The value of kata and basics.

[ppko]

So what you're saying, is you have no answer to the points in the article?

No like I have always said that kata is very important because of what it maps out. Kata is not for fitness, or tradition but for self defense every move in a kata has different meanings (lock, blow, throw) and they map out on the body how to take out your opponent with one movement. Fights start the same today they did 1000 years ago a push, grab, or suckerpunch. If done properly as soon as you're touched the fight should be over in a few seconds.

PPKO
P.S. preferably 1 second

 

[Makalakumu]

Why are forms not 'Alive'?

by Matt Thornton

Taken from Straight Blast Gym Website

Believe it or not, there are still a few people out there that feel 'form', kata, or djuru training have some place for an athlete interested in performance. Why this belief still persists is a mystery, but lets see if we can lay the dead patterns to rest.*

I would say that it is more then a few, but few know how to correctly use kata.

The main reason people falsely believe forms have some sort of value is usually listed as "muscle memory". The idea that a move repeated enough times, becomes smoother, or more accessible during an altercation. Repeating a move over and over again in the air will do absolutely nothing for your reflexes or so called 'muscle memory'. In fact, repeating a move or series of moves over and over again in the same pattern and sequence will actually be counter productive to your bodies ability to respond quickly.*

The practice of kata or hyung does not help your muscle memory. The practice of its applications with a partner does. A kata is like a reference book for fighting applications and usually they are structured around an overarching principal to catagorize the applications.

First, there is no TIMING, without a resisting opponent in front of you. Since there is no timing to be had, your reflexes, or response time against a resisting opponent, will not change, increase, or be helped in the least.*

The author of this article is separating the practice of kata from the practice of kata. The actual form versus the applications cannot be separated to actually practice kata.

Second, there is no impact, as there is against a heavy bag. So there will be no benefit to your strength, body mechanics, or conditioning. In fact, your body mechanics may become altered in correctly due to the fact that you are not making impact against anything, but merely striking 'air'.*

Kata applications can be practiced on a heavy bag, hand mitts, or the wall if you like. Conditioning is part of kata training too.

Thirdly, even when shadowboxing (another comparison morticians like to make when making zombies), you never want to repeat the same series of movements to many times in a row! This is a basic rule all boxing coaches are very familiar with. Go to the well to many times and your opponent becomes 'wise' to your arsenal. An example would be a boxer whom always hooked off the jab. After the second attempt he becomes predictable, and easy to set up for a counter attack or knockout. This is why it's important to make sure your athletes shadowbox fluidly. Watch them to insure that they are NOT repeating the same sequence of movements, in the same order, over and over again.*

Variation and application from kata theme are also essential applications for kata training. A practicioner may take a single move from a kata and find 100 applications for it. That same person then takes techniques from that pile that best fit their body type.

One basic difference that can be seen between a JKD Concepts Instructor, and a performance orientated Coach, is the difference in patterns. JKD Concepts Instructors, and indeed most 'traditional' Martial Artists, are consistently looking to learn, memorize, and repeat more and more patterns. A performance orientated Coach is always looking to break patterns, and movements that are repeated in the same order. A Coach should instead be watching his athlete to insure that when shadowboxing, working the heavybag, or any other piece of equipment, that athlete is not always repeating the same route of movements or combinations. This makes a fighter robotic, stiff, predictable, and creates bad habits. There really is no justification for maintaining the antiquated bad methodology of 'form' training.*

To practice kata effectively, one must have good knowledge of the concepts of oyo and bunkai. I view this as a continuum of application with oyo being direct and bunkai being indirect from the move shown in the kata. When you move into the bunkai part of the continuum, there really are no set patterns and a good instructor of the traditional martial arts will alter their classes partner drills to deal with variation upon variation until you just react to change.

What about solo training?*

That's a good question and one I get asked allot. If you are blessed to have enough extra time after working your stand up, clinch and ground games against resisting opponents, then you should be concentrating on conditioning. Endurance training, resistance exercises, and stretching would all rank high on the list. Even reading a book would be a much better use of your time the memorizing and repeating a dead pattern. If you are grossly overweight then you should be working that endurance training daily. If you lack a good muscular physique, then you should be training that correctly in order to avoid energy. There is always plenty for us to be working on!*

Endurence training, resistance exercises, and stretching are all good parts of traditional martial arts training. Practicing kata can increase your flexibility, bring up your heart rate, and strengthen your body with pliometrics. Our bodies are not the same. Some body types have different physical fitness needs then others and certain techniques will work for some, but not all. Kata practice by oneself can be altered to fit personal physical fitness needs. For instance, if I wanted to work on my flexibility, I would choose kata that emphasize deep and low stances. If I wanted to work on my agility, I would practice kata with quick, complex balence moves that emphasize shifts in weight. If I wanted to work on endurence, I would practice all of my kata back to back.

