Martial Talk's GMA Martial Arts Lineages

[Buka]

One of my former students has been one of my teachers for many years now. (he's trained under more people than just me)

He's one of the best instructors I've ever met.

One of my longest training students, who is still my student, is also one of my instructors in certain aspects of Martial Arts. He's also a higher rank than I am. (not promoted by me)

A whole bunch of my students are better Martial artists than I am., But, then, they had a really good teacher.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

One of my former students has been one of my teachers for many years now. (he's trained under more people than just me)

What's the definition of "teacher"?

If you learn a form from someone, will that person become your teacher? What if that person also learned a form from you. Will you be his teacher too? If A is teacher for B, can B also be a teacher for A?

A: I teach you single leg. You should call me teacher.
B: I also teach you flying knee. You should call me teacher too.

IMO, sometime friends can learn from each other. there won't be any teacher-student relation issue and there won't be any lineage concern either.

 

[Andrew Green]

If you learn a form from someone, will that person become your teacher? What if that person also learned a form from you. Will you be his teacher too? If A is teacher for B, can B also be a teacher for A?

Why not? Why would it need to be one person is a teacher at all times in all things and the other is "under" them.

Being the "teacher" is simply a roll being played in a given situation, it can be fluid.

Let's take us, suppose we made a deal. I teach you my style, you teach me yours. Seems fine, no issues. We both play the roll at different times with different things and probably both learn new things while in both rolls.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What's the definition of "teacher"?

If you learn a form from someone, will that person become your teacher? What if that person also learned a form from you. Will you be his teacher too? If A is teacher for B, can B also be a teacher for A?

A: I teach you single leg. You should call me teacher.
B: I also teach you flying knee. You should call me teacher too.

IMO, sometime friends can learn from each other. there won't be any teacher-student relation issue and there won't be any lineage concern either.

If it's a small part you learn from someone , they are a training partner, not your teacher (even though they were teaching you at the time), IMO. For me to call someone my teacher/instructor, I'd have to study under them for a while. How long? I can't think of a specific cut-off.

As for your one-form question, that would depend upon the form. One of mine? Not even close. One that takes months to learn? Perhaps.

 

[Danny T]

See if this helps:

"We walked in, sat down, Obie came in with the twenty seven eight-by-ten
Colour glossy pictures with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back
Of each one, sat down. Man came in said, "All rise." We all stood up,
And Obie stood up with the twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy
Pictures, and the judge walked in sat down with a seeing eye dog, and he
Sat down, we sat down. Obie looked at the seeing eye dog, and then at the
Twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy pictures with circles and arrows
And a paragraph on the back of each one, and looked at the seeing eye dog.
And then at twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy pictures with circles
And arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one and began to cry,
'Cause Obie came to the realization that it was a typical case of American
Blind justice, and there wasn't nothing he could do about it, and the
Judge wasn't going to look at the twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy
Pictures with the circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each
One explaining what each one was to be used as evidence against us. And
We was fined $50 and had to pick up the garbage in the snow, but thats not
What I came to tell you about."

Alice's Restaurant by Arlo Guthrie

 

[Hyoho]

No. Just no.

You're once again insisting lineage means what you want it to mean. That may be what the closest word in Japanese would mean, and might be the closest concept for the Japanese. It is not, however, how the word is commonly used in the US. And since there have been folks from other English-speaking countries posting to this thread without issue, I have to assume the usage is similar there.

With the traditional licensing/trasmission certificates, lineage could mean what you refer to (the procession of head-of-style). Even there, in English, it could also refer to the chain of licensed instructors from the originator of the art to a given individual. Note that this is not about how the term would be used in Japan - there may be no truly equivalent term, as is often the case in translations - but about how the word is used in the English language.

As with other subjects that have arisen it again boils down to English. Japanese used the word 'Ha" which basically means family for lineage For example in the karate I did what is now called Tani-ha karate do, taught to me by Tani sensei. Originally Goju ryu

And yes JR 137 I was thinking of school lineage and not individual. Do I even consider that? Many Americans come to the UK looking for that like a lost puppy. I am descended from a French Knight and adopted into a Japanese Samurai family of the Nabeshima Han but who gives a damn.

