Titles

[Drac]

To everyone else I go by my ultra secret magical hidden name, wade. It's easier to remember...

QUICK on to the internet with this secret hidden knowledge...LOL

 

[Drac]

I read an interview with Grandmaster John Pellegrini of the Combat Hapkido system once where he stated that a lot of these advancements in rank occure at 75,000 feet when they are flying over the country of their disciplines orgin...

 

[kroh]

I read an interview with Grandmaster John Pellegrini of the Combat Hapkido system once where he stated that a lot of these advancements in rank occure at 75,000 feet when they are flying over the country of their disciplines orgin...

Yep...that is just too cool for school...
Regards,
Walt

 

[Grenadier]

Titles are tools. They can be used for good, or for ill, and are not inherently good or evil in and of themselves.

They are also things that should be earned, and not simply handed to someone once they hit a certain rank. Demonstrating that someone is worthy of such a title should require more than just the rank, since most titles are based on someone's abilities as a teacher, in general.

Just because someone has become a shodan in a system, does not automatically make him a sensei. Just because someone becomes a godan in a system, does not automatically make him a shihan / renshi, and so forth.

What does get me rather irritated, is when people with no teaching experience are automatically handed titles such as sensei and shihan. If anything, when someone is granted such a title, it's more about what they give back to the system, than what they have taken from it.

 

[kroh]

What does get me rather irritated, is when people with no teaching experience are automatically handed titles such as sensei and shihan. If anything, when someone is granted such a title, it's more about what they give back to the system, than what they have taken from it.

It is interesting that titles like this comming from Japanese roots have lost touch with how they were gained in Japan. For example...there were usually strict requirements in that country requiring teachers be certified and fullfill stringent requirements even before being considered for said certification. This of course refers to the gendai budo (modern martial arts created during the turn of the 20th century) and not to the koryu (old schools who had their own strict requriements). I like your observation that such titles, as are being discussed here, are more about what is being given back by the individual. I believe that "back in the day" many of the judo upper tier were given high Step Grades (the dan ranks) due to their service to the sport.

National geographic did a great show on kendo not too long ago (2004) where they were talking about how many the 7th degree experts of that sport have to take a massive test to get the coveted 8th degree. Some have been in the sport for decades and many of them are well over 50 (with one participant on the last step to eighty). Many who take the challenge fail and have to sit at the 7th degree untill the next test. The test is considered harder than the Japanese bar exam (according to the show). I thought it was a great display of fortitude for these 7th degree experts to humble themselves in front of a board and have to compete for the right to earn this coveted title ( it is my understanding based on the documentary that much like some of the other Japanese combat sports, the 9th and 10th step grade are honorary ranks that are bestowed for service and sacrifice). I tried going onto Kendo world to find the video but the link seems to be outdated.

Great Post Grenadier...
Regards,
Walt

 

[Brandon Fisher]

I know of 6th Dan's who have trained people up to 5th Dan and their title is Renshi. I know 7th Dan's who of trained people to 6th Dan level and their Title is Kyoshi. Promoting one person to 5th dan does not qualify one for grandmasters level. Are they are 8th, 9th or 10th dan that want to claim to be a grandmaster? If this person wants grandmaster status there are plenty of organizations that will sell him the paperwork. But doesn't mean its worth anything.

 

[IcemanSK]

How much value do you place on the various titles in the arts? I ask this, because on another forum, I was reading a thread by someone who stated that he was just about ready to test a student of his for 5th degree black. He goes on to say that he's been making a living teaching since 1992, and that bringing someone to this rank shows that he has spent alot of time and commitment with this student. His question was whether or not he should now consider himself a Grandmaster.

Now, I'm not saying that titles should not be used, but IMO, I feel that there should be more behind that title than simply promoting someone to 5th.

Thoughts?

My question for the person who asks that question to others about themself is, "why are you asking yourself that question? That is a question to ask your instructor." If someone has been train long enough to test someone to 5th Dan, I'd imagine that question would have been asked & answered already. I mean no disrepect in this. I'm amazed at how people can train for a long time & still not have clear direction on these types of questions. It's the fault of instructors who do not give clear direction. What is the standard in one's MA system?