Throw all the patterns and forms away. Stay fluid, and stay 'ALIVE'.


Article courtesy of Matt Thornton*

Traditional kata practice is anything but dead. I think that this sentiment comes from an incorrect understanding, by the West, of kata application. My instructor says that the old masters taught Americans like children. They learned the kata and the basics, but really didn't learn the real way to practice them. I would say that this falls neatly within the oriental paradigm of hiding knowledge behind many faces. A master pulls away masks for those who he feels are worthy of that knowledge.

Real kata practice is fluid and alive. It is constantly changing and forcing you to expand in different ways. Real kata practice is like water and every person like a valley. The water flows differently into the valley for each person.

upnorthkyosa

 

[Flatlander]

One basic difference that can be seen between a JKD Concepts Instructor, and a performance orientated Coach, is the difference in patterns. JKD Concepts Instructors, and indeed most 'traditional' Martial Artists, are consistently looking to learn, memorize, and repeat more and more patterns. A performance orientated Coach is always looking to break patterns, and movements that are repeated in the same order. A Coach should instead be watching his athlete to insure that when shadowboxing, working the heavybag, or any other piece of equipment, that athlete is not always repeating the same route of movements or combinations. This makes a fighter robotic, stiff, predictable, and creates bad habits.

This tells me the author is training students for sport, for drawn out fights. If I'm training for the 3-5 second self defense scenario, I won't have enough time to repeat a combination, and if I do, the other person won't have enough time to figure it out.

 

[ppko]

This tells me the author is training students for sport, for drawn out fights. If I'm training for the 3-5 second self defense scenario, I won't have enough time to repeat a combination, and if I do, the other person won't have enough time to figure it out.

well put

PPKO

 

[kenpo tiger]

I would say that it is more then a few, but few know how to correctly use kata.

The practice of kata or hyung does not help your muscle memory. The practice of its applications with a partner does. A kata is like a reference book for fighting applications and usually they are structured around an overarching principal to catagorize the applications.

The author of this article is separating the practice of kata from the practice of kata. The actual form versus the applications cannot be separated to actually practice kata.

Kata applications can be practiced on a heavy bag, hand mitts, or the wall if you like. Conditioning is part of kata training too.

Variation and application from kata theme are also essential applications for kata training. A practicioner may take a single move from a kata and find 100 applications for it. That same person then takes techniques from that pile that best fit their body type.

To practice kata effectively, one must have good knowledge of the concepts of oyo and bunkai. I view this as a continuum of application with oyo being direct and bunkai being indirect from the move shown in the kata. When you move into the bunkai part of the continuum, there really are no set patterns and a good instructor of the traditional martial arts will alter their classes partner drills to deal with variation upon variation until you just react to change.

Endurence training, resistance exercises, and stretching are all good parts of traditional martial arts training. Practicing kata can increase your flexibility, bring up your heart rate, and strengthen your body with pliometrics. Our bodies are not the same. Some body types have different physical fitness needs then others and certain techniques will work for some, but not all. Kata practice by oneself can be altered to fit personal physical fitness needs. For instance, if I wanted to work on my flexibility, I would choose kata that emphasize deep and low stances. If I wanted to work on my agility, I would practice kata with quick, complex balence moves that emphasize shifts in weight. If I wanted to work on endurence, I would practice all of my kata back to back.

Traditional kata practice is anything but dead. I think that this sentiment comes from an incorrect understanding, by the West, of kata application. My instructor says that the old masters taught Americans like children. They learned the kata and the basics, but really didn't learn the real way to practice them. I would say that this falls neatly within the oriental paradigm of hiding knowledge behind many faces. A master pulls away masks for those who he feels are worthy of that knowledge.

Real kata practice is fluid and alive. It is constantly changing and forcing you to expand in different ways. Real kata practice is like water and every person like a valley. The water flows differently into the valley for each person.

upnorthkyosa

Thank you for your explanation. The mask analogy is interesting.

We do a total of sixteen forms and sets in our dojo, which takes about fifteen minutes when done according to the application of each. It's quite a workout, as you pointed out, and i agree that that is really an important part of kata. I try not to blow through them, which is easy to do. Rather, I concentrate on getting the most out of each one - and work hardest on those I dislike or am not as proficient in. Same with our techniques, which are integral to the more advanced forms.

I'm curious as to which art you practice. I am not familiar with some of the terms you used and looked them up, but was unable to find oyo. Please explain. KT:asian:

 

[Makalakumu]

I'm curious as to which art you practice. I am not familiar with some of the terms you used and looked them up, but was unable to find oyo. Please explain. KT:asian:

Sir, you can check my profile and find out a lot about me. As far as oyo goes, I was taught that it means direct. Bunkai = indirect. Both of these pertain to hyung application.

