Original Kwans

[Archtkd]

GM Bok Man Kim was very influential in helping to develop & propagate original TKD, especially in south east Asia. He rose to the all important military rank of Sgt-Major, which is the highest non-commissioned officer rank in the ROK Army, US Army as well, which the ROK Army is patterned after. Gen Choi sent for GM Kim & Woo Jae Lim when he was assigned to Malaysia as the 1st Korean Ambassador

And he is still teaching. http://www.integritymaa.com/kim.htm . I met him about two years ago and his speed with side, front snap roundhouse and hook kick was amazing.

 

[puunui]

No I mean students he was actually on the floor with, teaching, correcting & sharing with. No problem with GM Lee under that 1 category of criteria, but then you would be forced to go back to his teacher, Funakoshi Sensei!

No you wouldn't be forced to go back to anyone.

Yes this is most impressive & I have only heard good things about this man who I am finding is a wonderful martial artist. How does he measure up in the other categories of criteria that I offered that you do not accept?

I forget what the other criteria you used, but I know that GM Park would for many years run the World Chung Do Kwan Championships which were held all over the world. When it was held in Washington DC, GM LEE Won Kuk attended. GM Park has also wrote, cowrote or edited many Taekwondo books, including every edition of the Kukkiwon Textbook, GM LEE Won Kuk's book, as well as others in the korean language.

GM LEE Haeng Ung also has a super large following, with a larger tournament and has also published many books, created his own forms, etc.

Sensei Mas Oyama travelled the world as well, had his tournament, and wrote tons of books.

JKA Chief Instructor Nakayama Sensei, same thing.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Quote:Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
No I mean students he was actually on the floor with, teaching, correcting & sharing with. No problem with GM Lee under that 1 category of criteria, but then you would be forced to go back to his teacher, Funakoshi Sensei!

No you wouldn't be forced to go back to anyone.

Yes it one was to be fair minded, you would. You have wrote that Kukki TKD does not consider anyone person to be TKD's founder, as so many contributed to making their TaeSuDo the Kukki TKD that it is today. Therefore & since GM Lee left the formative years scene in 1959, after only 4-6 years of actual training, teaching & influence, you would be forced to go back to his teacher, as he was basically teaching what he learned in Japan to his students & that was not TaeSuDo or Kukki TKD.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I forget what the other criteria you used, but I know that GM Park would for many years run the World Chung Do Kwan Championships which were held all over the world. When it was held in Washington DC, GM LEE Won Kuk attended. GM Park has also wrote, cowrote or edited many Taekwondo books, including every edition of the Kukkiwon Textbook, GM LEE Won Kuk's book, as well as others in the korean language.

Yes you make a good case & I have the utmost respect for GM Park, thinking now that he may surpassed GM Hwang Kee for that 2nd place behind Gen Choi. But he would still fall short in the world championships & the world-wide standardization of the tournament's criteria for patterns. If you did foget, you can always scroll back in the thread to review it again. I am certain that no one can math that set of criteria, which was why I selected it.

GM LEE Haeng Ung also has a super large following, with a larger tournament and has also published many books, created his own forms, etc.
Sensei Mas Oyama travelled the world as well, had his tournament, and wrote tons of books.
JKA Chief Instructor Nakayama Sensei, same thing.

All great legends which I admire & I am not that well versed with the Japanese ones, but GM Lee did accomplish much of the criteria, but no where near a world-wide standard or global following.

 

[puunui]

Have you folks in the midst of the historical debates ever talked to Kim Bok-Man. He helped Choi create a number of the ITF forms. He's still (was until the last I heard from him early last year) teaching in New Jersey.

I saw him at a Taekwondo Hall of Fame gathering, I think it was last year. He walked up to me and asked me in Korean if I had seen GM KWON Jae Hwa. I told him in english that I hadn't seen him but if I do, I will tell him that he was looking for him.

 

[puunui]

Therefore & since GM Lee left the formative years scene in 1959, after only 4-6 years of actual training, teaching & influence

He left Korea in 1950, not 1959, but he did return to Korea in 1967, saw everyone's long wide stance and then gave a series of seminars on the short narrow stance which was incorporated into the present Kukkiwon poomsae.

I find it interesting that you set up all these things like who has the most students or who is the founder and then place General Choi in that spot, when in fact the pioneers don't really care about that sort of stuff and don't really think about it, to tell you the truth. If they did care, then they would have written themselves into the Kukkiwon Textbook with their names and accomplishments plastered all over the place. they really don't care.

I've thought about General Choi over the last several days more than I have thought about him over the last two or three years. All it does is give me a headache, trying to sift through all the lies and the false or insignificant claims. I can't help but think that he also gave the pioneers headaches when they thought about him as well.

