Master and Grandmaster titles

[TrueJim]

I think the problem is that your average layman might have heard of the WTF (because of the Olympics, and because Kukkiwon-style schools often have WTF banners on the wall) but your average laymen usually hasn't heard of the Kukkiwon (often only people inside the art have heard of it). It's the classic problem that all writers (and dictionary publishers) have: do you call something by its technically correct name, or by the name that it's more likely to be recognized by? Does one want to be right, or does one want to be understood? Is the purpose of language to educate, or is it to communicate? As has been pointed out many times in these forums, there's really no such thing as "WTF-style" per se, and yet often that's the name it's most often recognized by. Personally, I tend to gauge my audience and use whichever term that I think will be most likely understood.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I think the problem is that your average layman might have heard of the WTF (because of the Olympics, and because Kukkiwon-style schools often have WTF banners on the wall) but your average laymen usually hasn't heard of the Kukkiwon (often only people inside the art have heard of it). It's the classic problem that all writers (and dictionary publishers) have: do you call something by its technically correct name, or by the name that it's more likely to be recognized by? Does one want to be right, or does one want to be understood? Is the purpose of language to educate, or is it to communicate? As has been pointed out many times in these forums, there's really no such thing as "WTF-style" per se, and yet often that's the name it's most often recognized by. Personally, I tend to gauge my audience and use whichever term that I think will be most likely understood.

So if you have a broken leg, you're ok with me calling it a sprain?
For communication to be useful, it needs to be accurate and precise. Otherwise, it's just noise.

 

[Earl Weiss]

So if you have a broken leg, you're ok with me calling it a sprain?
For communication to be useful, it needs to be accurate and precise. Otherwise, it's just noise.

Unless you are my "Treater" I really don't care what someone calls it.

It's no secret the KKW / WTF lobbied hard for the Olympics. Aside from people enrolling in schools or having family members enrolled, that is probably the largest exposure to TKD with Olympic TKD using a certain style of sparring which is the one regulated by the WTF.

So, technical issues aside WTF is a style. It is the Olympic style of sparring. So, while there is certainly an argument that there is "No such thing as WTF-Style" We would first have to agree on how to define "Style".

 

[Dirty Dog]

Unless you are my "Treater" I really don't care what someone calls it.

If I weren't treating it, I wouldn't likely be talking about it.

It's no secret the KKW / WTF lobbied hard for the Olympics. Aside from people enrolling in schools or having family members enrolled, that is probably the largest exposure to TKD with Olympic TKD using a certain style of sparring which is the one regulated by the WTF.

So, technical issues aside WTF is a style. It is the Olympic style of sparring. So, while there is certainly an argument that there is "No such thing as WTF-Style" We would first have to agree on how to define "Style".

Well, no, it's not, since the topic was style of TKD, not style of sparring. Surely you're not one to suggest that TKD is nothing more than one limited subset of sparring rules?

But, if you like, how about this for a working definition of a style of martial arts:
An org that sets curriculum standards, awards rank, trains and credentials instructors, has a membership of schools and individuals involved in the art and in general promotes the art as a whole.

You might note that the WTF doesn't do any of these things.

 

[TrueJim]

So if you have a broken leg, you're ok with me calling it a sprain?
For communication to be useful, it needs to be accurate and precise. Otherwise, it's just noise.

Let me try a counter-example: Technically, there is no country called America. Its only correct name is the United States of America. There are two continents each called America; one in the north and one in the south. To call the U.S.A. "America" is wildly inaccurate. For one thing, such usage confuses the name of continents with the name of a country. One is a geographic body, the other a political entity. They're not even remotely similar! But people still call the U.S.A. "America" all the time, and it doesn't seem to create any problems. It is very imprecise - spectacularly so, if you think about it ("you're confusing a political entity with a big hunk of rock and dirt?") - but it's shorthand, and people understand what's being said.

Likewise, calling Kukkiwon-style "WTF-style" is wildly inaccurate: these are two completely distinct bodies (albeit incestual) with radically different charters. But for most people who are only "casually" familiar with taekwondo (if at all), the Kukkiwon is an organization they've never, ever heard of...but the WTF is a "style" they might recognize from the Olympics. To me at least, calling the style by the name "WTF-style" is exactly the same amount of inaccuracy as calling the U.S.A. "America".

 

[ShotoNoob]

Let me try a counter-example: Technically, there is no country called America. Its only correct name is the United States of America. There are two continents each called America; one in the north and one in the south. To call the U.S.A. "America" is wildly inaccurate....