 

[kenpo tiger]

Sir, you can check my profile and find out a lot about me. As far as oyo goes, I was taught that it means direct. Bunkai = indirect. Both of these pertain to hyung application.

It's Ma'am, and thank you for the explanation. KT:asian:

 

[The Kai]

Sir, you can check my profile and find out a lot about me. As far as oyo goes, I was taught that it means direct. Bunkai = indirect. Both of these pertain to hyung application.

Do you study a Korean or japanese based sysytem (oyo, bunkai are japaarese-hyung korean?)
Just Curious

 

[Makalakumu]

Do you study a Korean or japanese based sysytem (oyo, bunkai are japaarese-hyung korean?)
Just Curious

Although I train in a Korean system, Tangsoodo, I use Korean, Japanese, and Chinese in the dojo. Tangsoodo is a blended system with deep roots in China and Japan. It is my way of showing respect. :asian:

upnorthkyosa

 

[The Kai]

Sir, you can check my profile and find out a lot about me. As far as oyo goes, I was taught that it means direct. Bunkai = indirect. Both of these pertain to hyung application.

Well Hello fellow wisconsite!
No as far as I know the interpretations are correct, just wonder if there would be Korean equals?

 

[Kempojujutsu]

I believe it depends on how you use your training. Kata's can be good & they can be bad. I came from a karate system that use kata's just for dancing around. No bunkai was taught from it. The instructor had no idea what he was showning. I asked him why we did kata and chambered the hands on the hips. When we sparred we didn't do this. He couldn't answer my question. When I The only reason for learning it was belt requirements. When I moved on to Kempo, I found a great appreication to what the kata's really meant. I asked my Kempo instructor the same question about the hands chambered on the hips and got many different answers.

 

[Matt Stone]

Kata also shows what you are attacking and how you are attacking it, it is very usefull and a very good way to learn how to fight without having to fight.

You might want to rethink this comment, and then never utter it again… “Learning to fight without having to fight” makes as much sense as “learning to swim without swimming,” or “learning to ride a bike without riding a bike.” It is logical fallacy that such things can happen.

But to answer your question I believe that you should teach openly but still hold back some stuff for your higher ranking students and even more for just yourself at least until you pass on your school to someone else.

And this is why so many people know so little about their arts, because someone somewhere was setting him/herself up as a moral compass to decide “who is worthy.” This is why information is lost and valid systems die out.

Teach everything to everyone. If someone isn’t “worthy,” then it is unlikely that they will train hard enough or long enough to be able to use the super deadly stuff you have to teach them. In the end you are only selling the good students short.

No like I have always said that kata is very important because of what it maps out. Kata is not for fitness, or tradition but for self defense every move in a kata has different meanings (lock, blow, throw) and they map out on the body how to take out your opponent with one movement. Fights start the same today they did 1000 years ago a push, grab, or suckerpunch. If done properly as soon as you're touched the fight should be over in a few seconds.

Your view of kata is very narrow… Kata preserve far more than just fighting techniques. To limit your understanding of kata to simple strikes, locks, blows and throws is limiting what they have to teach you. Open your mind…

As for fights being over in a few seconds, it is possible but unlikely in most instances.

Just for you Hedge, my response to Matt Thornton’s narrow-mindedness -

Believe it or not, there are still a few people out there that feel 'form', kata, or djuru training have some place for an athlete interested in performance. Why this belief still persists is a mystery, but lets see if we can lay the dead patterns to rest.*

Many, many, many people practice kata. Unfortunately, fewer and fewer people understand what their purpose really is. This ignorance and blind adherence to tradition is what Thornton disagrees with, and rightfully so.

The main reason people falsely believe forms have some sort of value is usually listed as "muscle memory". The idea that a move repeated enough times, becomes smoother, or more accessible during an altercation. Repeating a move over and over again in the air will do absolutely nothing for your reflexes or so called 'muscle memory'. In fact, repeating a move or series of moves over and over again in the same pattern and sequence will actually be counter productive to your bodies ability to respond quickly.*

I’d say that he lacks sufficient research in this. It is a science fact that the more times a movement is repeated, whatever that movement is, the smoother the neural response becomes, making the movement more deeply ingrained and less clumsily executed. Just science there, no mystery. According to Thornton’s theory, then, boxers should cease all shadow boxing and wrestlers shouldn’t practice sit outs unless they are doing so against an opponent, right? I suspect there are plenty of boxing and wrestling coaches that’d disagree, as well as plenty of boxers and wrestlers that would find that such training did actually contribute to their success to one degree or another.

