, cooking...). That said, I think that trad arts have much to offer in teaching discipline, dedication and technical mastery and some tactical skill, but here is more that is needed for defensive prep/reality than just what we currently call martial arts training.

I absolutly agree with you very well said. I think what you said is very true: If the traditional part of the system serves no other purpose but cultural preservation (non-english names for techniques, customs and courtesies/uniforms....) those will not necessarily contribute to how effective they are in reality. They are good practices to honor the cultural root/origin and possibly as a bridge to give students cultural exposure though.

I also would like to emphasize that when finding an art for self defense purposes never forget the philosophy of what it teaches you beacuse the Yin side of martial art is the peace full side and is the one that can prevent a fight before it happens and that is the true performance of Martial Art.

TAREK

 

[loki09789]

I also would like to emphasize that when finding an art for self defense purposes never forget the philosophy of what it teaches you beacuse the Yin side of martial art is the peace full side and is the one that can prevent a fight before it happens and that is the true performance of Martial Art.

TAREK

Here is where I tend to differ from the Eastern/Japanese/Chinese based perceptions of martial arts. I agree with the principle implied in your statement but I consider 'martial arts' other things as well like firearms training, defensive driving courses, awareness training..... which also promote self preservation/defense through responsibility, accountability and cultural/societal/legal awareness.

Much like the various physical systems and arts there are various philosophical ways of viewing the grand scheme of martial arts. As a citizen in the USA, I tend to acknowledge and respect the philosophies (from any source) that promote self improvement through introspection and efforts like MA training as a large scale goal or life long learning goal.

The actual 'reality' preparation for me is applying traditional martial arts and other skills in alignment with the use of force/deadly force laws to ensure that I am working within the cultural/societal/legal limits I live in and not imposing 15th century values in a 21st century world about acceptable use of force. This promotes the "yin" aspects through education and training on how to be a "peace" person/citizen by staying in accordance with the law, even when you are using violence to defend yourself.

Some of the older school trad arts can teach technique patterns and responses that will put you in jail no matter how justified the action.

Philosophy is a general framework that each individual can use to organize the details, but most eastern philosophie are not about those specifics - except for confucionism - boy is that a 'by the numbers' 'do'.

 

[Hanzo04]

as far as reality based martilarts go, it's probably a tie with Krav Maga and JKD . all you do is take what is useful and discard the rest. you also learn weapon usage and weapon disarmment. Krav Maga is used as the Israelies main fighting defense in the millitary. it's like TKD and Korea nobody does it like the home country.

on traditional martial arts none is more obselite than karate (except for kenpo). the techniques are too stiff with too much emphasis on power and not enough speed. You can't substitute power for speed! to many of these coward thugs know how to box these days. some traditional MA that still work are American Kenpo, for it's vital targets emphasis and it's scientific approach to combat. not to mention it's very speedy attacks. Wing chun, because it's close combat fighting system is nearly unmatched and it's long line of martial champions Won Shun Leung, william Cheung, and of course bruce lee. and the last one is Ninjutsu or budo taijutsu. i believe this very traditional art is still effective to this day. thanks to people like Stephen hayes and jack hoban the martial has survived the 80's and is still thriving. they are another school of martial arts that claim defense from all possible positions and situations. i think this is rightfully so. the old practisioners of this deadly art were ninjas and the techniques were proven in combat for thousands of years. they too empasize defense against firearms not to mention the usage of there very traditional weapons.

i would have mentioned TKD since it is my art, but it's hand techniques are few and far between. thanks

 

[kenpo tiger]

American Kenpo also teaches defenses against the deadly force weapons, like guns. However, one of the initial points made was to be able to walk away from the fight. That is what we are also taught in kenpo. Judicious use of one's weapons.

As to tkd being effective: Jumping spinning kicks are useless in certain situations. As was stated, it's the person wielding the weapon (the art), not the weapon (the art) itself. One has to know when to use pieces of his art (his arsenal, if you will) to best effect. That's why cross-training is important. Lack of hand strikes in tkd cries out for cross-training (another thing which made me switch from tkd to kenpo.)