To put it bluntly (and a lot of foreigners might not like this). Japanese use the word gaijin meaning outsider. This is not really race orientated. It just means anyone outside is just well.....................outside. Leave Japan and you will be taken off the meibo (practicing members list). So you can wax poetically about who you belong to but to Japanese? Judge for yourself.

Japanese use the word in katakana "intanashionaru". But make not mistake it does not mean the same as the English word international.

 

[Steve]

Hyoho, do you recognize that martial arts exist outside of Japan and Japanese culture?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Hyoho, do you recognize that martial arts exist outside of Japan and Japanese culture?

Not when everyone other than Japan sink.

 

[Hyoho]

Hyoho, do you recognize that martial arts exist outside of Japan and Japanese culture?

My teacher considered that future of M.A. lay outside Japan. But to do it we need to know what their culture is and how they tick

Let's just say that their concept as whole taking in consideration their attitude to foreign countries is different. You can sit next to two Japanese talking as if they are within a glass bubble visiting other countries with comments like "I am going out tonight to meet the foreigners". Needless to say Japanese that have lived outside think differently.

Personally, I do think the future lies outside Japan. Few people in Japan are even interested. My sensei taught me with what they described as a 'madoguchi' (A window to the world) with that very purpose. I owe it to them to hand on what they taught as long as I can do it.

Sorry if I have opened a can of worms.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

My teacher considered that future of M.A. lay outside Japan.

Personally, I do think the future lies outside Japan.

Given that

• martial arts are a universal feature of human culture and
• Japan makes up less than 2% of the world's population

perhaps a more precise statement would be that 98+% of the past, present, and future of martial arts lies outside Japan. What do you think?

But to do it we need to know what their culture is and how they tick

I'm not sure I know how to parse this sentence. Who is "we" and who are "they"? Are you saying that non-Japanese need to know what Japanese culture is? Or the other way around? In either case, how is this necessary for the future of martial arts which have no historical connection to Japan? Is it even necessary for arts which do have an historical connection to Japan but which are no longer Japanese?

Few people in Japan are even interested.

Even outside Japan, most people don't train martial arts, or if they do it's only for a short time as a passing hobby. Let's face it, we're all a bunch of oddballs no matter what country we're in.

I owe it to them to hand on what they taught as long as I can do it.

I can understand that. I've had a lot of people over the years who have been very generous in passing on their knowledge and experience to me. I intend to do the same for others for the rest of my life.

Sorry if I have opened a can of worms.

No can of worms, just some communication issues. In this thread and others you've sometimes made comments based on your experience with Japanese culture and martial arts as if they were universally applicable to arts which have nothing to do with Japan. That's why Steve asked the question you responded to.

 

[Hyoho]

Given that

• martial arts are a universal feature of human culture and
• Japan makes up less than 2% of the world's population

perhaps a more precise statement would be that 98+% of the past, present, and future of martial arts lies outside Japan. What do you think?


I'm not sure I know how to parse this sentence. Who is "we" and who are "they"? Are you saying that non-Japanese need to know what Japanese culture is? Or the other way around? In either case, how is this necessary for the future of martial arts which have no historical connection to Japan? Is it even necessary for arts which do have an historical connection to Japan but which are no longer Japanese?


Even outside Japan, most people don't train martial arts, or if they do it's only for a short time as a passing hobby. Let's face it, we're all a bunch of oddballs no matter what country we're in.


I can understand that. I've had a lot of people over the years who have been very generous in passing on their knowledge and experience to me. I intend to do the same for others for the rest of my life.


No can of worms, just some communication issues. In this thread and others you've sometimes made comments based on your experience with Japanese culture and martial arts as if they were universally applicable to arts which have nothing to do with Japan. That's why Steve asked the question you responded to.

To the best of my knowledge only 2% of Japanese practice. The majority of these are in education. Nippon Budokan defines Budo as a sport-like educational activity. and that is how it was re-established after WWll. Karate and such arts are an extreme minority.


Well as you said it's both if we want a better understanding. I guess I always say we. Japan is 'We" it's never I. "We in Japan". That is how we think. Again a language and cultural issue. I always consider 'we'. If people took as much time and trouble to study Japanese as they did the arts? The arts are intrinsically tied to the Japanese language in everything we do with both Confucian and Buddhist deeper meaning. Very easy to write one page describing one word in Japanese.