First, there is no TIMING, without a resisting opponent in front of you. Since there is no timing to be had, your reflexes, or response time against a resisting opponent, will not change, increase, or be helped in the least.*

In Yiliquan, Distance, Timing and Rhythm are the three cornerstones of our technique. Without a thorough understanding of these concepts, the rest is a bunch of TKD. As far as timing goes, we have three categories (for that matter, there are three categories of each concept): First Timing, Second Timing and Mutual Timing. What Thornton is talking about is what we refer to as Mutual Timing, that interplay between the attacker and the defender. However, First Timing (that of the individual) can be trained solo. When doing kata, find the timing and rhythm of each section… The katashouldn’t be done at an even beat. Strike in an off beat, end the technique with broken rhythm.

Second, there is no impact, as there is against a heavy bag. So there will be no benefit to your strength, body mechanics, or conditioning. In fact, your body mechanics may become altered in correctly due to the fact that you are not making impact against anything, but merely striking 'air'.*

That is what makiwara training and heavy bag training are for. Any style that fails to practice techniques against a resilient target fails to test their body alignment. But that isn’t the purpose of kataanyway…

Thirdly, even when shadowboxing (another comparison morticians like to make when making zombies), you never want to repeat the same series of movements to many times in a row! This is a basic rule all boxing coaches are very familiar with. Go to the well to many times and your opponent becomes 'wise' to your arsenal. An example would be a boxer whom always hooked off the jab. After the second attempt he becomes predictable, and easy to set up for a counter attack or knockout. This is why it's important to make sure your athletes shadowbox fluidly. Watch them to insure that they are NOT repeating the same sequence of movements, in the same order, over and over again.*

Agreed. Again, not the purpose behind kata. In addition to providing training on technique, kata also serve as textbooks with which to codify and communicate combinations of techniques, angles of application, etc. Saying that a boxer never repeats punches and combinations is ridiculous. A boxer has two arms, with straight punches, hooks and jabs from each. That small number of strikes can produce a vast array of combinations, however unless the boxer has a mind like a computer, the huge number of combinations are going to be well beyond his (or his coach’s) ability to monitor. The boxer will, in the end, repeat his techniques, and it is the repetition that makes the techniques better.

If a karate or taekwondo, kempo or kung fu student wants to train his technique alone, he can. If he wants to train it with combinations, he can do that too. If he wants to communicate a lesson he learned, incorporating Distance, Timing, Rhythm, and the theory and strategy of his style, he does so in kata. In this fashion, lessons are preserved in a physical manner instead of relying solely on word of mouth (which will be corrupted in short order based on the understanding of the person speaking).

One basic difference that can be seen between a JKD Concepts Instructor, and a performance orientated Coach, is the difference in patterns. JKD Concepts Instructors, and indeed most 'traditional' Martial Artists, are consistently looking to learn, memorize, and repeat more and more patterns. A performance orientated Coach is always looking to break patterns, and movements that are repeated in the same order. A Coach should instead be watching his athlete to insure that when shadowboxing, working the heavybag, or any other piece of equipment, that athlete is not always repeating the same route of movements or combinations. This makes a fighter robotic, stiff, predictable, and creates bad habits. There really is no justification for maintaining the antiquated bad methodology of 'form' training.*

Interesting that he brings up JKD, the self styled “style of no style.” The repetition of “patterns” or combinations is no different than any other fighter any time throughout history. You repeat something to make sure you can do it, can understand it, and can apply it. Then you move on to another pattern. Eventually, you exhaust the possible permutations of punch/kick/etc., and your brain has developed the neural pathways to allow you to perform those movements smoothly. It doesn’t make you “stiff” or “robotic.” Those are nice Bruce Lee Buzzwords often used by his nutriders to decry traditional training. But stiffness is developed (or maintained) by not repeating a technique enough to make that technique instinctive and internalized by the student. Robotic describes a lack of understanding of how a combination or one kind or another is applied to the opponent (and comes more from a lack of partner practice than from practicing combinations)

What about solo training?*

That's a good question and one I get asked allot. If you are blessed to have enough extra time after working your stand up, clinch and ground games against resisting opponents, then you should be concentrating on conditioning. Endurance training, resistance exercises, and stretching would all rank high on the list. Even reading a book would be a much better use of your time the memorizing and repeating a dead pattern. If you are grossly overweight then you should be working that endurance training daily. If you lack a good muscular physique, then you should be training that correctly in order to avoid energy. There is always plenty for us to be working on!*

But all the strength in the world, all the speed, mean little if your technique ends after one shot, or if your combination is a muddled mess.

Throw all the patterns and forms away. Stay fluid, and stay 'ALIVE'.

The battle cry of someone who either a) had a teacher that didn’t understand kata well enough to teach it, causing a student frustration or b) didn’t practice enough to be able to see the usefulness of kata in the first place.