Krav Maga and JKD simply cut to the chase - no fancy stuff, just deadly.:asian: KT

 

[Littledragon]

I love Krav Maga and Jeet Kune Do I think they are very grea martial arts predominantlly for the use of self-defense. However what they lack is the "ART" of Martial Art, the spirituality and philoshopy and I think every great martial artist must have that aspect. Jeet Kune Do is one of my favorite martial arts because it was created by a genius in the martial arts and covers everything from Muay Thai kicks and Savate kicks to grappling to wrestling boxing etc. I think Jeet Kune Do is a martial art that can be used in any type of street situation and never restricted due to traditional barriers.

Tarek

 

[hedgehogey]

Krav Maga is not "reality based" in that most schools don't train with anything resembling hard contact. It's the same kata and techniques on a nonresisting opponent you already know, except instead of reverse punches it's now street lethal eye gouges.
Jeet Kune Do varies. Some practice it as "imitate bruce lee do", others (www.straightblastgym.com) realize the true import of lee's writings.

 

[Littledragon]

Krav Maga is not "reality based" in that most schools don't train with anything resembling hard contact. It's the same kata and techniques on a nonresisting opponent you already know, except instead of reverse punches it's now street lethal eye gouges.
Jeet Kune Do varies. Some practice it as "imitate bruce lee do", others (www.straightblastgym.com) realize the true import of lee's writings.

Krav Maga is not "reality based"
I thought it was? It is the official Israeli Military hand to hand combat self defense system so you'd think that it is based on reality since they are teaching it to the national army rite? I might be wrong but I though Krav Maga was a reality based martial art and focused on pure self defense, defending your self from a gun, knives, and other hostile and self-defense situations?

Tarek

 

[ppko]

If traditional Martial Arts are taught the right way they are very usefull in street combat, but this also depends on the person.


PPKO

 

[Littledragon]

If traditional Martial Arts are taught the right way they are very usefull in street combat, but this also depends on the person.


PPKO

What do mean by the right way? The right way meaning following all their traditional routines and classical patterns??

I do agree that it all depends on the person, the art is a factor but it is the person the man who determines the outcome.

Tarek

 

[Ippon Ken]

as far as reality based martilarts go, it's probably a tie with Krav Maga and JKD . all you do is take what is useful and discard the rest. you also learn weapon usage and weapon disarmment. Krav Maga is used as the Israelies main fighting defense in the millitary. it's like TKD and Korea nobody does it like the home country.

Huh? The former is a marketing ploy, not a real MA. It IS NOT taught by the Israeli Defense Force. Try Hagah Na. JKD is Bruce Lee's fighting methods and no one else's. He wanted all MAs to come up with their OWN way. Plus, what about JKD makes it so special? You can only progress so far with its strategies, and when you're older its principles can't work without athleticism and strength. Bruce had plenty of athleticism with little knowledge and experience with any art, even Wing Chun. Does being athletic and arrogant qualify someone to be a master of fighting? Nope. That takes tenure and tried and true methods IN REAL LIFE, not the ring.

on traditional martial arts none is more obselite than karate (except for kenpo). the techniques are too stiff with too much emphasis on power and not enough speed. You can't substitute power for speed! to many of these coward thugs know how to box these days. some traditional MA that still work are American Kenpo, for it's vital targets emphasis and it's scientific approach to combat. not to mention it's very speedy attacks. Wing chun, because it's close combat fighting system is nearly unmatched and it's long line of martial champions Won Shun Leung, william Cheung, and of course bruce lee. and the last one is Ninjutsu or budo taijutsu. i believe this very traditional art is still effective to this day. thanks to people like Stephen hayes and jack hoban the martial has survived the 80's and is still thriving. they are another school of martial arts that claim defense from all possible positions and situations. i think this is rightfully so. the old practisioners of this deadly art were ninjas and the techniques were proven in combat for thousands of years. they too empasize defense against firearms not to mention the usage of there very traditional weapons.

i would have mentioned TKD since it is my art, but it's hand techniques are few and far between. thanks

It's O-B-S-O-L-E-T-E. Like your views and comments. They gots ways to look up words on the net so's ya' don't have to write like a 9 year old.