Lol. Even Japanese have said to me in the past, Why do you want to do a thing like that"?

It would be nice if it was universal but I see so may things written here that bear no resemblance to Japan although people seem to thing they do. It takes probably a minimum of ten years living in Japan to know where they are coming from. I know I am in minority. Many seem to think Japanese arts about self defence and attack and how to protect yourself but in actual fact that what it has grown into in West.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

To the best of my knowledge only 2% of Japanese practice. The majority of these are in education. Nippon Budokan defines Budo as a sport-like educational activity. and that is how it was re-established after WWll. Karate and such arts are an extreme minority.


Well as you said it's both if we want a better understanding. I guess I always say we. Japan is 'We" it's never I. "We in Japan". That is how we think. Again a language and cultural issue. I always consider 'we'. If people took as much time and trouble to study Japanese as they did the arts? The arts are intrinsically tied to the Japanese language in everything we do with both Confucian and Buddhist deeper meaning. Very easy to write one page describing one word in Japanese.

Lol. Even Japanese have said to me in the past, Why do you want to do a thing like that"?

It would be nice if it was universal but I see so may things written here that bear no resemblance to Japan although people seem to thing they do. It takes probably a minimum of ten years living in Japan to know where they are coming from. I know I am in minority. Many seem to think Japanese arts about self defence and attack and how to protect yourself but in actual fact that what it has grown into in West.

If that's what it has grown into in the West, some arts were Westernized in Japan. Nihon Goshin AIkido has been about self-defense since it's inception in Hokkaido in the 1940's. The founder put it in the name of the art.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

To the best of my knowledge only 2% of Japanese practice

That's probably not far off what it is in other countries. It's hard to find good statistics on it though. I did find one survey reporting about 5% of Americans reported practicing a martial art "at least once in the last year." I'd bet the percentage engaged in consistent practice is significantly lower, though.

Well as you said it's both if we want a better understanding. I guess I always say we.

I apologize, but I'm still having trouble following your meaning. Are you saying that both Japanese need to understand non-Japanese culture and non-Japanese need to understand Japanese culture? I guess I can see how that could be helpful for transmission of traditional Japanese arts to the rest of the world, but what does it have to do with the vast majority of martial arts which are not Japanese?

It would be nice if it was universal but I see so may things written here that bear no resemblance to Japan although people seem to thing they do.

Is this a response to my statement that "martial arts are a universal feature of human culture"?

Martial arts are a universal feature of human culture, but obviously Japanese martial arts are not universal. No one should expect the practice of Kali, Capoeira, Glima, Boxing, Savate, Choy Li Fut, Greco-Roman wrestling, Jeet Kune Do, Muay Thai, Bando, Western Fencing, Silat, or thousands of other non-Japanese arts to follow the specific culture of Japanese Budo.

Even most arts which have some historical connection to Japan have gone their own way, based on the local culture. BJJ, Sambo, and TKD have roots in Japanese arts, but they are not Japanese. That's pretty much what you would expect and there is nothing wrong with that.

Tae Kwon Do actually is a pretty instructive example of how the process works. The Okinawans took Chinese martial arts (particularly Fujian White Crane) and fused them with local traditions (Te) to form Okinawan Karate. The Japanese took Okinawan Karate, but put it through their own cultural filter to create systems of Japanese Karate which were visibly different from the Okinawan approach. The Koreans took (primarily) Japanese Karate systems and over time transformed them into a distinctly Korean art.

That does leave those systems of Japanese origin which are practiced worldwide but which are still identified as Japanese, for example Judo, Aikido, and Kendo. Certain elements of Japanese culture and tradition are taught alongside the technical aspects of these arts, but I'm sure those elements as grasped by most non-Japanese are minimal, fragmented, distorted, or outright incorrect in a large percentage of cases. With your background, you are in an excellent position to offer clarification of those elements for those who practice those arts and wish to better understand those parts of the tradition. It's just confusing when you make comments which seem to apply that perspective to martial arts as a whole.