See, my teacher was a JKD chapter leader once upon a time. He was a contemporary of Brucie “back in the day,” and after almost 19 years of training in Yiliquan I can see where elements of JKD though may have infiltrated into our style’s overall theory and application. However, when I read the Tao of JKD, and Bruce rails against the “classical mess,” I sincerely don’t see that he was saying kata practice was bad (especially when he was known to practice Wing Chun, Taijiquan and other kata regularly), but rather learning a set response to a set attack caused the “robotic stiffness” that JKD nutriders espouse.

 

[hedgehogey]

Ah, but matt, once it becomes as spontaneous as you claim your training is, it ceases to be kata. I define Kata as prearranged patterns of techniques generally done in the air. What use for a fighter is a PREARRANGED set of movements? It's guaranteed to cause stiffness!

And boxers and wrestlers do not practice their favorite techniques over and over in the air (i've known a few). Even when shadowboxing it's always spontaneaous. A PREARRANGED pattern doesn't work for a boxer or wrestler. Once again, even though there are only so many ways to hit, you still must be always spontaneous!

However, First Timing (that of the individual) can be trained solo. When doing kata, find the timing and rhythm of each section…

But WHAT timing are you training? You're only training your ability to hit air! Using a prearranged sequence of techniques will only help you use that sequence and won't help spontaneity at all. It's only dry land swimming!

The katashouldn’t be done at an even beat. Strike in an off beat, end the technique with broken rhythm.

That doesn't make it spontaneous.

In this fashion, lessons are preserved in a physical manner instead of relying solely on word of mouth (which will be corrupted in short order based on the understanding of the person speaking).

Right. That was kata's purpose, which it admirably fulfilled in the days before widespread literacy. But it's NOT fighting practice.

But stiffness is developed (or maintained) by not repeating a technique enough to make that technique instinctive and internalized by the student. Robotic describes a lack of understanding of how a combination or one kind or another is applied to the opponent (and comes more from a lack of partner practice than from practicing combinations)

Depends on how the technique is repeated. Stiffness WILL result if the technique is only practiced in the air. Stiffness won't result if practiced on a resisting opponent.

But all the strength in the world, all the speed, mean little if your technique ends after one shot, or if your combination is a muddled mess.

You greatly underestimate the value of conditioning.

The battle cry of someone who either a) had a teacher that didn’t understand kata well enough to teach it, causing a student frustration or b) didn’t practice enough to be able to see the usefulness of kata in the first place.

Yes, of course, because anyone who critisizes kata is obviously either a bad student or had a bad teacher. Way to go ad hominem.

 

[Flatlander]

Hedgehogey,

A PREARRANGED pattern doesn't work for a boxer or wrestler. Once again, even though there are only so many ways to hit, you still must be always spontaneous!

Nobody is arguing this point. Patterns are not spontaneous.

But WHAT timing are you training?

Irregular, in attack, indecodable cadence.

Matt Stone said:

The kata shouldn’t be done at an even beat

hedgehogey replies:

That doesn't make it spontaneous

Who claims that it did? You are countering an invisible argument. Shadowboxing?

Stiffness WILL result if the technique is only practiced in the air.

Just pointing out that the word only in this context is your own addition. Nobody else makes that claim. Still shadowboxing.

You greatly underestimate the value of conditioning.

I doubt he does. Though I'm sure he understands the value of subtle micro movements, of balance in all motion.

Yes, of course, because anyone who critisizes kata is obviously either a bad student or had a bad teacher. Way to go ad hominem.

Perhaps a better summation would have been - Anyone who criticizes the value of kata likely doesn't really understand what kata is, or what it means.
Similarily, anyone who proclaims their way (in anything) is better than any other way, without fully understanding every possible way, speaks from ignorance.

I mean no disrespect here dude, but you're coming from a limited, and unjustifiable point of view.

 

[rmcrobertson]

I liked matt Stone's note, which seeemed almost entirely sensible to me.

I guarantee that there are those who have done away with the kata and all the prerranged sets and techniques, who if you look at what they do and how they teach are as dead, as repetitive, as anything they are criticizing.

I'd point to the dry, deadrecitation of shibboleths such as, "a PREARRANGED pattern doesn't work for a bozer or a wrestler."

Not only do boxers train prearranged patters, but you can see them running them in every single fight.

I'd also refer you to Gene le Bell's "Handbook of Judo," which insists upon the necessity of randori, and insists upon the absolute necessity of learning set patterns, so that the student avoids practicing, "his own mistakes again and again."

 

[Matt Stone]

Ah, but matt, once it becomes as spontaneous as you claim your training is, it ceases to be kata.

A quote attributed to Gichin Funakoshi was "Enter by kata, exit from kata." And it doesn't get much more kata oriented, nor more "traditional," than Shotokan...