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And I don't ever want to become a "Master," took the words right out of my mouth...............

 

[Dirty Dog]

Let me try a counter-example: Technically, there is no country called America. Its only correct name is the United States of America. There are two continents each called America; one in the north and one in the south. To call the U.S.A. "America" is wildly inaccurate. For one thing, such usage confuses the name of continents with the name of a country. One is a geographic body, the other a political entity. They're not even remotely similar! But people still call the U.S.A. "America" all the time, and it doesn't seem to create any problems. It is very imprecise - spectacularly so, if you think about it ("you're confusing a political entity with a big hunk of rock and dirt?") - but it's shorthand, and people understand what's being said.

Likewise, calling Kukkiwon-style "WTF-style" is wildly inaccurate: these are two completely distinct bodies (albeit incestual) with radically different charters. But for most people who are only "casually" familiar with taekwondo (if at all), the Kukkiwon is an organization they've never, ever heard of...but the WTF is a "style" they might recognize from the Olympics. To me at least, calling the style by the name "WTF-style" is exactly the same amount of inaccuracy as calling the U.S.A. "America".

I see your point, but I disagree. "America" is a shortened version of the full name of "United States of America". Likewise, some people will shorten Kukkiwon taekwondo to KKW or KukkiTKD or other variants.

Mixing Kukkiwon and WTF is more akin to referring to the USA as Pakistan.

And it really doesn't matter what "casual" people think. This is a martial arts forum, and one might reasonably assume that the people on it have a more than "casual" familiarity with the subject.

Similarly, I won't make fun of a layman who comes to the ER for "the flu" when their complaint is vomiting andn diarrhea. I don't expect the layman to necessarily know that the flu is a respiratory infection and that the "stomach flu" is not in any way, shape or form influenza.
But if a paramedic or nurse does it, it's an entirely different situation.

 

[Tez3]

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And I don't ever want to become a "Master," took the words right out of my mouth...............

always fancied being a Mistress but too old now......

 

[Earl Weiss]

Well, no, it's not, since the topic was style of TKD, not style of sparring. Surely you're not one to suggest that TKD is nothing more than one limited subset of sparring rules?

.

Suggest? No. I will flat out say it. For some whose only exposure or by far the largest exposure to TKD is / was Olympic Sparring, TKD was simply a set of sparring rules. Case in point "Arlene Limas" Originaly a Chinese stylist who sparred in open competition and became a "TKD competitor" going on to win an Olympic Gold Medal.

 

[Earl Weiss]

But, if you like, how about this for a working definition of a style of martial arts:
An org that sets curriculum standards, awards rank, trains and credentials instructors, has a membership of schools and individuals involved in the art and in general promotes the art as a whole.

You might note that the WTF doesn't do any of these things.

Sounds like you are defining an MA ORGANIZATION, not an MA Style or system.

Question. If I see a school with the WTF Flag on the wall, assuming it's there legitimately, what is the relationship of the school to the WTF in order to have that flag?

 

[TrueJim]

For some whose only exposure or by far the largest exposure to TKD is / was Olympic Sparring, TKD was simply a set of sparring rules.

This is a great point and one I noodle over sometimes...what's the point of requiring a dan certificate for competition? If a person's legs are fast enough, limber enough, and strong enough to score points by bashing an opponent about the head and chest (while avoiding the same) -- should that person be allowed to compete? Sure they'd have to prove themselves first to compete at a higher level (just as with, for example, boxing) but it's not as if boxers have to show a Boxxiwon certificate.

It's a slippery slope though, isn't it? If one didn't require a dan certificate, why call this taekwondo at all? It's just two people kicking each other really really skillfully. But then that makes you stop and think...well, isn't that what Olympic-style taekwondo is anyway? For most people, I suppose that is taekwondo. For those of us who practice taekwondo, it's hopefully a lot more than that, but that's the part of the iceberg that's below sea-level.

 

[Tez3]

It's just two people kicking each other really really skillfully.

That would be shin kicking. Yes, there is such a thing and competitions.

 

[TrueJim]

That would be shin kicking.

I have never been to a shin-kicking competition! I'll put that on the bucket list.

No, I mean, what would Olympic taekwondo look like if the rules were exactly the same, but dan certificates were not required? I conjecture that it would look just like what it looks like now. It would be people with amazing cardio, lightning reflexes, and really strong, fast legs kicking each other in the chest and head. Maybe they wouldn't know any poomsae, but that doesn't really enter into it. So what's the point of the dan certificate? Scoring a point doesn't require that the kick be any particular style of kick, does it, as long as the rules are being followed (i.e., the striking surface is the foot, not the shin or ankle, etc.)?