 

[IcemanSK]

I read an interview with Grandmaster John Pellegrini of the Combat Hapkido system once where he stated that a lot of these advancements in rank occure at 75,000 feet when they are flying over the country of their disciplines orgin...

My instructor refers to that as "the magic plane". One leaves their destination one rank & lands as another rank. Man! Where do I get a ticket for that flight?!

The problem is, when ya go thru the metal detectors before that flight, you need to leave your integrity & self-respect there. Ya can't take those with you.

 

[Touch Of Death]

The guy in in a unique situation where he is probably the first and last word of Kenpo in his area. He will be that area's grandmaster. I understand American's thinking he should hook up with an already existing American Grandmaster and just be happy, but its a business, and as far as Kenpo goes in south Africa there is no need to affilate yourself with the United States. I think his mistake is asking the opinion of those Americans.
Sean

 

[CTKempo Todd]

If I'm lucky enough to be around in another 40 years and revered as a martial artist with 57 years of experience and lots of stripes on my belt..

Do you know what I want to be called???......Todd..
You know why..Thats my name ;-)

These titles are all getting pretty silly aren't they?

 

[Drac]

If I'm lucky enough to be around in another 40 years and revered as a martial artist with 57 years of experience and lots of stripes on my belt..

Do you know what I want to be called???......Todd..
You know why..Thats my name ;-)

Father Greek is the same way....

 

[kroh]

If I'm lucky enough to be around in another 40 years and revered as a martial artist with 57 years of experience and lots of stripes on my belt..

Do you know what I want to be called???......Todd..
You know why..Thats my name ;-)

These titles are all getting pretty silly aren't they?

:bow:

Regards,
Walt

 

[James Kovacich]

Having a title DOES NOT have to equate being called it by your students. Just like the ranking system with belts as a measurement tool. There are many schools who issue rank/belts but don't even where a gi.

 

[Xue Sheng]

If I'm lucky enough to be around in another 40 years and revered as a martial artist with 57 years of experience and lots of stripes on my belt..

Do you know what I want to be called???......Todd..
You know why..Thats my name ;-)

These titles are all getting pretty silly aren't they?

Actually if I'm around another 40 years I will be happy if I can hear them call me anything.

 

[IcemanSK]

Actually if I'm around another 40 years I will be happy if I can hear them call me anything.

:lfao: :lfao:

 

[Drac]

:lfao: :lfao:

Yep....

 

[Last Fearner]

How much value do you place on the various titles in the arts?

I'm going to respond with one of my philosophical answers:
How much value do I place on titles in the Martial Art? All and none.

I say "all" because there is a meaning and a purpose for these titles that go beyond the misguided egos of individuals. A purpose which is more for the student, than the one carrying the title. As a teacher (another simple title), I am always aware that students can have bigger problems with ego, being arrogant, and not willing to respect anyone, regardless of how humble the teacher is. The use of a title begins to expose this flaw in a student who has trouble humbling themselves by addressing their teacher in such a way. The title is not for my benefit, but to educate students that if you have a problem with a title, then the problem is yours.

I also say that the value of titles is "none" because it is truly not the title that has value, but what the title represents. Thus, I agree with those who say that the title should be earned, it should be bestowed by your seniors, and it should represent more of what you give to teaching, than what you have accomplished.

Just because someone has become a shodan in a system, does not automatically make him a sensei. Just because someone becomes a godan in a system, does not automatically make him a shihan / renshi, and so forth.

What does get me rather irritated, is when people with no teaching experience are automatically handed titles such as sensei and shihan. If anything, when someone is granted such a title, it's more about what they give back to the system, than what they have taken from it.

I agree with Grenadier's statement. Your rank is acknowledgment of your skills and past accomplishments. Titles partially represent what you have done to get where you are, but mostly what you are currently doing to contribute to the Art.

I feel that there should be more behind that title than simply promoting someone to 5th.

