This guy would kick 90% of BlackBelts *** **WARNING -- EXPLICIT CONTENT**

[MJS]

Yeah but you wind up with pretty much the same problem. We say no or the bartender says no and you still wind up out the front punching on with the guy.

Meanwhile the patron is in there to get drunk. They pre drink before they go out. They smuggle drinks in,hide when they are drunk,get their friends to buy the drinks for them. If they get caught they will argue and fight to stay in. Once they are out they will trespass to sneak back in.
It is a scenario that is about as us them as you can make a scenario.

And in a fight it is a pretty even match. We are not protected by law do not have defensive tools and in gener have to fight people without hurting them.

All things that are very possible. However, the bouncers in my area, aren't there to trade punches with some drunk idiot. If the drunk idiot, is still being an idiot after being removed, then the cops are called, and they're arrested.

 

[MJS]

I've studied from a lot of instructors who told me to kick someone in the knee and break it as a primary means of self-defense but can't remember anyone ever telling me they've used it in a real scenario to that effect. My thought is you can get some pain there but doing structural damage is an unlikely outcome in a real encounter--and with big, drunk guys esp., I'm looking to do things that must make them stop, not things that make them hurt.

Me too! It's amazing how much fallacy is floating around in dojos today.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I've studied from a lot of instructors who told me to kick someone in the knee and break it as a primary means of self-defense but can't remember anyone ever telling me they've used it in a real scenario to that effect.

My instructor told me the same thing, then he told me about when he kicked back on someone's knee who tried to grab him (in a real scenario) and it worked. Must be something to it.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

UFC guys don't side kick to the knee because fighting is how they make their living. Doing that on purpose is a sure fire way to make sure everyone steers clear of you and you starve to death. They hurt each other, but the goal isn't to put the other guy through surgery and months of PT.

I kind of wish people would refrain from making up "just so" stories to explain things in fields where they don't have knowledge or experience.

The idea that professional MMA fighters have without discussion decided en masse to refrain from using a winning technique that is perfectly legal under the rules, because they are afraid they might injure their opponents, is frankly ludicrous. I know and have trained with a number of MMA fighters. Most of them are pretty nice guys and don't especially want to injure their opponents. That said, they do want to win and they will do what it takes within the rules they are fighting under to make that happen.

There are plenty of MMA fighters who have proven their willingness and ability to break legs (and other body parts) in the cage. They have not ended up unable to find opponents and starving.

There are several high-level fighters who sometimes use side kicks to the knee. (Anderson Silva and Jon Jones come to mind.)

The fact is, against a well-conditioned, well-trained fighter in a good fighting stance it is extremely hard to hyperextend the knee with a side kick or to get an angle which would allow major damage. That's not to say a side kick to the knee isn't a valid self-defense technique, just that it's very low percentage against a professional fighter.

Gnarlie posted a cool video of Andy Hug finishing a fight with a spin kick to the knee. It looks impressive, but if you watch the fight you realize that Hug had already severely damaged his opponent's knee with round kicks to the leg. His opponent could barely stand on the leg at that point and the spin kick was just the finishing touch.

 

[Pwen Arye]

Bingo ! Because they are afraid and psyched out.

To bad that there wasnt some Bill Gatesesque black belt there to show them.

I had a response to this thread written out, but after reading the OP's one sentence arguments it's pretty obvious this is a troll post. If you want to talk about this like a big boy bring better debating skills. If not, then can someone please ban him?

 

[ballen0351]

I've studied from a lot of instructors who told me to kick someone in the knee and break it as a primary means of self-defense but can't remember anyone ever telling me they've used it in a real scenario to that effect. My thought is you can get some pain there but doing structural damage is an unlikely outcome in a real encounter--and with big, drunk guys esp., I'm looking to do things that must make them stop, not things that make them hurt.

You dont need to physically break anything to be effective
joints bend 1 way. You force it to go any other way far enough the big fella wont be able to put weight on it not due to pain but just structurally it wont support it with out buckling. Or a move I use alot at ork is to hit the back of the knee in the bend and drive the knee with my foot into the ground, use my knee of same leg into the hip and forearm on back of neck driving upper body down as well. Doing that on a hard surface will take the fight out of alot of people.