His books are in their final print. They are selling off the last of the encyclopedia and I don't know if there will be more printed. In thirty or forty years, which seems like a long time but really isn't, only a few people will recognize his name. I think less Taekwondo practitioners know who he is today than when he was alive.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Quote:Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
Therefore & since GM Lee left the formative years scene in 1950, after only 4-6 years of actual training, teaching & influence

He left Korea in 1950, not 1959, but he did return to Korea in 1967, saw everyone's long wide stance and then gave a series of seminars on the short narrow stance which was incorporated into the present Kukkiwon poomsae.

Sorry Sir, a typo on my part, which I fixed. I did the math right, but put in a 9 by mistake.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I find it interesting that you set up all these things like who has the most students or who is the founder and then place General Choi in that spot, when in fact the pioneers don't really care about that sort of stuff and don't really think about it, to tell you the truth. If they did care, then they would have written themselves into the Kukkiwon Textbook with their names and accomplishments plastered all over the place. they really don't care.
I've thought about General Choi over the last several days more than I have thought about him over the last two or three years. All it does is give me a headache, trying to sift through all the lies and the false or insignificant claims. I can't help but think that he also gave the pioneers headaches when they thought about him as well.
His books are in their final print. They are selling off the last of the encyclopedia and I don't know if there will be more printed. In thirty or forty years, which seems like a long time but really isn't, only a few people will recognize his name. I think less Taekwondo practitioners know who he is today than when he was alive.

I am sorry that you seem to only have such a poor view of a Korean martial artist that did so much for so many around the world, even though he had little or nothing to do with your TKD, or Kukki TKD, which we all know was TaeSuDo.
Perhaps some of the Kukki TKD Pioneers did not want to publicly credit their teachers, the original kwan founders, as that would have made that dreaded connection to karate. AS GM Lee Chong Woo said, they had to do so for nationalist interests. I am glad that this is changing & we are hearing about the great contributions to Kukki TKD.
Gen Choi's books will not go out of print. His name will not fade from history, especially after his top secret intelligence file is released in the ROK & Korea is unified. In fact, just in 2008, there was another edition of the 15 volume Encyclopedia of TKD, a work that is unprecedented in the martial art world. This is done by the owner of TKD Times, GM Jung Woo Jin, who holds the rights to this work & always has. The Chang Hon Foundation has the rights to the other works & they in 2004 printed a new condensed book of the 15 volumes. Mrs Choi is working on consolidating his auto-biography, which the original is currently being sold in south Korea in 3 volumes in Korean. The 1st 2 volumes only have been translated into English. These books were not even allowed into south Korea during the dictatorships, so his name will not fade. In fact I am sure that the TKD Park will credit him. You even saw their Chairman Dr Lee referred to him as the founder of TKD at an event in the USA last year & made clear that the ITF was formed in Seoul before the WTF.

 

[puunui]

Perhaps some of the Kukki TKD Pioneers did not want to publicly credit their teachers, the original kwan founders, as that would have made that dreaded connection to karate. AS GM Lee Chong Woo said, they had to do so for nationalist interests.

The pioneers had no problems recognizing, respecting and acknowledging their teachers. And this is what the actual translation was that you are referring to above:

Q: Is Karate the only martial art that had an impact on Taekwondo in the process of its creation after Liberation? No other influences at all?

A: That is a candid statement. I am the one who wrote books bringing in various materials of all sorts, but now is the time to disclose the facts. All the masters who taught Karate got together and formulated basic Taekwondo forms, and I took a central role. It should not be a big issue now to disclose this fact, because we are at the top of the world.


Q: Do you assume that, when evaluated based on technical standards, Korean martial arts are behind Japanese martial arts?

A: At the present time, Taekwondo is ahead, since it has become a competitive sport. Japan was far ahead when Taekwondo was first created; it was inevitable, because Taekwondo is a modified version of Karate. At that time, Taek Kyun was the only Korean martial art, and it was taught as a health exercise by the Elder, Duk Ki Song. For this reason, movements were soft and were practiced for health management. In Taekwondo, in order to create strong power, you must initiate with relaxed movement. All punches must strike hard rather than push, in order to have power. For this, relaxation is required.

 

[bluewaveschool]

GM Lee Won Kuk wrote a book? In english or korean?

 

[puunui]

GM Lee Won Kuk wrote a book? In english or korean?

Korean, published in 1968.

 

[bluewaveschool]

Need to put 'learn to read Korean' on the new years to do list then

 

[miguksaram]

Need to put 'learn to read Korean' on the new years to do list then

Learning to read Korea is easy. Translating is what gets ya.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

The pioneers had no problems recognizing, respecting and acknowledging their teachers. And this is what the actual translation was that you are referring to above:

Q: Is Karate the only martial art that had an impact on Taekwondo in the process of its creation after Liberation? No other influences at all?

