The value of kata and basics.

[MJS]

First off I gotta ask those that think kata is useless this question:

Why do you think old karateka practiced kata?

(Please don’t give me the canned answer "it was a form of shadow boxing" )

Do you think they would honestly practice something that had no value?

Do you think they were just plain old stupid and couldn’t fight?



What kata is/does:

Kata is an encyclopedia of collected techniques that were put together by one or several people through years of experience in actual fights.

A person would find a technique that worked and save it, maybe find another and save it as well. After a while maybe compare "notes" on techniques that worked with people of the same family or village. Later these techniques possibly got to be more than one could remember separately therefore in order to remember them all they were put into some sort of pattern or sequence in order to better remember them.
In some cases these were patterned into a dance like pattern. In Okinawa there is a dance called the "meikata dance" which looks like a karate kata and many people consider it to be one.

This was actually a good idea if you think about it since people can remember patterns and sequence better than individual bits of scattered information.

Why do some kata moves not look like fighting techniques?

As stated above kata are kind of "notes" if you will and as with written notes karate "notes" are often abbreviated as well. Example: In Naihanchi Shodan about the 10th move in the kata can be a counter and strike to the face or it can be a rear naked choke as seen in many UFC type competitions......depending on your needs. Those of you that know the proper version of this kata should be able to pick up on what I just described.

This is were it takes a bit of skill and preservation to "read" the "notes" of kata. Sometimes the moves in kata can be backwards to the way they are executed, sometimes they are what is being done to you, what you are doing to them, sometimes a strike can be a block and a block can be a strike...........and so on.........like I said....it’s not east to read kata.

Are the techniques in kata done in the same sequence as the kata is performed?

Hell no.

Kata techniques can be mixed and matched..........I take that back......they SHOULD be mixed and matched. Anyone that tells you kata self-defense techniques are done in the same sequence as the kata is performed is a dumb ***.

Will only practicing kata help you win in a fight?

Hell no.

You need to study the kata and THEN apply the techniques you have discovered/learned and put them into some sort of realistic training drill so that you can become proficient at them. They need to be done with a bit of realism and control at first then sped up to more realism and more control as you progress. You can’t go from crawling to a full run........you need to learn to stand then walk first.


Lastly...........Is kata and it's training methods and purpose grossly misunderstood by most people that practice it?
Hell yes!

Very good post Sir. I've been doing kata for a long time myself, and yes, as I've said before, everything has its place in the arts. Yes, there are hidden techs. in the kata, which can be used in reali life application. However, two things come to my mind here. First, its important to make sure that the person doing the kata understands whats going on and if they dont, then they need to have a resource to go to. Now, what if that resource is not able to provide an answer? As I've given my kata discussion before, it goes like this.

Student- "Sir, what is this move in the kata doing?"

Inst.- "Well.............because that is the way its done!"

Not all instructors can provide that to their students, which IMO is a shame.

The second thing is that, like all things should be practiced, making sure there is aliveness and resistance. We can do a kata all day long, but if the person is not doing it on someone, then all of those moves are useless, because they will not be getting the same feel as if they had someone IFO them.

Again, I'm not against kata, though it may sound like that. I've done Kenpo katas as well as the empty hand and stick kata that are found in Modern Arnis. They do have value, but the person doing them needs to understand them.

Mike

 

[RRouuselot]

Very good post Sir. I've been doing kata for a long time myself, and yes, as I've said before, everything has its place in the arts. Yes, there are hidden techs. in the kata, which can be used in reali life application. However, two things come to my mind here. First, its important to make sure that the person doing the kata understands whats going on and if they dont, then they need to have a resource to go to. Now, what if that resource is not able to provide an answer? As I've given my kata discussion before, it goes like this.

Student- "Sir, what is this move in the kata doing?"

Inst.- "Well.............because that is the way its done!"

Not all instructors can provide that to their students, which IMO is a shame.

The second thing is that, like all things should be practiced, making sure there is aliveness and resistance. We can do a kata all day long, but if the person is not doing it on someone, then all of those moves are useless, because they will not be getting the same feel as if they had someone IFO them.

Again, I'm not against kata, though it may sound like that. I've done Kenpo katas as well as the empty hand and stick kata that are found in Modern Arnis. They do have value, but the person doing them needs to understand them.