 

[ballen0351]

The fact is, against a well-conditioned, well-trained fighter in a good fighting stance it is extremely hard to hyperextend the knee with a side kick or to get an angle which would allow major damage. That's not to say a side kick to the knee isn't a valid self-defense technique, just that it's very low percentage against a professional fighter.

.

THIS is the point here. This guy isnt a trained well conditioned fighter. Every technique will be harder to pull off against a trained fight. A drunk brawler is NOT a well trained fighter

 

[Tony Dismukes]

THIS is the point here. This guy isnt a trained well conditioned fighter. Every technique will be harder to pull off against a trained fight. A drunk brawler is NOT a well trained fighter

I totally agree. I was responding to bluewaveschool's assertion that UFC fighters were refraining from using side kicks to the knee because they would hurt their opponents.

As far as the guy in the original video, eh. You could probably do some damage to him with a well-placed powerful kick to the knee. The trick is doing it without eating one of those big right hands in the process. It's easy to dismiss guys like that as fat, sloppy, and untrained. Tank Abbott showed that it's possible for a fat, sloppy, untrained guy to be dangerous even to experienced martial artists.

I'm not saying this guy is necessarily as tough as a Tank Abbott. I am saying that judging from the relaxation and accuracy in his punches he has probably been in a lot of fights and is mentally comfortable being in a brawl. I try never to underestimate guys like that or think that just because I have a lot more technique that they can't be dangerous.

 

[mook jong man]

In Wing Chun we call these kicks to the knee or shin , low heel kicks.
They are one of the first kicks you learn , they can be used in conjunction with hand striking and trapping the hands.

They are fast , powerful , and can cause quite a lot of pain when the kicker has shoes on.
It doesn't have to break the leg , shatter the knee cap or even sprain the leg.

It only has to cause pain , a momentary distraction so that you can get in and finish them off with your hands.
Get a hammer and give yourself a tap at the top of the shin and you will have some idea of what it feels like.
Or walk into the edge of a low coffee table.

I think people are imagining that the technique is used in isolation and then you stand back and see what the effect has or has not been.
It is not that at all , it is always swiftly followed by chain punching or a rapid barrage of various types of low kicks.

But it is also not out of the realm of possibility that the person may be dropped from the low heel kick , you just don't bank on it , always follow up straight away with more techniques.

 

[ballen0351]

I totally agree. I was responding to bluewaveschool's assertion that UFC fighters were refraining from using side kicks to the knee because they would hurt their opponents.

Yeah I was just thinking that samee thing when I read your post it was a good point.

As far as the guy in the original video, eh. You could probably do some damage to him with a well-placed powerful kick to the knee. The trick is doing it without eating one of those big right hands in the process. It's easy to dismiss guys like that as fat, sloppy, and untrained. Tank Abbott showed that it's possible for a fat, sloppy, untrained guy to be dangerous even to experienced martial artists.

I'm not saying this guy is necessarily as tough as a Tank Abbott. I am saying that judging from the relaxation and accuracy in his punches he has probably been in a lot of fights and is mentally comfortable being in a brawl. I try never to underestimate guys like that or think that just because I have a lot more technique that they can't be dangerous.

Tank Abbots not a great example he wrestled for years and was a Junior College all American, He also trained in boxing and although he was overweight he was not really sloppy and fat he worked out and trained.
I also didnt think the guy in the OP was very accurate in his punches most missed or did no real damage. It looked like his buddy did more damage sucker punching people deal with the big guy. Ill watch the clip again maybe I dont remember it right but I remember only a few good hits the rest were just sloppy off balance hay makers

 

[arnisador]

You dont need to physically break anything to be effective
joints bend 1 way. You force it to go any other way far enough the big fella wont be able to put weight on it not due to pain but just structurally it wont support it with out buckling. Or a move I use alot at ork is to hit the back of the knee in the bend and drive the knee with my foot into the ground, use my knee of same leg into the hip and forearm on back of neck driving upper body down as well. Doing that on a hard surface will take the fight out of alot of people.

