TKD Pioneers Were Not Monolithic

[leadleg]

You can not use the original Koryo for testing at KKW. Why would a 4th dan want to pass anyone that did not know the minimum KKW requirments? They are not that hard,if we only used the KKW requirements Our students would be bored to quitting

 

[bluewaveschool]

Even with a different form set, a good instructor can tell good from bad form/hyung/poomse performance.

 

[leadleg]

The style of poomse, 8 taegueks,and the dan forms are one of the most distinct ways to tell if someone is KKW TKD or not.
It could be that you may get in the door but at some point you would have to learn and teach those specific forms.
I will wait for Puunui to explain that.
It is hard enough for KKW guys who have moo duk kwan or other Japanese based kwans to conform to the KKW stances much less change forms.

 

[dancingalone]

It is hard enough for KKW guys who have moo duk kwan or other Japanese based kwans to conform to the KKW stances much less change forms.

Absolutely. Japanese karate people tend to think KKW forms look sloppy and unfocused, while I imagine the same KKW people might think Japanese kata look overly rigid.

Kind of tough to serve more than 1 master, you know? I practice a few Shorin-ryu kata in addition to my main style of Goju-ryu karate. It can be tough for me to remember to punch and move the correct way with the Shorin-ryu forms and I've actually known them longer than the Goju forms. Hopefully I will get to the point to where they are as naturally to me as my 'base', but I'm not there yet.

I can only see madness from trying to practice the Tae Geuks in conjunction with the old kwan hyung.

 

[IcemanSK]

Because there are still people that teach the original poomsae, as well teach the original version of Koryo. Remember the Tae Gueks came around in the 70's, even though they are the most practice poomsae they are not the only ones. The last thing I will mention is all you need is a certified KKW 4th and they can sign off for you up until your 3rd and the KKW has no way of knowing if you really know anything. They do not police there members at all.

It's actually even easier than that, honestly. All one needs is for an instructor who keeps up with the KKW requirements & tests on them him/her self. They can test students on the ANYTHING & call it a KKW Dan test. There's a guy in my town who doesn't even teach his students poomsae of any kind. They have legit KKW dan certs. (I've checked).

Sadly, this (& worse) happen daily.

 

[leadleg]

Absolutely. Japanese karate people tend to think KKW forms look sloppy and unfocused, while I imagine the same KKW people might think Japanese kata look overly rigid.

Kind of tough to serve more than 1 master, you know? I practice a few Shorin-ryu kata in addition to my main style of Goju-ryu karate. It can be tough for me to remember to punch and move the correct way with the Shorin-ryu forms and I've actually known them longer than the Goju forms. Hopefully I will get to the point to where they are as naturally to me as my 'base', but I'm not there yet.

I can only see madness from trying to practice the Tae Geuks in conjunction with the old kwan hyung.

Yes it is probably a mistake to try and teach different stances for different style forms,but we do it. We believe that certain forms teach or build foundations for a good martial artist, so if you are not doing the KKW forms we ask for deeper stances.We only do some of the moo duk kwan forms. The KKW stances are more natural and I think easier to transition from. Sometimes I feel as though I have to climb up out of those deep horse or back stances,also it isn't easy to kick from a low and long front stance.
My take on this is what are you doing the form for,movement,excersize,or aesthetics.
Not that I know anything though

 

[andyjeffries]

You will only get it if you try to understand Taekwondo from the Korean cultural perspective, instead of one's own "they speak funny english in england" perspective.

It's funny, I always consider the language spoken in America to be "American" not English. I know there are more of you speaking the language than there are in England, but I'd say English is as spoken in England, others are variations (the same as Canadian French isn't the same as France French, but France French is the official one).

 

[terryl965]

The style of poomse, 8 taegueks,and the dan forms are one of the most distinct ways to tell if someone is KKW TKD or not.
It could be that you may get in the door but at some point you would have to learn and teach those specific forms.
I will wait for Puunui to explain that.
It is hard enough for KKW guys who have moo duk kwan or other Japanese based kwans to conform to the KKW stances much less change forms.

Why wait for puunui to explain it, the KKW does not know who really knows any poomsae or for that matter and KKW techs at all. If you can find a 5th he can sign off on your 4th and you may only know the Chon-ji sets of poomsae. The KKW has no way of knowing if all people that are KKW certified knows anything. Lets Take G.M. Kurban he always tought the Chon-ji sets but yet he is a KKW certified 8th Dan, G.M. Park sign oiff on him. Now I know G.M. Kurban and he has been around for ever, the old PKA he was part of and he even helped bring Won Chik Park over. The point I am making is you do not even have to do any KKW curriculum and you can be KKW certified, people today will pay big money for it, hell the USAT even had special testing for those wishing to get aKKW certificate. The paper is getting less value because so many have it and does not even teach or practice KKW TKD, not even the basic requirement. KKW TKD is a simple complex series, you ahve to add or else every student would not say in TKD.