Mike

I agree.

I equivocate someone that practices kata (or anything) without understanding or getting proper instruction in it to be the same as someone who eats a photo of food and not the real thing....... waste of time and not very filling...........

 

[Flatlander]

I agree.

I equivocate someone that practices kata (or anything) without understanding or getting proper instruction in it to be the same as someone who eats a photo of food and not the real thing....... waste of time and not very filling...........

That's about as clear of an analogy as I've seen on the subject.

 

[hedgehogey]

That is all I was pointing out, at least from my set of definitions... Whether it is one technique or a dozen, we all practice throwing techniques in the empty air. When we link several techniques together and pass that combination on to another "generation" of fighters, we have "created" a form that communicates information from teacher to student.

But then a lot of people tend to miss the point and assume "We must do this the exact way sensei does! Is only way to become good!".

Well, bear in mind though that a typical kata isn't intended to be done from start to finish on one opponent, but is actually a set of combinations, engagements against one or more opponents, linked together through some common theme.

Then why do them all in the predefined sequence of combos in the first place?

Oh, all you BJJ guys are incredibly sensitive... Especially when between the legs of your partner... :supcool:

*Sassy, girly tone* Five years ago called, it wants it's grappling=sex jokes back. *obnoxious head wiggling and finger snapping*

Not useless, but like any other aspect of combative training, it has to be kept in perspective. I learned a lot from competing, lessons that I continue to learn from today. However, were I to take it as something it wasn't, I'd end up being just as bad as most Bullshidoka running amok in the world...

AMOK! Yes that's exactly it! We bring chaos! Destruction! Itchy rashes! Bullshidoka are the end of martial arts!

Competition is fine. But it isn't reality, just a reasonable facsimilie thereof. It is a slice of life with limitations, a safety net where one typically doesn't exist. I'd compete again, but I'm too lazy to sit around for a few hours waiting to get my name called so I can fight some schmuck for no reason. I'd rather beat on my training partners instead!

What kind of competition did you do?

I'd say that the mobility of striking (i.e. being able to move away from the opponent, putting distance and obstacles between you and he) is one of the primary strengths that puts it above grappling when dealing with multiples.

There are several counterarguements I thought of immediately. But it doesn't matter, because it's ALL THEORETICAL. Do you understand that? Grappling or striking being safer on teh str33t is nothing but conjecture! So it doesn't matter what either of us say or think, until we see some evidence.

And we are back to the definition game... Grappling means different things to different people. When I speak of grappling, I am referring to the wrestling aspect, ground fighting, rolling. If I speak of joint locks, I say joint locks, I say throws when I refer to throws. Grappling, to me, is the mount, guard, etc., techniques executed from a non-standing position and in such close proximity to the opponent you can feel his heartbeat on some part of your body.

That's GROUNDFIGHTING, a part, but not the only part, of grappling. Grappling, according to dictionary.com:

1. A struggle or contest in which the participants attempt to clutch or grip each other.

Anytime you grab your opponent, you are grappling!

The Dog Brothers are one of the greatest examples of how "living" martial arts develop... Without a real conflict, everything else is just so much conjecture. I'm not saying that joint locks and throws are useless against weapons; quite the contrary. I'm saying that I wouldn't want to end up in a rolling situation with an adversary armed with a knife... Ick.

It seems the dog brothers would. It also seems a dominant grappling position is the best place to be if that happens.

Of course it's kindof a pointless discussion, considering that 99% of all shank victims never see the knife coming. If that kindof situation comes up, don't think striking or grappling will save you. In all probability you will be snuck up on and shanked before you even realize anything's happened. Trying to "Train" for that would only lead to unhealthy fear and paranoia.

 

[Matt Stone]

Here are some drawings of the move I mentioned from Naihanchi Shodan.
Look at numbers 17 and 18.

http://www.linacre.ox.ac.uk/soc_pages/karate/pages/Naihanchi/naipart2.htm

Now I have two questions for anyone that is interested.

1) Why is the head turned to the side?

2) Why is the leg lifted?