And though this preempts my responses to the rest of your post, this kind of sums up the entire purpose of kata in the first place... It is a starting point, a springboard. We begin the study of mathematics with simple equations, addition and subtraction, right? Then we move onto more complex equation, multiplication, division. Then further we move into imaginary numbers, variables, exponents, fractions. Ultimately, we go into geometry and algebra (full of "prearranged patterns") and find ways to apply the principles of those disciplines to any combination of factors. At some point, should we pursue this far enough, we depart from standard math and end up in a completely imaginary world represented by far more letter and symbols than numbers, and things just get weird from that point on...

Same with martial arts, same with forms. You start with something seemingly rigid and basic. You develop your understanding of the underlying principles, eventually substituting the "numbers" for variable substitutions, and apply those new "equations" to different situations to see if they still work. Eventually, though you never stop using simple, basic techniques, and you would use such techniques and drills to teach someone how to reach your level, you are now far beyond the actual "number crunching" of things of such limited scope and are well into the more theoretically based application of technique...

I define Kata as prearranged patterns of techniques generally done in the air.

Fair enough. Though I do mine on the ground... I haven't learned to hover yet. YET! :uhyeah:

What use for a fighter is a PREARRANGED set of movements?

Well, so they can understand the relation of one technique to another... Haven't you ever run "high/low, low/high?" What about slipping a rope and throwing a 1-2 on each side as you come up? When I trained with a boxer back home, these were some of the drills he attributed his success in the ring to... Before you face off against another human, you have to throw a technique "in the air" to see if it is being done correctly. Throwing a "newbie" into the ring with someone when you have no idea whether the newbie is executing the technique correctly is absolutely assinine.

It's guaranteed to cause stiffness!

What is this "stiffness" you keep referring to? Not literal physical stiffness, I'm sure, but I'm guessing some kind of hesitation in response when confronted with a live opponent? I disagree entirely.

And boxers and wrestlers do not practice their favorite techniques over and over in the air (i've known a few). Even when shadowboxing it's always spontaneaous.

So if a boxer repeats a single punch in any given time frame wherein he/she is shadowboxing, he/she is not repeating their techniques? I'm having trouble following this thinking...

If a boxer drills jab-punch-hook, changes it up on each side to develop bilateral skill, then mixes in some uppercuts, or does jab-jab-hook-jab, or whatever, they are still going to eventually repeat a combination. When I trained with a boxer, we started out with jab-punch-cross, to keep it simple. Then jab-punch-hook, jab-punch-uppercut, jab-punch-uppercut-hook, etc. This was to teach the mechanics behind the combination, to coordinate the footwork with the handwork, etc. If that isn't repetition, I don't know what is. And by your definition, repeating a single one of those combinations amoutns to a mini-kata of sorts...

A PREARRANGED pattern doesn't work for a boxer or wrestler.

I'm starting to think that by "prearranged" you mean "BG #1 throws a punch and then GG #1 does ABCD." If so, you are dead on the money and I have no argument whatsoever. However, your argument is starting to split - we are discussing the usefulness of kata, not the uselessness of waza that are based upon a supposition of specific attack(s).

Once again, even though there are only so many ways to hit, you still must be always spontaneous!

Well aren't you a regular Sherlock! :uhyeah: I mean that humorously... Of course you must be "spontaneous." It'd be absolutely ridiculous to expect a person to counter solely with "block-hit-kick" no matter the attack. However, a "block-hit-kick" combination can be much more than just "block-hit-kick."

Consider the following: right hand sweeps/checks incoming technique as it withdraws to the shoulder/chest area; left hand comes underneath to an inside block (hand in fist, palm up, radial side of left forearm is blocking surface) position; right hand executes reverse punch.

This particular combination is a favorite of mine, for a lot of reasons. There is the obvious check-block-punch when applied against a punch on either side. Should the punch be with the opponent's right arm (the one on your left side), the inside block can be used not as a block, but to wind under the punch and capture it in an offside half-nelson (we call the technique "winding arm"), followed by the punch to soften the attacker. Done against a left punch (on your right side), the right sweeping hand can "bitchslap" the opponent, followed by a backfist to the noggin', then a punch to wherever you like. Further, as kata interpretation can sometimes be a little symbolic, against a wrist grab (and that happens so often in real life, right?) the palm sweep/inside block can be taken to represent the turning of the opponent's arm with his elbow upward, setting up for the arm bar (represented by the punch).

That's just a few off the top of my head. There is also angle of attack to consider, multiple attackers, high/low levels, etc. Lots of stuff to work on just out of that one little combination. And it isn't about "prearranged" responses... Just do the technique. What the opponent does isn't all that important - he just gets caught in your movement.

But WHAT timing are you training? You're only training your ability to hit air! Using a prearranged sequence of techniques will only help you use that sequence and won't help spontaneity at all. It's only dry land swimming!