Last thing the KKW and the WTF are two seperate identities one issue certificates and the other governs sport TKD and yes they say sport TKD on the WTF website.

 

[andyjeffries]

Lets Take G.M. Kurban he always tought the Chon-ji sets but yet he is a KKW certified 8th Dan, G.M. Park sign oiff on him.

Surely then the KKW certificate is invalid. As much as the Kukkiwon trusts its masters to grade people, there are regulations in place that specify what should be tested (and it includes the Taegeuk series and Yudanja poomsae). If the test isn't in accordance with the KKW rules then it shouldn't have been given.

That said, I know Koreans are more in to relationships than standards so I can understand this happening. It's part of life.

 

[puunui]

The style of poomse, 8 taegueks,and the dan forms are one of the most distinct ways to tell if someone is KKW TKD or not. It could be that you may get in the door but at some point you would have to learn and teach those specific forms. I will wait for Puunui to explain that.

How this was handled in Korea was through the mandatory Instructor Course that all practitioners had to graduate from if they wanted to open a dojang in Korea. Outside of Korea, the Kukkiwon Instructor Course is voluntary, so we have more diversity. But, if practitioners wish to get promoted to Kukkiwon 8th Dan or higher, they must physically test at the Kukkiwon. So those who live outside of Korea can theortically get promoted to Kukkiwon 7th Dan, but if they want higher rank, then they have to at least practice the yudanja poomsae for their Kukkiwon test.

It is hard enough for KKW guys who have moo duk kwan or other Japanese based kwans to conform to the KKW stances much less change forms.

There shouldn't be any issue between the way the Kukkiwon poomsae are taught and the older stances are taught because they are based on the same stances.

 

[miguksaram]

If you look back in history the Koreans did not have sword dueling as they thought it barbaric,

Are you saying straight up challenges or are you talking about the practice of the sword? The reason why I asked is because part of the training especially in nobility was the practice and use of the sword and bow.

If you look at the games they played in early history it included kicking one opponent out of a circle, I believe WTF style sparring is very Korean.

Yet, another popular game was two teams hurling stones at each other. It was not played by the nobles but they were the first to go and watch.

 

[puunui]

They do not police there members at all.

That is only partially true. The Kukkiwon isn't going to send someone to your dojang to check on your curriculum, but students who do not practice the Kukkiwon poomsae will be limited in what they can do. For example, if you do not practice the Taeguek or Yudanja poomsae, then you will not be able to participate at the Kukkiwon's Hanmadang either as a competitor or a referee. That same student will also not be able to successfully pass the Kukkiwon Instructor Course nor any special dan promotion test such as the one held by USAT at US Open.

 

[miguksaram]

Absolutely. Japanese karate people tend to think KKW forms look sloppy and unfocused, while I imagine the same KKW people might think Japanese kata look overly rigid.

As a Shorei-ryu practitioner, I find the the KKW Poomsae very robotic and stiff. I would not grade them as sloppy or unfocus. It is my own personal opinoin that the poomsae lack personality, or umph. However, I blame my own lack of understanding them more than the forms themselves.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

What I am saying is that they were excluded from Kukki Taekwondo, by their own actions. Whether they teach "true" Taekwondo, I guess people can argue about that one all day long. I know there are people out there who feel much more strongly about that issue than I do. Personally, I think we all fall short in one way or another teaching what is the ideal. No one is perfect.

And GM Hee Il CHO has adopted the Kukkiwon poomsae and is Kukkiwon certified, so I would consider him a Kukkiwon certified master instructor. He even wrote books on the Kukkiwon poomsae.

Which I happen to own. Great books!

Daniel

 

[puunui]

Why wait for puunui to explain it, the KKW does not know who really knows any poomsae or for that matter and KKW techs at all.

If you graduated from (or failed) the Kukkiwon Instructor Course or the Kukkiwon International Referee course, then the Kukkiwon knows how much in compliance you are.

Lets Take G.M. Kurban he always tought the Chon-ji sets but yet he is a KKW certified 8th Dan, G.M. Park sign oiff on him.

The Kukkiwon requires all candidates for Kukkiwon 8th Dan and higher to physically test at the Kukkiwon. Also, for Kukkiwon 8th Dan and higher, you do not need anyone to "sign off" on your promotion application.

The paper is getting less value because so many have it and does not even teach or practice KKW TKD, not even the basic requirement.

I hope it reaches the point where practitioners realize that rank is meaningless, or for that matter, that rank isn't something that should be so focused on. Better to do it the Korean way and simply look at the person and his actions or what they say and think.

KKW TKD is a simple complex series, you ahve to add or else every student would not say in TKD.

I feel sad when I hear comments like this. I know many instructors who only teach Kukki Taekwondo and their students stay with them forever. It's not the curriculum, it's the teacher. See my posts on jigsaw puzzles.

 

[puunui]

As much as the Kukkiwon trusts its masters to grade people, there are regulations in place that specify what should be tested (and it includes the Taegeuk series and Yudanja poomsae). If the test isn't in accordance with the KKW rules then it shouldn't have been given.

