Titles

[Xue Sheng]

A title is necessary if you want to become a teacher / Sensei especially if you want to living from the Martial Arts

Nope

But the title say nothing about your skills (about 20 years ago I as a 2nd Dan Taekwon-Do challenged a amateur boxer with NO titels for a full contact fight and beat me in 30 seconds....)

A title is just that a title and it does not necessarily mean a thing.


There is nothing wrong with earned titles, emphasis on EARNED. Do the time do the training and if someone calls you Grand Master, Master, Sifu Sensei, etc. that is ok with me.

What is not ok are those that insist upon it whether a governing body has given them the title or not. Or those that are angered that a student calls them teacher or Mr. or master and corrects said student with "That's GRAND MASTER" or if one day a guy shows up and say I have been training my style for 10, 20, 30 years or more so now I'm a grand master. These are the titles I have a problem with.

Personally when I taught and if I teach again my students call me by my first name. All of my CMA sifus have been called by there first name and my Yang Tai Chi Sifu has been doing Yang Tai Chi and only yang Tai chi for somewhere around 45 to 50 years and all his students call him by his first name, except for a few of us Traditionalist types that call him Sifu. And he refers to his teacher as Sifu and his teacher's teacher as Sifu and as far as my style goes if anyone was going to be called Grand master it would be his Sifu (Tung Ying Chieh) and his Sifu’s Sifu who was Yang Chengfu. The only title I have ever heard, other than Sifu applied to Yang Chengfu was Old master by one of his few living students.

But with that said if someone where to call Chengfu Grand master I have no problem with it. If the guy down the street with 5 years in Tai chi who knows Yang 24, 48 form and a wu form and has been to a couple of Chen family seminars insists upon it I have a REAL problem with that.

But think of all the real long time Martial Artist out there, how many actually call themselve Grand Master.


EDIT: This thought just hit me. It would seem that if one insists that they be called Grand master that they feel they know all there is to know about their martial art and therefore they have nothing left to learn. To me this is actually rather a sad thought.

 

[Kacey]

A title is necessary if you want to become a teacher / Sensei especially if you want to living from the Martial Arts.

Why? I've been teaching for 15 years, and my only title is "sahbum". My students call me Ms. or ma'am, and I call them Mr. or Ms., sir or ma'am, as appropriate. In all that time, no one has asked to see my certificates, asked if I have a title, etc. - just watched me teach, either from in or out of the class. No, I don't make a living from it - but I do know people who do, who have no title other than "instructor" in the language of their style; some of them don't even use that.

But the title say nothing about your skills (about 20 years ago I as a 2nd Dan Taekwon-Do challenged a amateur boxer with NO titels for a full contact fight and beat me in 30 seconds....)

Certainly can't argue with that... although it would seem to support my question about why one needs a title to teach - if a title says nothing about one's abilities, then why does one need it to teach? I will (and do) learn from anyone who demonstrates competence at a skill I want to learn - titles, or lack thereof, notwithstanding.

 

[German Coach]

Why? I've been teaching for 15 years, and my only title is "sahbum". My students call me Ms. or ma'am, and I call them Mr. or Ms., sir or ma'am, as appropriate. In all that time, no one has asked to see my certificates, asked if I have a title, etc. - just watched me teach, either from in or out of the class. No, I don't make a living from it - but I do know people who do, who have no title other than "instructor" in the language of their style; some of them don't even use that.


Certainly can't argue with that... although it would seem to support my question about why one needs a title to teach - if a title says nothing about one's abilities, then why does one need it to teach? I will (and do) learn from anyone who demonstrates competence at a skill I want to learn - titles, or lack thereof, notwithstanding.

I meant the legal side and I can only speak for Germany. If you don´t have a state recognized certificate that allows you to teach, you can have serious problems if for example a student get hurt. For example my different titels from all over the world and different associations didn´t count. I had to to a be tested by an authority in order to teach.

And of course my students call me by my first name

 

[Kacey]

I meant the legal side and I can only speak for Germany. If you don´t have a state recognized certificate that allows you to teach, you can have serious problems if for example a student get hurt. For example my different titels from all over the world and different associations didn´t count. I had to to a be tested by an authority in order to teach.

This was in no way evident in your previous post. There is, I think, a significant legal difference between any certification required by the government and any certification and/or titles conferred by and/or required by your MA organization(s). This thread is, I believe, referring to the latter.

And of course my students call me by my first name

I prefer to use patronymics in class because it helps with the mindset of setting class time apart from the rest of the day, which, in my opinion, helps people to concentrate. My students call me by my first name outside of class - except for those who refuse, even when asked to do so; the reasons they have given me range from demonstrating respect (adults and kids) to relative age, as half of my students are kids, and either their parents do not allow them to call adults by their first name, or they are not comfortable doing so. If you prefer it otherwise, that's your choice; whatever works for you. There is no "of course" about it in my opinion - there is only what works for the instructor and his/her students.

 

[jdinca]

If I am a scoffer...

...Does that make me a bad person?