In #17, from a rear mount the hand and arm position mimic a variant of a rear naked choke (more of a blood choke than an air choke, as the arms are squeezing the sides of the neck rather than the larynx).

in #18, that could be a rear mount again with you on the ground and the opponent in front of you, while your legs (both, not just the one that is lifted in the kata) are hooking into the inner thighs of your opponent.

In #17, from a standing position behind the opponent while choking, then #18 kicking his knees out to make him fall into the choke.

How's that? Am I close?

 

[Flatlander]

aaahhhhh! Nice interpretation! I hadn't seen that in there!

 

[Matt Stone]

But then a lot of people tend to miss the point and assume "We must do this the exact way sensei does! Is only way to become good!".

I agree entirely... They mimic what they see and never ask questions because their teacher encourages the mystique of the "dance of death" a la Count Dante. But the good schools that teach forms as well as the ways in which to interpret them tend not to be overly domineering... Certainly there is an "accepted" version of the form, and that must be learned for continuity's sake, but individual interpretation and study is encouraged.

Then why do them all in the predefined sequence of combos in the first place?

Look at Robert's post upthread. I can't really say it any better than he did.

*Sassy, girly tone* Five years ago called, it wants it's grappling=sex jokes back. *obnoxious head wiggling and finger snapping*

Nicely played... :ultracool

AMOK! Yes that's exactly it! We bring chaos! Destruction! Itchy rashes! Bullshidoka are the end of martial arts!

I guess by "bullshidoka" I meant not to refer to the esteemed members of www.bullshido.net (of which I am a member), but rather to those against whom we Bullshido members fight who are dead set on cheapening what we do...

What kind of competition did you do?

Back in the old days (yeah, right... late 1980s and early 1990s) I did AAU CMA tournaments, local open and invitational tournaments, mainly striking/point tournaments (though I have yet to participate in a point tournament where I didn't go home with rather livid bruises covering my torso - it may be "point," but the only time excessive contact was called was when your opponent got knocked down and almost didn't get back up). I won some, I lost some. 'Nuff said.

There are several counterarguements I thought of immediately. But it doesn't matter, because it's ALL THEORETICAL. Do you understand that?

Certainly. I agree completely, too, BTW. All I was discussing was theory... Without getting on the mat, we can't do any more than that...

Of course it's kindof a pointless discussion, considering that 99% of all shank victims never see the knife coming. If that kindof situation comes up, don't think striking or grappling will save you. In all probability you will be snuck up on and shanked before you even realize anything's happened. Trying to "Train" for that would only lead to unhealthy fear and paranoia.

Amen. I recently learned about the Manson knife drill, and after that my opinions on what self-defense really is is a little different than before... I learned some interesting things during a lecture by a CO from Portland based on police and corrections stats and training. Scary, scary stuff, but eye opening to say th e least.

 

[Matt Stone]

Very good post Sir. I've been doing kata for a long time myself, and yes, as I've said before, everything has its place in the arts.

I am a husband, father, brother and soldier. I have a lot of different ways that I need to look at my training - can I protect myself, my family, my fellow soldiers, and can I defeat my opponent or kill my enemy before he defeats or kills me?

I have to look at as many things as I can when I approach my art... I condition myself with kettlebell lifting and Russian weight training exercises. I practice qigong to develop my qi and my mind. I practice my forms, I study them and practice their applications. I engage fellow students in free fighting situations every so often to see how well I am able to put it all together. I discuss things (like here on MT and elsewhere) so I can see if my theories flow together and to have their deficiencies pointed out. I train with other people in other arts to get a look at how they do business and to allow me the chance to look at my art with "outside eyes." I am an accomplished marksman with rifles, machine guns, pistols and other weapons systems. I have trained in archaic weapons (stick, knife, sword, staff) as well. I practice in my training uniform, my military uniform (with equipment and without), and street clothes so I know what will work regardless of my clothing. I train indoors and outdoors, on grass and pavement, so I am aware of environmental considerations as well.

All so I can keep myself "real" and oriented not on fluff, but on the meat of the matter.

And I still find that forms have their place in training, just like everything else has its place and use.

 

[Kevin Walker]

Here are some drawings of the move I mentioned from Naihanchi Shodan.
Look at numbers 17 and 18.

http://www.linacre.ox.ac.uk/soc_pages/karate/pages/Naihanchi/naipart2.htm

Now I have two questions for anyone that is interested.