That is stage three thinking, but not everyone is there yet. So we have to continue to practice patience, that one day they will get there. I am just happy that they call what they do Taekwondo and that they are Kukkiwon certified.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Are you saying straight up challenges or are you talking about the practice of the sword? The reason why I asked is because part of the training especially in nobility was the practice and use of the sword and bow.

Korea for several centuries followed a path of Neo Confucianism. Martial arts were for the military. Korea did not have a warrior or militaristic culture like Japan did. Nor was dueling popular like it was in western Europe.

I'm sure that there were duels between people with swords, but it was the exception and not the rule, so codified sword arts did not develop around dueling. Codified use of the sword was developed by the military as a part of fighting wars, along with codified use of other weapons.

Daniel

 

[andyjeffries]

That is stage three thinking, but not everyone is there yet. So we have to continue to practice patience, that one day they will get there. I am just happy that they call what they do Taekwondo and that they are Kukkiwon certified.

Sorry, you lost me with "stage three thinking" - what are the stages in thinking?

Are you referring to the unconscious incompetence -> conscious incompetence -> conscious competence -> unconscious competence scale?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I've been reading the many new TKD threads with great interest. It's nice to have some good discussion on the board and I hope it keeps up.

One thing I would like to understand better for myself is what exactly is a TKD pioneer? Is it a very select group, such as the kwan heads only and perhaps their senior students. Are it the students who were actually practicing during the Tae Kwon Do/Tae Soo Do/ Kong Soo Do name wars even if they didn't hold leadership positions? Do you have to be part of the KKW or the ITF to qualify as a 'pioneer'?

The answer has a lot to do with whether TKD should have a united vision for the future or not. As I see it, the people I consider to be TKD pioneers were a diverse group of men with sometimes contradictory goals. We've seen in the other discussions that some of them even hated each other, such as Hwang Kee vs. General Choi or General Choi vs. a bunch of other guys.

So the themes we see hashed out today such as

self-defense vs. sport
Japanese forms vs. 'Korean' forms
'traditional' vs. nontraditional

aren't anything new. They are quarrels we inherited from our seniors and just as they never settled the issues decisively, so too is it impossible to reconcile them all to the satisfaction of every one.

Prior to the Kukkiwon's formation, you had the nine kwans. I'm sure that there was a goodly amount of common goals between them as well as individual goals. What they did prior to the Kukkiwon was still considered taekwondo. Some did not join and so you have Hwang Kee's MDK, which I don't think is called Taekwondo, and of course you have the ITF, from which the ATA and later the ITA branced out from, all calling what they do taekwondo.

By and large, I think that there was more commonality of purpose than division. That commonality is represented in the Kukkiwon curriculum. The differences may be taught over and above the Kukkiwon curriculum. If I want to add hapkido hoshinsul to my taekwondo curriculum I may do so and still be Kukkiwon so long as I am teaching it in addition to the Kukkiwon curriculum.

Daniel

 

[terryl965]

If you graduated from (or failed) the Kukkiwon Instructor Course or the Kukkiwon International Referee course, then the Kukkiwon knows how much in compliance you are.

Well first of not every KKW person has done the course because it is not a requirement for rank with them. Heck all the lopezs are KKW Dans and Jean is our Olympic coach and he has never done the instructor course, so I do not see how this pertains to anything I have said.



The Kukkiwon requires all candidates for Kukkiwon 8th Dan and higher to physically test at the Kukkiwon. Also, for Kukkiwon 8th Dan and higher, you do not need anyone to "sign off" on your promotion application.

This si true to a point, but not all things are as they seem. What I am saying is any 4th or higher can promote anyone up to one belt below there own KKW rank and the KKW has no means in knowing if they are deserve the rank or not.



I hope it reaches the point where practitioners realize that rank is meaningless, or for that matter, that rank isn't something that should be so focused on. Better to do it the Korean way and simply look at the person and his actions or what they say and think.

The Koreans are the one that says you need the rank, so your point does not hold merit in this instance.



I feel sad when I hear comments like this. I know many instructors who only teach Kukki Taekwondo and their students stay with them forever. It's not the curriculum, it's the teacher. See my posts on jigsaw puzzles.

The KKW curriculum is a basic guidelines of principle techs. Please point in to any instructor that only teaches KKW by the KKW textbook so I can reference them. Because all that I know add more to there set of curriculum to help change and develope there people. To my knowledge there is only one set of curriculum and that is in the copy of the KKW Tae Kwon Do Textbook.

Just an insert from the preface by then Vise President Woon-Kyu Uhm second paragraph Taekwondo has grown to become a martial art sport practiced by people thoughout the world and now is loved for it merits as fitness exercise:therefore, the Korean Taekwondo experts bear the responsibilities for the guidance of other peoples in training them with the upright Taekwondo spirit and modern techniques and skills in accordance with the wishes of President of Kukkiwon Un-Yong Kim who also stresses the dissemination of orthodox traditions of the Korean martial art sport.