I agree! While criteria will vary with each organization, I would submit that a Black Belt is not automatically a teacher, and a teacher is not automatically a Master. A teacher who runs their own school which contains several certified instructors would qualify as a Master Instructor. One who is over the direction of several schools, and the Master instructors who run those schools, would qualify as a Grandmaster, but time, many years of teaching as a Master, and the title being bestowed by your senior is what lends the most credibility.

Well, doesn't whatever art he belong to have a standard set of titles? Ussually a title is awarded to you by people from your organization or from you art. ... There really isn't a time that I can think of when a person should appoint his or herself to a new title.

Exactly! Well said

`Grandmaster'... identifies someone who's made a fundamental and sustained contribution to their art—who has demonstrably advanced it by conspicuous excellence in some core aspect of it over many, many years. Emphasis on many.

I agree!

Titles should be earned - not taken.

Absolutely!

If someone has been train long enough to test someone to 5th Dan, I'd imagine that question would have been asked & answered already. I mean no disrepect in this. I'm amazed at how people can train for a long time & still not have clear direction on these types of questions. It's the fault of instructors who do not give clear direction.

I couldn't have said it better myself, Iceman!

These titles are all getting pretty silly aren't they?

Titles aren't getting silly - - it's the people who are misusing them that are being silly.

Actually if I'm around another 40 years I will be happy if I can hear them call me anything.

I'm 46 years old. I'll just be happy if I'm around in another 40 years!

CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[jdinca]

How much value do you place on the various titles in the arts? I ask this, because on another forum, I was reading a thread by someone who stated that he was just about ready to test a student of his for 5th degree black. He goes on to say that he's been making a living teaching since 1992, and that bringing someone to this rank shows that he has spent alot of time and commitment with this student. His question was whether or not he should now consider himself a Grandmaster.

Now, I'm not saying that titles should not be used, but IMO, I feel that there should be more behind that title than simply promoting someone to 5th.

Thoughts?

I agree with you. Titles like "Master" and "Grand Master" should not be self imposed. It dilutes the meaning of the titles and gives creedence to those who scoff at them.

 

[kroh]

If I am a scoffer...

...Does that make me a bad person?

It just strikes me as strange as technically, words like "master," do not appear in other groupings or gatherings other than martial arts circles. Its usage is antiquated, even in most Asian settings. You can have a Master Carpenter or Electrician or even Story-teller, as this speaks to the Level of Skill rather than being...MSTER of the Plantation and ALL they Survey (which is how it is used a lot...not by all... But alot IMO). But you don't see Master Bricklayers walking up to people and signing their name : "Master Stoney Jackson."

I guess my biggest problem with the whole mess is that it has been so abused and perverted over the years that I have a problem with it (almost a knee-jerk reaction). But can you blame me? When I was dragged to a Martial Arts Tournament and forced to watch obesely fat middle aged want-to-be jedi's swinging swords around like they were on the pep squad and then have to refer to said rocket surgeons as Master, it took everything I had not to loose my lunch on their fancy battery operated hakamas.

I am no martial arts superguy mself, but when I meet people who are true masters of their arts, I am usually very impressed. No matter what they call themselves. When I see people acting like this :

In real life... I want to run and burn all my martial arts uniforms so I can't be associated with that drivel. But as I said earlier, technically the problem is with how I perceive the practice and not the practice itself.

Regards,
Walt

 

[German Coach]

How much value do you place on the various titles in the arts? I ask this, because on another forum, I was reading a thread by someone who stated that he was just about ready to test a student of his for 5th degree black. He goes on to say that he's been making a living teaching since 1992, and that bringing someone to this rank shows that he has spent alot of time and commitment with this student. His question was whether or not he should now consider himself a Grandmaster.

Now, I'm not saying that titles should not be used, but IMO, I feel that there should be more behind that title than simply promoting someone to 5th.

Thoughts?

A title is necessary if you want to become a teacher / Sensei especially if you want to living from the Martial Arts.

But the title say nothing about your skills (about 20 years ago I as a 2nd Dan Taekwon-Do challenged a amateur boxer with NO titels for a full contact fight and beat me in 30 seconds....)