1) Why is the head turned to the side?

2) Why is the leg lifted?

Hi,

I'll bet you a dollar that like so many times before, the artist is not a practitioner and made a drawing error!

 

[Flatlander]

I'll gladly take that bet, why not make it 5 large?

 

[RRouuselot]

In #17, from a rear mount the hand and arm position mimic a variant of a rear naked choke (more of a blood choke than an air choke, as the arms are squeezing the sides of the neck rather than the larynx).

in #18, that could be a rear mount again with you on the ground and the opponent in front of you, while your legs (both, not just the one that is lifted in the kata) are hooking into the inner thighs of your opponent.

In #17, from a standing position behind the opponent while choking, then #18 kicking his knees out to make him fall into the choke.

How's that? Am I close?

BINGO!!!
Right on the money.
You got the leg question right. Would you like to go for the Bonus round and the $65,000 question? Why is the head turned?

 

[Matt Stone]

Why is the head turned?

My guesses are:

a) to prevent the opponent from doing a rearward headbutt into your face as you choke him;

b) to show the defense against the choke (turning into the choke);

c) to call for your friends to beat this guy's a$$.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head, though...

 

[DeLamar.J]

First off I gotta ask those that think kata is useless this question:

Why do you think old karateka practiced kata?

(Please don’t give me the canned answer "it was a form of shadow boxing" )

Do you think they would honestly practice something that had no value?

Do you think they were just plain old stupid and couldn’t fight?



What kata is/does:

Kata is an encyclopedia of collected techniques that were put together by one or several people through years of experience in actual fights.

A person would find a technique that worked and save it, maybe find another and save it as well. After a while maybe compare "notes" on techniques that worked with people of the same family or village. Later these techniques possibly got to be more than one could remember separately therefore in order to remember them all they were put into some sort of pattern or sequence in order to better remember them.
In some cases these were patterned into a dance like pattern. In Okinawa there is a dance called the "meikata dance" which looks like a karate kata and many people consider it to be one.

This was actually a good idea if you think about it since people can remember patterns and sequence better than individual bits of scattered information.

Why do some kata moves not look like fighting techniques?

As stated above kata are kind of "notes" if you will and as with written notes karate "notes" are often abbreviated as well. Example: In Naihanchi Shodan about the 10th move in the kata can be a counter and strike to the face or it can be a rear naked choke as seen in many UFC type competitions......depending on your needs. Those of you that know the proper version of this kata should be able to pick up on what I just described.

This is were it takes a bit of skill and preservation to "read" the "notes" of kata. Sometimes the moves in kata can be backwards to the way they are executed, sometimes they are what is being done to you, what you are doing to them, sometimes a strike can be a block and a block can be a strike...........and so on.........like I said....it’s not east to read kata.

Are the techniques in kata done in the same sequence as the kata is performed?

Hell no.

Kata techniques can be mixed and matched..........I take that back......they SHOULD be mixed and matched. Anyone that tells you kata self-defense techniques are done in the same sequence as the kata is performed is a dumb ***.

Will only practicing kata help you win in a fight?

Hell no.

You need to study the kata and THEN apply the techniques you have discovered/learned and put them into some sort of realistic training drill so that you can become proficient at them. They need to be done with a bit of realism and control at first then sped up to more realism and more control as you progress. You can’t go from crawling to a full run........you need to learn to stand then walk first.


Lastly...........Is kata and it's training methods and purpose grossly misunderstood by most people that practice it?
Hell yes!

I enjoyed your post sir. :ultracool

 

[RRouuselot]

My guesses are:

a) to prevent the opponent from doing a rearward headbutt into your face as you choke him;

b) to show the defense against the choke (turning into the choke);

c) to call for your friends to beat this guy's a$$.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head, though...

Well Matt-san you 100% right! (C I am not too sure about though)
Pretty good for not really being a "kurati" guy.
Actually I was hoping for more input from some of my fellow Karateka on here though.:idunno:

 

[RRouuselot]

I enjoyed your post sir. :ultracool

Thanks, but as much as I would like to take credit for it I can't since 99% of what is on there came from my seniors in the dojo that have trained harder and longer than myself. I was only lucky enough to be on the receiving end of their wisdom. Best way to train in the dojo.........keep eyes and ears open, mouth shut, only open it to ask a question.......