A: That is a candid statement. I am the one who wrote books bringing in various materials of all sorts, but now is the time to disclose the facts. All the masters who taught Karate got together and formulated basic Taekwondo forms, and I took a central role. It should not be a big issue now to disclose this fact, because we are at the top of the world.


Q: Do you assume that, when evaluated based on technical standards, Korean martial arts are behind Japanese martial arts?

A: At the present time, Taekwondo is ahead, since it has become a competitive sport. Japan was far ahead when Taekwondo was first created; it was inevitable, because Taekwondo is a modified version of Karate. At that time, Taek Kyun was the only Korean martial art, and it was taught as a health exercise by the Elder, Duk Ki Song. For this reason, movements were soft and were practiced for health management. In Taekwondo, in order to create strong power, you must initiate with relaxed movement. All punches must strike hard rather than push, in order to have power. For this, relaxation is required.

Sir I know very well that this is the translation & it is exactly what I am getting at. He says we no longer have to hide, but that is in 2002, 28 years after he came up with the lie!
So he clearly says their TKD is a sport that they made from their karate training. And now since TKD is so popular, they no longer have to lie that it came from karate. So yes, now they can start to credit their teachers, which has been my whole point. This simply was not possible decades ago! The truth is starting to come out.

 

[puunui]

Sir I know very well that this is the translation & it is exactly what I am getting at. He says we no longer have to hide, but that is in 2002, 28 years after he came up with the lie!

It's hard to tell from what we have, the edited version, but I think he is talking about what was written in the Kukkiwon Textbook, that he wrote that part. He also seems to be talking about the "masters" who created the Kukkiwon poomsae, which would be in the same time frame roughly. Again, we are hampered by the limitations of the interviewer and also what he chose to print.

As far as who came up with the "lie", I was looking in General Choi's 1965 book and it had some very interesting things written. It seems General Choi was the one who came up with the "lie", which shouldn't be all that surprising at this point. I'll try and post it in a separate thread.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

It's hard to tell from what we have, the edited version, but I think he is talking about what was written in the Kukkiwon Textbook, that he wrote that part. He also seems to be talking about the "masters" who created the Kukkiwon poomsae, which would be in the same time frame roughly. Again, we are hampered by the limitations of the interviewer and also what he chose to print.

As far as who came up with the "lie", I was looking in General Choi's 1965 book and it had some very interesting things written. It seems General Choi was the one who came up with the "lie", which shouldn't be all that surprising at this point. I'll try and post it in a separate thread.

No it is actually pretty clear from the reporters notes & questions that he was trying to find out why they said TKD was 2,000 years old, when there is scant evidence to support it. The reporter Yook says that newer books were coming out casting doubt over the 2,000 year old myth. Now I would say that this is what I have been talking about. The south Korea of today is no longer a military dictatorship that did not allow free speech or freedom of the press. So the reporter is directing his questions to that & clearly GM Lee responded that they had nothing else to say. He now says it was karate & they no longer have to hide the connection, as they are now on top of the world. I am not sure how this can not been seen as it is spelled out for us. GM Lee says so in his own words. This is also what Steve Capener, PhD also says.

Now of course Gen Choi in his book did say that 1,300 years ago, Korea had their own fighting arts. But he made clear for so long, including in his 1965 book that he created TKD & used karate to do so & he was the father of TKD etc. Everyone knows that Gen Choi always took credit as TKD's founder so there was no way he was saying it was 2,000 years old. Its funny that you make this claim. Maybe GM Lee could not have come up with such a story on his own & he had to build off of Gen Choi's 1,300 year old story of Korea having martial arts then. But of course GM Lee, the KTA, KKW & WTF all left out the very apparent, plain to see karate connection. They still have not set the record straight!

 

[rmclain]

Oh, and by the way, the earliest book about the Palgwae and Yudanja "hyung" as they were called, was GM LEE Won Kuk's book, Taekwondo Kyobon, published in 1968, which was co-authored by GM PARK Hae Man. It wasn't GM KIM Pyung Soo's Palgwae series by Ohara Publications.


What page(s) of GM Lee Won-guek's book are the Palgue forms mentioned?

R. McLain

 

[puunui]

What page(s) of GM Lee Won-guek's book are the Palgue forms mentioned?

I'll go look tonight when I get home. GM Lee's book also gives the original names of Pyongwon and Ilyeo too.

 

[puunui]

What page(s) of GM Lee Won-guek's book are the Palgue forms mentioned?

287-306.

 

[rmclain]

287-306.

Thank you. I know of this book, but always heard there were just karate-based forms typical of most kwanduring that era. Is it in Korean or English?

I would like to obtain a copy. Do you have the copyright date, publisher, etc.? Any info I might need to track it down would be helpful.

Thank you.

R. McLain