I mean, given that the rules are what they are, studying taekwondo probably helps quite a lot, since the taekwondo teaches you how to kick high and fast. But to Earl's point, if a person is kicking high and fast at that level of competency, for most spectators that alone would define it as taekwondo. If (say) a Wushu competitor could kick high and fast like that, scoring Olympic-style points...wouldn't most spectactors still call that taekwondo?

 

[Tez3]

I have never been to a shin-kicking competition! I'll put that on the bucket list.

No, I mean, what would Olympic taekwondo look like if the rules were exactly the same, but dan certificates were not required? I conjecture that it would look just like what it looks like now. It would be people with amazing cardio, lightning reflexes, and really strong, fast legs kicking each other in the chest and head. Maybe they wouldn't know any poomsae, but that doesn't really enter into it. So what's the point of the dan certificate? Scoring a point doesn't require that the kick be any particular style of kick, does it, as long as the rules are being followed (i.e., the striking surface is the foot, not the shin or ankle, etc.)?

I mean, given that the rules are what they are, studying taekwondo probably helps quite a lot, since the taekwondo teaches you how to kick high and fast. But to Earl's point, if a person is kicking high and fast at that level of competency, for most spectators that alone would define it as taekwondo. If (say) a Wushu competitor could kick high and fast like that, scoring Olympic-style points...wouldn't most spectactors still call that taekwondo?

I've noticed recently that people now say they 'do' martial arts or they are a black belt 'in martial arts' rather than say what they do. I think the general public, here at least, think there's Judo ( the staple of many a spy/action type film here for donkey's years) and there's the standing up one where they wear a 'uniform' plus there's kickboxing/Thai boxing. I don't know that no martial artists differentiate between karate styles and TKD to be honest, they are far too similar for a layperson to tell the difference. TKD here is reasonably well known because of the Olympics, the London ones specifically plus the one before where the British girl was 'robbed' of her medal, that made a big splash and not in a good way.
From what I've seen of Olympic organisations they are very jealous of the control they can have over their sport so I imagine you will always have to be certified in TKD to compete in the Olympics, having karate and other people in would be a disaster in their eyes. It's to do with money as much as anything, the Sports Councils here give money to Olympic sports organisations according to their success, no organisation would want that money to go elsewhere. I don't know how it works in other countries though.

Shin kicking is actually great fun, it's one of England's more interesting rural pursuits. Predates the modern Olympics too.

Shin-kicking Robert Dover s Cotswold Olimpicks

 

[toddfletcher]

Just checking back. My referring to WTF-style sparked a larger discussion than I would have expected. ;-) In the strict sense Dirty Dog is right. I probably should have reference Kukkiwon instead of the World TKD Federation. My 4th Dan is from OhDoKwan since my master was the 4th master over the civilian annex of OhDoKwan in Seoul many years ago. So while an aspect of my training has been in Olympic style sparring along the lines of what the WTF oversees, my rank is not given by Kukkiwon. I guess that is the source of my statement. I don't consider Kukkiwon as the de facto standard over my TaeKwonDo training. OhDoKwan can be related both to ITF and WTF as it preceded them.

But I can see why my statement can be considered as incorrect. Hopefully the spirit of the statement that 4th Dan is considered Master was understood despite the way I made the point. ;-)

On an similar note, I still address Grandmaster Kim as 'Master' as he is my master. He has never liked titles and we often simply refer to each other as Mr.. the titles are only relevant when serving in an official capacity in our schools.

 

[TrueJim]

I don't know that no martial artists differentiate between karate styles and TKD to be honest, they are far too similar for a layperson to tell the difference.

I think that's often true in the U.S. as well. Here in the U.S., the Los Angeles, the San Francisco/San Jose, the Denver, and the Washington DC/Northern Virginia areas tend to have pretty high population densities of Koreans per capita. I think when you get into those areas, it's not uncommon for even laymen to know that there is a difference (but they usually don't know quite what it is) just because there are so many taekwondo schools in all these neighborhoods. Within 3 miles of my house I'm fortunate enough to have three good Kukkiwon-style schools and 1 ITF-style school. Extend that out to 5 or 10 miles and you're talking literally dozens upon dozens of taekwondo schools in the area. (Though as has been pointed out in other posts, their business strategy is mostly predicated on after-school programs.)