 

[Steve]

My teacher considered that future of M.A. lay outside Japan. But to do it we need to know what their culture is and how they tick

Let's just say that their concept as whole taking in consideration their attitude to foreign countries is different. You can sit next to two Japanese talking as if they are within a glass bubble visiting other countries with comments like "I am going out tonight to meet the foreigners". Needless to say Japanese that have lived outside think differently.

Personally, I do think the future lies outside Japan. Few people in Japan are even interested. My sensei taught me with what they described as a 'madoguchi' (A window to the world) with that very purpose. I owe it to them to hand on what they taught as long as I can do it.

Sorry if I have opened a can of worms.

it took me a while to get that you actually don't distinguish between martial arts amd Japanese martial arts.

No can of worms for me, now that I get what where you're coming from, although you may want to bear in mind that there are non Japanese martial arts. And while some surely have an interest in adopting Japanese culture, many do not.

 

[Hyoho]

That's probably not far off what it is in other countries. It's hard to find good statistics on it though. I did find one survey reporting about 5% of Americans reported practicing a martial art "at least once in the last year." I'd bet the percentage engaged in consistent practice is significantly lower, though.


I apologize, but I'm still having trouble following your meaning. Are you saying that both Japanese need to understand non-Japanese culture and non-Japanese need to understand Japanese culture? I guess I can see how that could be helpful for transmission of traditional Japanese arts to the rest of the world, but what does it have to do with the vast majority of martial arts which are not Japanese?



Is this a response to my statement that "martial arts are a universal feature of human culture"?

Martial arts are a universal feature of human culture, but obviously Japanese martial arts are not universal. No one should expect the practice of Kali, Capoeira, Glima, Boxing, Savate, Choy Li Fut, Greco-Roman wrestling, Jeet Kune Do, Muay Thai, Bando, Western Fencing, Silat, or thousands of other non-Japanese arts to follow the specific culture of Japanese Budo.

Even most arts which have some historical connection to Japan have gone their own way, based on the local culture. BJJ, Sambo, and TKD have roots in Japanese arts, but they are not Japanese. That's pretty much what you would expect and there is nothing wrong with that.

Tae Kwon Do actually is a pretty instructive example of how the process works. The Okinawans took Chinese martial arts (particularly Fujian White Crane) and fused them with local traditions (Te) to form Okinawan Karate. The Japanese took Okinawan Karate, but put it through their own cultural filter to create systems of Japanese Karate which were visibly different from the Okinawan approach. The Koreans took (primarily) Japanese Karate systems and over time transformed them into a distinctly Korean art.

That does leave those systems of Japanese origin which are practiced worldwide but which are still identified as Japanese, for example Judo, Aikido, and Kendo. Certain elements of Japanese culture and tradition are taught alongside the technical aspects of these arts, but I'm sure those elements as grasped by most non-Japanese are minimal, fragmented, distorted, or outright incorrect in a large percentage of cases. With your background, you are in an excellent position to offer clarification of those elements for those who practice those arts and wish to better understand those parts of the tradition. It's just confusing when you make comments which seem to apply that perspective to martial arts as a whole.

Japans child population has dropped around 90% since around 1990. I saw a time when I would travel around teaching Budo at schools Uni and Police Dojo because there were not enough teachers. The reason for this of course was the banning of Budo after WWll. Over 850.000 people in the prefecture and just four of us had to field a teachers team in our age group when there should be five. What was an intake of 400 new students into high school in 2005 dropped to 35. The karate dojo at the university had just 4 students and no sensei. An American friend who does Iaijutsu went to watch last years Prefectural iaido championships. Only three turned up.

For sure I have more students in the Western countries than the Hombu has in Japan

In answer to your next comment. I was referring to Japanese classical arts only. My apologies if I did not make myself more clear.

As to the ones mentioned at the bottom. I would totally agree There already have been changes that the Japanese do not identify with that have not produced good results.

Like many things religion, politics whatever in MA some people tend to take the bits that suit them and disregards the rest. In some cases that may lead to improvement, but in others it just creates a watered down mishmash of results.

 

[Hyoho]

If that's what it has grown into in the West, some arts were Westernized in Japan. Nihon Goshin AIkido has been about self-defense since it's inception in Hokkaido in the 1940's. The founder put it in the name of the art.

To my mind Aikido always has been about self defense.