First off, Ninpo? Are you kidding? Taijutsu? It's not real, genius. Research stuff and don't assume. Just because someone tells you something doesn't mean it's true. Just because the majority of idiots believe that their hope religions, hope knowledge and hope philosophies are the one and only don't make it so. Maybe it is, but do YOU really know? Or are you jumping on the commercial, mass appeal bandwagon? I think you is. Don't be a follower. Lead ya' damn self, martial "artist".

I guess all my years of Shorin Ryu training won't help me in the streets. But wait they have, many times, especially when I lived in SE Asia. I guess the Marines implementing Okinawan karate for their h2h training and even adopting belt ranks, means you and Somchat Siddachai, Bob Goosen and Tito Ortiz know better than the USMC, what is good for real life-or-death fighting and what ain't. Oh well, I guess since you are the leading authority on what works based on TV and ring sport, I should listen to you and do Krap Maggot or Take One's Doe. Hell naw!!! What karate ryu/ryuha, out of the hundreds, are you speaking of anyway? TSD or TKD? Listen to this quote from the late 1800s. Bushi Matsumura (founder of Shuri Te/Shorin, your style's progenitor) to his student Itosu Anko- "Yes, you have a very strong punch Itosu, but without SPEED you can't so much as touch me"! Shorin Ryu is a fast karate style and the practitioners are well renowned for their speed and punching ability. Remember Joe Lewis and Bill Wallace? Both were mid-level Shorin-ka at the best when they were INVENTING kickboxing, and they could punch and kick very well. They did Shorin Ryu for one-two years at best, and they were integral in formulating modern kickboxing. Imagine if they would have trained for a lifetime (or at least a decade). They might have included the grappling and groundfighting inherent in all Okinawan MAs, and thought more highly of the kata that teaches it. They would ahve learned weapons and added an entire new dimension to their training and ability.

BTW, don't comment on kata unless you've done a karate style that understands what those movements mean, and just because a style like GJJ/BJJ/CJJ doesn't do formal kata or drills (they do, but just don't know it) doesn't mean it isn't traditional. Regardless of what the Gracies or anyone associated with GJJ/BJJ/CJJ thinks they do a traditional art just like the traditional Okinawan and Chinese family styles that they profess to despise (for no reason other than to claim they are better). GJJ/BJJ meets ALL the criteria for a traditional art, even moreso than most Japanese and Korean "karate". Again, only speak on things you're sure of.

Do Vanderlei Silva and Maurice Smith know who started their art in America (and most of the world except Burma, Thailand and France)? Oh, hell yeah! Do they know that the FOUNDERS of their sport were Okinawan karate-ka with limited knowledge and skill? I doubt it, but it's true. Now kickboxing is thought of as the epitome of striking styles. Hahaha, every green belt Okinawan karate-ka should be a good kickboxer. It is modern karate's randori and the Okinawans didn't practice it any other way except full contact. Kickboxing is beginner karate.

Shorin Ryu is the original version of your precious diluted Shotokan with high kicks- aka: TKD. The same goes for Uechi Ryu and Kyokushinkai. Come to blows with those guys. Drop some dogs with a real kenpo-ka (Okinawan Kenpo not that fake American/Hawaiian/Chinese Kempo) or real Okinawan karate-ka. Allow grappling and get the surprise of your life when a TOMAs person waxes you. Oh, allow punching to the head. Tell me what you learn.