But what you seem to be failing to grasp is that kata isn't the "be all/end all" to training. It is one aspect of training. Other aspects include applying the lessons codified in kata against live, resisting opponents. If that isn't included, then the school is missing the whole point of kata in the first place.

That doesn't make it spontaneous.

Nobody ever said kata was spontaneous. Since kata are "books" of a sort, and "books" are hardly spontaneous, it is a flawed expectation to want them to be spontaneous in the first place.

Right. That was kata's purpose, which it admirably fulfilled in the days before widespread literacy. But it's NOT fighting practice.

And you'll find that I am one of the first people to call out some numbskull who thinks he/she can learn to fight by kata alone.

Depends on how the technique is repeated. Stiffness WILL result if the technique is only practiced in the air. Stiffness won't result if practiced on a resisting opponent.

Yet again, kata isn't meant to be the sole method of practice. You know that bunkai thing folks talk about along with kata? That'd be the part where you learn what all that waving about of hands and feet is supposed to represent, and then you grab a buddy and "represent it" all over him...

You greatly underestimate the value of conditioning.

Hardly. I am in the gym MTWF in the AM, then MTWF over lunch doing kettlebell workouts. This is in addition to my martial training. I think you might overestimate conditioning... I had a student once who was far stronger and fitter than I was. But he had no technique to speak of. When he learned technique he became quite a challenge, and could have managed quite well as a fighter with only a small repertoire of techniques (due to his strength and endurance). But I was still able to defeat his attacks out of experience, a larger repertoire of technique, and good old fashioned cheating...

Yes, of course, because anyone who critisizes kata is obviously either a bad student or had a bad teacher. Way to go ad hominem.

No, it isn't an ad hominem attack at all. It is a statement of fact. You cited above that you thought I underestimated conditioning. Hardly. But if I knew nothing at all about conditioning, and then stated loudly and proudly that it was unnecessary, wouldn't one of the first reactions be that my opinion was firmly based on my ignorance, not my knowledge and understanding? That'd be the flaw in the logic of the anti-kata argument(s)... They stem primarily from people whose understanding of the utility of kata is limited at best, if it exists at all.

Nice post, though.

 

[Matt Stone]

Not only do boxers train prearranged patters, but you can see them running them in every single fight.

I'd also refer you to Gene le Bell's "Handbook of Judo," which insists upon the necessity of randori, and insists upon the absolute necessity of learning set patterns, so that the student avoids practicing, "his own mistakes again and again."

Nicely played.

:asian:

 

[Ippon Ken]

Ah, but matt, once it becomes as spontaneous as you claim your training is, it ceases to be kata. I define Kata as prearranged patterns of techniques generally done in the air. What use for a fighter is a PREARRANGED set of movements? It's guaranteed to cause stiffness!.

Who are you, a nonkarate-ka, to define what kata is or isn't? I know Austin (one million people, one highway and one crooked-assed, convoluted state government). There are no decent karate schools in Austin. In fact there is only one or two decent MAs schools there period. South/Central Texas is definitely not known for its MAs, Mixed or Classical.

And boxers and wrestlers do not practice their favorite techniques over and over in the air (i've known a few). Even when shadowboxing it's always spontaneaous. A PREARRANGED pattern doesn't work for a boxer or wrestler. Once again, even though there are only so many ways to hit, you still must be always spontaneous!.

But you are talking crap again. When you shadowbox you mix and match movement and punches (1-2, 1-3,1-4-2), and often wind up doing the same combos. You obviously have never boxed either. I did, for many years before I started real fighting MAs in the Philippines. In street fights, if you've ever been in one, whoever connects with a good punch first wins, usually. That usually is within seconds and the fight doesn't usually last beyond a minute. How would you know this though? Obviously you have never fought on the street---- either.

But WHAT timing are you training? You're only training your ability to hit air! Using a prearranged sequence of techniques will only help you use that sequence and won't help spontaneity at all. It's only dry land swimming! .

You're visualizing, genius. When you practice shooting threes in basketball, you don't have resisting opponent running in your face most of the time (a defender). You just play around the world and try and hit from numerous spots beyond the arc, or you practice shooting from your strongest spots.

Also, if you don't have access to a goal you can practice getting proper rotation on your jumpshot just by letting the ball spin off your fingers and straight up into the air. This does help one with using proper form to shoot a jumpshot. Maybe if Shaq was taught this drill as a kid he would know how to shoot a jumper.

Same when pros do light NFL practices. Some rarely do full-pads, full-force practice. They just run through the plays and get the speed, distancing and timing down. C'mon you Texican, you should know this football stuff!