What I meant was you just don't see places in Japan where people go to learn to defend themselves. It's "a way" and a black belt is a qualified beginner in that way.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Japans child population has dropped around 90% since around 1990

What age range are you including as child population? From what I can find online, the cohort aged 0-14 in Japan dropped from 18.2% of the population in 1990 to 12.4% in 2017. (Or from roughly 22.5 million individuals in 1990 to 15.72 million today, given the total population of the time.) That's a pretty sharp decline, but closer to 30% than 90%. Did you have a more limited age cohort in mind?

The karate dojo at the university had just 4 students and no sensei. An American friend who does Iaijutsu went to watch last years Prefectural iaido championships. Only three turned up.

Do you think this is related to the demographic shifts or to a drop in general interest in martial arts or to a drop in interest in those particular martial arts?

For sure I have more students in the Western countries than the Hombu has in Japan

Is that for Kendo or for your Koryu students? (Also, can you remind me which ryu those are? I know you do Hyoho Niten Ichi-ryu, right? Don't you do one or two others as well?)

I wonder if one factor is the human tendency to glamorize arts from a foreign culture. To many Westerners, there is a definite mystique to the Koryu arts which may not be there for the typical Japanese. On the flip side, Catch Wrestling went nearly (not entirely) extinct in the West during the period that the art was being spread in Japan to professional wrestlers by Karl Gotch and Billy Robinson.

 

[Hyoho]

What age range are you including as child population? From what I can find online, the cohort aged 0-14 in Japan dropped from 18.2% of the population in 1990 to 12.4% in 2017. (Or from roughly 22.5 million individuals in 1990 to 15.72 million today, given the total population of the time.) That's a pretty sharp decline, but closer to 30% than 90%. Did you have a more limited age cohort in mind?

Do you think this is related to the demographic shifts or to a drop in general interest in martial arts or to a drop in interest in those particular martial arts?

Is that for Kendo or for your Koryu students? (Also, can you remind me which ryu those are? I know you do Hyoho Niten Ichi-ryu, right? Don't you do one or two others as well?)

I wonder if one factor is the human tendency to glamorize arts from a foreign culture. To many Westerners, there is a definite mystique to the Koryu arts which may not be there for the typical Japanese. On the flip side, Catch Wrestling went nearly (not entirely) extinct in the West during the period that the art was being spread in Japan to professional wrestlers by Karl Gotch and Billy Robinson.

I am going on regular staff meetings and seminars of high schools. My kindergarden if anything showed an increase in members. Thinking back those figures might have applied to my prefecture only.

I am not really sure about karate population throughout out the rest of Japan. Nearly all the people I met live in Okinawa.

I taught Kendo in Japan. I have not coached any foreign teams for some years now. I used to do a bit in Korea and Denmark. I am also an Iaido Yudansha. I gave up on Dan grades at 42 to concentrate on Koryu. HNIR Menkyo - 12th Shihan of Choken Battojutsu Kageryu.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

HNIR Menkyo - 12th Shihan of Choken Battojutsu Kageryu.

It must be kind of strange as a non-Japanese person having the responsibility for the preservation of a piece of Japanese cultural legacy - especially with what you've mentioned about the common Japanese attitude towards foreigners. If you ever wanted to write something about the journey and experiences which lead you to that point I'm sure it would be fascinating reading.

 

[Hyoho]

I remember the day when everyone used to openly stare. people would come up to me with my shopping basket to see what the foreigner ate for food. Same stuff of course. A good friend who arrived with the occupational forces said everyone would actually cross the road to the other side when he walked along a path.

People used to openly stare. people would come up to me with my shopping basket to see what the foreigner ate for food.It has been about indoctrination about people they have never met. Much the same as Westerners have been taught about "The terrible Japs".

Monbusho (Japan Education) Gaimusho (cultural office) and Bunkacho Cultural office introduced a program after I had arrived aimed at breaking these barriers. It was under the auspices of teaching English to kids but its purpose was to get Japanese used to foreigners.

They really don't want to change that much. Did a seminar some years ago in the UK and was put in a beautiful hotel. Four poster beds, A breakfast buffet spread fit for a king. I managed one morning to sample it. After that it was an early morning call and sit on the floor on newspaper in bedroom to eat Japanese noodles, seaweed and rice.