No argument that kicking the knee can work, but I was told many times by karate instructors esp. that their side kick would "break" the knee and that "A man that can't stand, can't fight" as one often put it to me. I think the structural damage aspect is often oversold...but that damage (disruption) to their structure (stance) is often viable. But I just don't see the parade of people being carted away by ambulances bc they physically cannot stand after a fight due to permanent damage to the knee.

 

[ballen0351]

No argument that kicking the knee can work, but I was told many times by karate instructors esp. that their side kick would "break" the knee and that "A man that can't stand, can't fight" as one often put it to me. I think the structural damage aspect is often oversold...but that damage (disruption) to their structure (stance) is often viable. But I just don't see the parade of people being carted away by ambulances bc they physically cannot stand after a fight due to permanent damage to the knee.

Fair enough I've never heard any of my teachers tell me that so I cant say. Ive been taught the knee kick as a set up to be used in combo to end a fight quickly. As someone else said just kicking once and stopping to watch may be a bad idea. But a poweful knee strike will do enough damage that they may not be carted away in an a,bo but they will def be limping and stepping gingerly. Ive been nursing a knee injury now for about 6 weeks it suck and all I did was twist it in a pot hole

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Yeah I was just thinking that samee thing when I read your post it was a good point.

Tank Abbots not a great example he wrestled for years and was a Junior College all American, He also trained in boxing and although he was overweight he was not really sloppy and fat he worked out and trained.
I also didnt think the guy in the OP was very accurate in his punches most missed or did no real damage. It looked like his buddy did more damage sucker punching people deal with the big guy. Ill watch the clip again maybe I dont remember it right but I remember only a few good hits the rest were just sloppy off balance hay makers

An important lesson there. If for some reason you have to be involved in a mass melee and can't leave the situation, you're much better off being the guy who is taking people out opportunistically from behind than the guy who is squaring off exchanging punches.

 

[ballen0351]

An important lesson there. If for some reason you have to be involved in a mass melee and can't leave the situation, you're much better off being the guy who is taking people out opportunistically from behind than the guy who is squaring off exchanging punches.

Which is what I though was odd the bouncers were going on the guy one on one. All the bouncers I know work in teams and I know for a fact you mess with me Im calling friends

 

[jks9199]

Folks, let's back off the shots and labels of "troll." Don't think the guy is going to be productive or drive you nuts... don't view the tread, OK. RTM posts that we should know about, and let the staff handle 'em.

Attention All Users:

Please keep the converstaons polite and respectful.

jks9199
Asst. Administrator

 

[RTKDCMB]

Attention All Users:

Please keep the converstaons polite and respectful.

It's a pity that has to be said so often.

 

[geezer]

It's a pity that has to be said so often.

On the other hand, I'm glad we remind each other before things start to get out of hand and keep the atmosphere of this forum so much better than on some other places. Now I shall make a very profound contribution to this thread, one I learned in about 5th grade.

"Rah rah ree, kick 'em in the knee."
"Rah rah rass, kick 'em in the ...other knee"

That said, most of the time I prefer to keep both my feet on the ground, especially if facing a big strong guy who can knock you down.

 

[RTKDCMB]

On the other hand, I'm glad we remind each other before things start to get out of hand and keep the atmosphere of this forum so much better than on some other places. Now I shall make a very profound contribution to this thread, one I learned in about 5th grade.

"Rah rah ree, kick 'em in the knee."
"Rah rah rass, kick 'em in the ...other knee"

That said, most of the time I prefer to keep both my feet on the ground, especially if facing a big strong guy who can knock you down.

Yes better to be on the ground than in your mouth.

 

[blindsage]

And you can still lose.

But really the biggest example that works for this discussion is Kimbo Slice. He's a scary dude, but his fight record against people with little to no training is really high, versus his fight record against people with training. Even with training, even when he wins, he's a lot less impressive than he was against street brawlers. Not that I want to fight him.

 

[drop bear]

No argument that kicking the knee can work, but I was told many times by karate instructors esp. that their side kick would "break" the knee and that "A man that can't stand, can't fight" as one often put it to me. I think the structural damage aspect is often oversold...but that damage (disruption) to their structure (stance) is often viable. But I just don't see the parade of people being carted away by ambulances bc they physically cannot stand after a fight due to permanent damage to the knee.

Which was the line that a lot of the knee kicking posts on this thread seemed to be taking.