When I took swim classes as a kid we practiced the Australian Crawl and back strokes outside the pool, at the pools edge, then across the pool. Kihon, kata and kumite. You are right about one thing. You gotta get wet in order to learn to swim. Like you have to do real karate with real kata and 2-man drills in order to speak on what is a-dead and what is a-live in kata and karate training.

Right. That was kata's purpose, which it admirably fulfilled in the days before widespread literacy. But it's NOT fighting practice..

Uhhh, yes it is. BTW who the heck is Matt Thornton? Some broke Slim Shady wannabe? Whassup' with that platinum blond doo, bruh'? Hollyweird fo' sheez'!

WTF does Matt know about real karate? He ain't seen it in LA, 'cause there ain't even one legit karate dojo in the entire city. Now go to SD or SF and you'd see some real dojos (very few still). Just like the majority of movies, music and tits in LA-LA land, the majority of schools are fake and the majority of fake fools that live there do ADHD hobbies and MAs. Time is money! I know because I use to do business there at least 4 months out of the year.

What does Matt know about muscle memory, say vs. a real physician and MAs cat like, well ME! Nathan!!! Repetition is the key. Teaching Golgi Tendons and Muscle Spindles "what to do" and where to go" is the key. Kata repetition teaches this. Not with all kata in all styles though, because most styles of karate have lost there intent and proper biomechanics. You have to search. You aren't gonna find decent karate sensei in most dojo. You have got to look and find. You can learn to fight real well with MMAs, but you won't be an artist. Art denotes refinement, something beyond the mediocre and commonplace. No matter what the MOMA says or displays!

Depends on how the technique is repeated. Stiffness WILL result if the technique is only practiced in the air. Stiffness won't result if practiced on a resisting opponent.



You greatly underestimate the value of conditioning..

Most good karate-ka need to be in streetfighting shape, not marathon ring fighting shape. Plus, a lot of karate-ka I train with are well over 6 foot and 220 pounds and in great shape. You better be Royce with 30 years of GJJ if you want to beat some of those cats with "hugging". In our ryuha we like to "hug" a lot too.

Look Ha-edge-ho-gi, these same ideas you old UG foools use to spout are dead. MMAs works for the elite few, not the everyday many. Your ideas about MMA's effectiveness for street purposes are straight up wrong! Your MMAs fever will never catch on with the average Joe, and I guarantee you that your school(s) in South and Central Texas will be dead in 2 years. Why don't you have one here in SA? Is it because there are too many folks here who aren't your typical redneck, backwater Big D or Boostin' Houston cracker types? Where's a Machado school or even one legit BJJ or MMAs place? Is it because you have military cats from everywhere here who have seen real fighting and MAs around the world? Come on down to SA and see what happens. We gots real fighters here.

Yes, of course, because anyone who critisizes kata is obviously either a bad student or had a bad teacher. Way to go ad hominem.

Now you're getting it, Einstein! Probably more of the latter than the former.

BTW I still roll when I go out to LA. I'm friends with Ryron Gracie and Caique and enjoy the fun that is entailed in GJJ. Understand what your enemy might know. Learn about others, but have a good foundation in a real traditional MA like GJJ, Judo or good karate. This doesn't mean you should become mediocre at everything and never truly proficient at one thing.

Don't get me started on JKD !

 

[Matt Stone]

Who are you, a nonkarate-ka, to define what kata is or isn't?

I'd say he has every right to question the practice of kata or any other aspect of training that so many people lay claim to having mystical impact on their martial skills.

No touch KOs, pressure point fighting, learning to fight without fighting, needing no strength to effect technique, etc. These are all common "urban legends" that delude the ignorant masses. It is right that someone should question the validity of the more questionable claims.

As for Hedge being the one to ask? To quote Buddha, "the self that requires assistance cannot be the self that provides assistance." So if some mini-mall UFC wannabe who alleges that his kata practice is all he needs to make him uber-deadly needs to be "re-educated," I doubt he'll discover it all by his lonesome... And if he has students that he is passing that crap on to, I doubt seriously that, short of a rather violent and painful beating at the hands of someone that knows better, they will discover it on their own either.

So Hedge has every right to question, and it is a damn good thing that someone takes to task the claims of others. The ignorant cannot police our arts - we must police them ourselves. Those that do not know can be taught. Those that can teach have a duty to do so.

Now, that doesn't mean kata practice is everyone's cup of tea. Fine. So be it. They can pursue training in other arts. Nobody ever said kata (in the conventional sense) was mandatory nor essential to developing fighting skill, just that it is still a valuable tool.

But we cannot countenance a continued misunderstanding of the real role kata plays in overall training.

Enjoy.

 

[Ippon Ken]

Word, Matt.


Yeah he can question, be he can't define or tell others what is inherently good or bad about kata. Obviously he is without a clue.

Don't make me get a-LIVE!!!!