Wing Chun is a good SD art? Then why did Bruce decide it was stagnant and ineffectual. Why did he have a fight with some cat for 20 MINUTES with no clear-cut winner? His art and experience as a Hong Kong street ruffian meant squat against a skinny, weakling like Wong Jack Man. 'Cause like Robert Smith says, Wing Chun is a very minor and not-so-respected Southern style, that is nonexistent anywhere in China except Hong Kong, which btw is not a hotbed of good Chuan Fa! It's a limited style that doesn't address all ranges contrary to popular belief. At least what Bruce knew of it.

This jockin' and dissin' of arts you know nothing of is so prevalent on the web. I am part Filipino. I lived in the PI for a good part of my life and I can tell you that the fascination folks here in the states have for FMAs is weird. The Filipino's don't share it. First off, like many hispanics in America, it is seen as a Spanish-influenced art not an indigenous one like Silat. It is not a thing of pride, because it was heavily influenced by Spanish fencing. Even its common name, Escrima, is a Spanish word. They see it as a limited "art" at best.

The Filipino's train in arts that are fun and Olympic sporty like TKD and Judo or that are good for fighting, like Okinawan karate (especially Goju Ryu and Shorin Ryu), Kuntaw/Silat, Muay Thai, Boxing, Pilipino Kickboxing and recently BJJ. There, where it's perpetual martial law and the only folks with guns are crooks, soldiers and politicians, you best know something real if you're gonna waste your precious money and time. I don't remember ever seeing any fake American Kenpo taught there, Kraut Magnet, or whatever flavor of the month junk MAs you're talking about. It wouldn't last, because you get challenged all the time and the Filipinos know about real fighting. You better be able to squab', because you will have to protect your neck at least once in your life if you live there long enough. But you wouldn't know that, being a typical American who KNOWS it all based on living, breathing and eating as a soft 'kano! "If you hit me I'll sue you"!!! Hahaha!

BTW if I get into a fight on the street I'm assuming homey wants to kill me. Why else would someone be oblivious enough to assault a total stranger? I will beat his **** first and ask questions when he's done and I'm safe. This liability junk comes second. I need a life in order to be charged or sued. I'll live with the consequences. Thinking any other way about self preservation is a lose-lose situation. That's how you can tell if a person has ever fought for real or in the ring. They talk all this legalese, mumbo-jumbo, and then they wrap their hands and do bag work. Pitiful.

What I do and countless millions do, real karate (2% of karate), real MAs (maybe 3% of all arts), will never die. In fact all that padded floor and hand crap is gonna die quick-fast, just like the "arts" that claim you can learn to use it to defend yourself on the street against everything from one-on-one attackers to a .50 cal machine gun, in a month. Bullsh-T! Band aids fall off eventually, just like many of these MMAs and so-called modern arts will. The traditional styles have been around for centuries and will survive through the few who know the real stuff. Just like it's always been. Real traditional MAs isn't for the average sucker. It never should be. It's privileged info and familial traditions.

You want to be a physician, a master of the human body? Ya' can't go to chiroquacktric school. Ya' gots to go to an accredited med. school, whether D.O. or M.D. (in the USA). Before that you usually gots to get a B.S./B.A. in something. No short cuts for the real or good things in life. Unless you are lucky, but that's not a good indicator of lifelong knowledge and dedication to something. Same with MAs. Remember that the word "Art" denotes a refined endeavor and a refined person. Not some Johnny-Come-Lately hope shiyit or a ring/combat sport that allows you to beat yourself up more than anyone on the street ever will. That's a different mindset and intent.

Remember evolution doesn't mean change for changes sake or patch-hole combat sports equated to real MAs. Devolution applies in most modern circumstances when it comes to fighting. We are weaker and put kids in jail or expel them for defending themselves at school, but bomb the hell out of starving civilians, and call the "accidental" muder "collateral damage". Where's the logic or the fairness? What the hell do most Americans know about hand-to-hand fighting? <crickets>. Exactly. The bell rings and the dogs salivate.