It just strikes me as strange as technically, words like "master," do not appear in other groupings or gatherings other than martial arts circles. Its usage is antiquated, even in most Asian settings. You can have a Master Carpenter or Electrician or even Story-teller, as this speaks to the Level of Skill rather than being...MSTER of the Plantation and ALL they Survey (which is how it is used a lot...not by all... But alot IMO). But you don't see Master Bricklayers walking up to people and signing their name : "Master Stoney Jackson."

I guess my biggest problem with the whole mess is that it has been so abused and perverted over the years that I have a problem with it (almost a knee-jerk reaction). But can you blame me? When I was dragged to a Martial Arts Tournament and forced to watch obesely fat middle aged want-to-be jedi's swinging swords around like they were on the pep squad and then have to refer to said rocket surgeons as Master, it took everything I had not to loose my lunch on their fancy battery operated hakamas.

I am no martial arts superguy mself, but when I meet people who are true masters of their arts, I am usually very impressed. No matter what they call themselves. When I see people acting like this :

In real life... I want to run and burn all my martial arts uniforms so I can't be associated with that drivel. But as I said earlier, technically the problem is with how I perceive the practice and not the practice itself.

Regards,
Walt

Better a scoffer than a scoffee! I agree with everything you have to say.

 

[MJS]

And this is a good example of where the titles have a purpose. The titles attest to the persons skill BACKED UP BY their past achievements, and not just becuase they opened up their own chess club and they need something flashy to put on the door to draw in students.

Great example,
Regards,
Walt

Exactly! I'm more impressed with what the person can do, their skill, and what positive things they've done for the art, rather than what title they're holding.

 

[MJS]

The guy in in a unique situation where he is probably the first and last word of Kenpo in his area. He will be that area's grandmaster. I understand American's thinking he should hook up with an already existing American Grandmaster and just be happy, but its a business, and as far as Kenpo goes in south Africa there is no need to affilate yourself with the United States. I think his mistake is asking the opinion of those Americans.
Sean

Ya know, reading some of the posts that he's been making, I have to wonder what his intentions are. In any case, I still feel that what should be first and foremost, is what he can offer to that area, not concerning himself with the GM title.

Just my thoughts.

Mike

 

[MJS]

A title is necessary if you want to become a teacher / Sensei especially if you want to living from the Martial Arts.

But the title say nothing about your skills (about 20 years ago I as a 2nd Dan Taekwon-Do challenged a amateur boxer with NO titels for a full contact fight and beat me in 30 seconds....)

True. I see nothing wrong with Mr., Sir, Sifu, Sensei. However, the person in question is talking about giving himself the title of GM. I think there is quite a big difference between that title and the others I listed.

Mike

 

[German Coach]

This was in no way evident in your previous post. There is, I think, a significant legal difference between any certification required by the government and any certification and/or titles conferred by and/or required by your MA organization(s). This thread is, I believe, referring to the latter.


I prefer to use patronymics in class because it helps with the mindset of setting class time apart from the rest of the day, which, in my opinion, helps people to concentrate. My students call me by my first name outside of class - except for those who refuse, even when asked to do so; the reasons they have given me range from demonstrating respect (adults and kids) to relative age, as half of my students are kids, and either their parents do not allow them to call adults by their first name, or they are not comfortable doing so. If you prefer it otherwise, that's your choice; whatever works for you. There is no "of course" about it in my opinion - there is only what works for the instructor and his/her students.

Do you think my students should call me abbot (of the dojo), just because I am certified by the Shaolin Monastery in China ?

 

[Drac]

What a GREAT picture Coach...

 

[German Coach]

What a GREAT picture Coach...

Thanks, but the time when the photo was shot I was already infected with the legionnaire disease. They had no antibiotics, but the chinese doctor saved my life with accupuncture. Here are mor photos:

 

[German Coach]

side Kick in the forbidden city

 

[German Coach]

 

[German Coach]

hm..........perhaps that pic works

<img src="http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/7405/hanspeterpk4.jpg" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us" />

 

[Kacey]

Do you think my students should call me abbot (of the dojo), just because I am certified by the Shaolin Monastery in China?

As I said, your students can address you however you feel is appropriate. I find it more appropriate to use patronymics and honorifics (sir/ma'am) in class - both from and toward my students. Unlike many other seniors I have seen, however, my students are all encouraged to call me by my first name outside of class, as my primary reason for the use of patronymics has to do with setting the class time apart from the rest of the day. Some of them call me by first name outside of class, some of them don't; some of them avoid the use of names entirely outside of class to avoid confusion within class, some are kids whose parents won't allow them to call adults by first name regardless of what the adult says (go, parents who teach their kids respect!). Once we leave class, I don't really care what they use, as long as it's reasonably polite - or at least appropriate to the setting we're in, as some of us often go out to eat after class.

 

[Drac]

Great photos Coach and great memories for you..

 

[Kreth]

Great photos Coach and great memories for you..

Agreed, but they have nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I think titles are fine and if you wish to be called something or call someone by a title that is absolutely okay. As for myself personally I have my students call me Brian as that is my name. When I do teach my kid's they call me sir. (as that is appropriate in the Training Hall) I have no problem calling another instructor by their title if that is what they want.

Having said all of that what is important is not the title but one's ability and if you are a teacher then one's ability to teach as well!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

By the way Coach I love the pictures as well!

 

[Drac]

Agreed, but they have nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

Alas tis true...