 

[Matt Stone]

Well Matt-san you 100% right! (C I am not too sure about though)
Pretty good for not really being a "kurati" guy.
Actually I was hoping for more input from some of my fellow Karateka on here though.:idunno:

Gomen, ne? How about some interpretations for the first 5 or so techniques from Naihanchi Shodan? That should set a few thinking caps on fire...

 

[hedgehogey]

Back in the old days (yeah, right... late 1980s and early 1990s) I did AAU CMA tournaments, local open and invitational tournaments, mainly striking/point tournaments (though I have yet to participate in a point tournament where I didn't go home with rather livid bruises covering my torso - it may be "point," but the only time excessive contact was called was when your opponent got knocked down and almost didn't get back up). I won some, I lost some. 'Nuff said.

No offense, but anytime there's a possibility of "Excessive contact" call, it's not full contact. It's really not the same as a muay thai or vale tudo match.

I did a point sparring tournament as a kid. I won but it put me off MA for a while.

Amen. I recently learned about the Manson knife drill, and after that my opinions on what self-defense really is is a little different than before... I learned some interesting things during a lecture by a CO from Portland based on police and corrections stats and training. Scary, scary stuff, but eye opening to say th e least.

Here's something i've learned from being in a few situations where I feared getting shanked from behind (not to ****wave, but I grew up in a lower class neighborhood):

The ONLY reason you should fear getting cut is if you did something shady. If you've got no beefs, your likelihood of taking it in the gut is not high enough to worry about, even in the grimiest places.

If ya being robbed, GIVE HIM YOUR DAMN WALLET.

"Awareness" comes naturally to us proletariat. "Awareness skills" are mainly something for the bourgoise.

The most important thing you can do if you find yourself in the ghetto is *don't stand out*. Adopt the local dress and slang. Don't look scared. Don't BE scared. Unfortuenately most RBSD programs actually make the student more fearful and paranoid, making them even bigger targets!

The programs tend to present to their emotionally vulnerable audience of white people a horrible, mostly black "enemy". This just reinforces inherent racism, and turns potential friends into adversaries.

 

[Matt Stone]

No offense, but anytime there's a possibility of "Excessive contact" call, it's not full contact. It's really not the same as a muay thai or vale tudo match.

Never said it was. I just said I competed, but would rather beat on my training partners than do so any longer.

I'm 35, turning 36 later this year. I'm on active duty in the military, have 2 herniated discs and a wife that dotes on me and my training injuries as it is. She has told me flat out that were I to participate in full contact, san shou, etc., I'd come home to an empty house... She wouldn't divorce me, but her point is that she disapproves of my attending because she doesn't want me to run the risk of getting hurt. I agree with her.

Now, if I was 25, not 35, and didn't have a bad back, I'd be all over it... :idunno:

I did a point sparring tournament as a kid. I won but it put me off MA for a while.

Same here... I mean, I kept practicing, but from 1991 until just last year I had absolutely no desire to participate in a tournament. They disgusted me so much way back when that I didn't want to be associated with them ever again. I miss competing (having something to look forward to, to train for, to win), but not enough to really pursue it again.

Here's something i've learned from being in a few situations where I feared getting shanked from behind...

My teacher's teacher said once that we should do our best to avoid places where violence is likely to break out, requiring us to fight. Not because we are "th3 d32dly," but because it is irresonsible to deliberately look for trouble. Like Miyagi said in Karate Kid 912, "Miyagi no like fight. Somebody always get hurt." Might be him, might be you. Best way to avoid getting hurt is to not be where a fight could break out in the first place...

Not a bad plan, really...

 

[Kempojujutsu]

First the leg movement is a kick. the placement is acorrding to how you place it on your self. This is where you are to kick the attacker. When you kick the attacker his head tends to turn away from you. just like the kata.

 

[RRouuselot]

First the leg movement is a kick. the placement is acorrding to how you place it on your self. This is where you are to kick the attacker. When you kick the attacker his head tends to turn away from you. just like the kata.

The kick part is partially correct.
The foot can indicate where you are kicking, it can be a hook around the leg, it can be trapping his leg.
The face turning is to avoid getting head butted while employing a choke hold.