There are real karate dojo out there and real good fighters teaching in them. But they are rare, like Bentley's and Rolls'. Go do your 30 second soundbite MAs. Too much ADHD in adults nowadays. Must be all the GD fad diets. So ring fighters can no doubt fight, but I would guess their chances on the street are about as good as anyone else's. Entropy rules then and overconfidence inherent in so-called ring warriors gives chaos that upper hand. I doubt the conceit built up from false victories instills the caution and fear needed to fuel you and keep you safe when it's life-or-limb. Now if you like to fight and want to fight for fake before you fight for real, just in case the WBA wants to sanction all muggings, rapes and ambushes, then please feel free to contribute to the ignorance. It ain't hurting those of us who understand true life. Go do journeyman crap forever. Then become a multi-millionaire living off the fear and ignorance of the majority. With all the litigation here, they'll never have to use it anyway, right? Just don't dismiss what you don't have a clue about or the real martial artists out there.

Combat sports equal in efficacy and having the same intent as a good TMA?It's ridiculous, like comparing a paralegal to lawyer.

Public Enemy said it best, "DON'T BELIEVE THE HYPE"!!!

If you wanna pander to bullies and know-it-alls I will not be diplomatic. I'll tell you the bare-bones truth.

Next!!!

P.S. Where do you train in BJJ hedge-hogey (do you)? I've trained with Ryron at Gracie Torrance. Met him through a friend of mine, Glenn F., who's been training privates there for years. Just wonderin'... Peace.

 

[ppko]

What do mean by the right way? The right way meaning following all their traditional routines and classical patterns??

I do agree that it all depends on the person, the art is a factor but it is the person the man who determines the outcome.

Tarek

If you know the true meaning behind kata, and understand pressure points and the way to activate them then you have a very effective art. You do not however need to know pressure points to be effective but it helps. All arts in the orient have pressure points within their system some people just don't realize it.
PPKO

 

[Littledragon]

If you know the true meaning behind kata, and understand pressure points and the way to activate them then you have a very effective art. You do not however need to know pressure points to be effective but it helps. All arts in the orient have pressure points within their system some people just don't realize it.
PPKO

Yes I totally agree with you. Kata is uniting body and spirit in one but kata is also the very first basis of self defense.

Tarek

 

[Cryozombie]

It's O-B-S-O-L-E-T-E. Like your views and comments. They gots ways to look up words on the net so's ya' don't have to write like a 9 year old.

First off, Ninpo? Are you kidding? Taijutsu? It's not real, genius.

Really?

Did you have a bad experiance at one, Or are you just pissing in the wind?

 

[Littledragon]

Really?

Did you have a bad experiance at one, Or are you just pissing in the wind?

Lets act like martial artists and try to keep the peace here.

Tarek

 

[Flatlander]

Lets act like martial artists and try to keep the peace here.

Tarek

Well, blowback's got to be expected when a new and inexperienced person barges in, starts flaming everyone, spouts off about his/her greatness, and generally insults everyone's intelligence.

I guess all my years of Shorin Ryu training won't help me in the streets.

Apparently they haven't taught you respect,decorum or good manners either.

Does being ... arrogant qualify someone to be a master of fighting? Nope.

Then what's your claim to fame?

This jockin' and dissin' of arts you know nothing of is so prevalent on the web.

And now you've come to educate us? With some of the same? Gee, thanks Master.

 

[Littledragon]

Well, blowback's got to be expected when a new and inexperienced person barges in, starts flaming everyone, spouts off about his/her greatness, and generally insults everyone's intelligence.


Apparently they haven't taught you respect,decorum or good manners either.


Then what's your claim to fame?


And now you've come to educate us? With some of the same? Gee, thanks Master.

Well, blowback's got to be expected when a new and inexperienced person barges in, starts flaming everyone, spouts off about his/her greatness, and generally insults everyone's intelligence. ~~~ Me??