List of U.S. cities with significant Korean-American populations - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

My 7 year old son and I just went out for lunch last Friday at a Korean barbeque place called Honey Pig in Chantilly, Virgina (about a 20 minute drive from us). You can't really see it that well in this Google Street View ( Google Maps ) but this particular shopping center (where Honey Pig is located) is one of several in that Chantilly area where the shops are predominantly Korean to a remarkable extent. Everywhere you look there's Korean restaurants, Korean groceries, Korean karaoke places, Korean banks, and Korean real estate agents. If a person is into taekwondo and wants to soak up a little Korean culture, around here is a great place to be.

 

[WaterGal]

Sounds like you are defining an MA ORGANIZATION, not an MA Style or system.

Question. If I see a school with the WTF Flag on the wall, assuming it's there legitimately, what is the relationship of the school to the WTF in order to have that flag?

Anybody can buy a WTF flag. But yeah, having one does generally indicate that you do a certain style of Taekwondo. One which, while it is actually overseen by Kukkiwon, is widely and generally referred to as "WTF Taekwondo".

 

[Earl Weiss]

I have never been to a shin-kicking competition! I'll put that on the bucket list.

No, I mean, what would Olympic taekwondo look like if the rules were exactly the same, but dan certificates were not required? I conjecture that it would look just like what it looks like now.

Dan certs. are required?
What dan(s).?
Are the requirements for obtaining the cert thru various instructors always pretty much the same?
If the Olympics only has sparring why are there any other requirements?
If you are a top notch fighter may some of the requirements be "relaxed"?

 

[TrueJim]

Dan certs. are required?

That's my understanding, yes. I could be mistaken.

From the WTF website and its tournament rules, http://ftp.worldtaekwondofederation..._Rules_Amendments_E-Voting_2014_copy_copy.pdf

Article 4, Paragraph 1, page 8:

1 Qualification of Contestant
1.1 Holder of the nationality of the participating team
1.2 One recommended by the WTF National Taekwondo Association
1.3 Holder of Taekwondo Dan/Poom certificate issued by the Kukkiwon or WTF
1.4 Holder of the WTF Global Athlete License (GAL)
1.5 Contestants at the age of at least 17 years old in the year the pertinent tournament is held (15-17 years old for
Junior Taekwondo Championships and 12-14 years old for Cadet Championships). Ages for Youth Olympic
Games might be different depending on the decision of the IOC.

These qualifications apply to these types of tournaments:

1 The Competition Rules shall apply to all the competitions to be promoted and/or organized by the WTF, each
Continental Union and member National Association. However, any member National Association wishing to modify
some or any part of the Competition Rules must first gain the prior approval of the WTF. In the case that a Continental
Union and/or a Member National Association violates WTF Competition Rules without prior approval of the WTF, the
WTF may exercise its discretion to disapprove or revoke its approval of the concerned international tournament. In
addition, the WTF may take further disciplinary actions to the pertinent Continental Union or Member National
Association.
2 All competitions promoted, organized, or sanctioned by the WTF shall observe the WTF Statutes, the Bylaws of
Dispute Resolution and Disciplinary Action, and all other pertinent rules and regulations.
3 All competitions promoted, organized, or sanctioned by the WTF shall abide by the WTF Medical Code and the WTF
Anti-Doping Rules.

 

[TrueJim]

P.S. I suppose in theory a WTF National Governing Body (such as USA Taekwondo) and the associated national Olympic Committee could send somebody to the Olympics without a dan certificate. After all, the dan certificate is a requirement for WTF tournaments, not a requirement for the Olympics. But that would mean that a WTF NGB would be sending somebody to the Olympics who'd never competed in a WTF tournament...it's hard to see how that could ever come to pass.

Also, with the recent agreement between the WTF and one of the ITFs, allowing athletes to compete in each other's tournaments, I'll be interested to see if and how the WTF tournament rulebook gets updated. Presumably they'll change item 1.3 to read something like "Holder of a Taekwondo Dan/Poom certificate issued by the Kukkiwon, the WTF, or the ITF." But even then, it's hard to imagine a WTF NGB such as USA Taekwondo sending an ITF athlete to the Olympics if the ITF athlete had never competed in any WTF tournaments. So, one way or another a person would have to compete in some WTF tournaments it seems to me, which presumably means they have to be a dan holder.

As I mentioned previously though, it would be interesting to see how the sport would change if the dan requirement were dropped. Like imagine if any athlete were allowed to compete in WTF tournaments as long as they were following WTF tournament rules: kick high and fast, jumping and spinning a plus. Would we still call that taekwondo?